Kent Hovind's White House Sponsored Petition for Review!

[Paths of the Sea]

I got tired of waiting and went ahead and set up a White House sponsored
petition to have Kent Hovind's case reviewed by the Obama administration.

Here's the direct link:

[Moderator: Link removed due to nature of thread turning into a religious-based issue]

We just need 25,000 signatures within 30 days in order to demand that the Obama
administration publicly address the issue.

I think it would be kinda neat if the Obama administration were compelled to address the issues raised by Hovind; especially if it got done around April 15, 2013.

Would you think so, too?

Sincerely,
Maury Enthusiast!

[fortinbras]

Howcome he gets to post his futile petition link, and I can't!??

MY petition is every bit as futile and impractical as his!! [Moderator: Removed link that was politically based and irrelevant to tax scams]

[Montana Notasovrun]

Howcome he gets to post his futile petition link, and I can't!??

MY petition is every bit as futile and impractical as his!! [Moderator: removed link that was politically based and not related to tax scams

Yours has more merit and more probability of success!

[Paths of the Sea]

Hovind supporters put up a privately sponsored petition some time ago that's got about 16,000 signers.

That link is:

http://freehovind.com/petition/view

It might be interesting if it turns out that Hovind's supporters are too paranoid to show up for the White House sponsored effort even though Obama is pledged to consider Hovind's case if they get 25,000 signatures by the end of this month.

Also, it may be that they fear the consideration that would be given to the case if Obama were to actually give it consideration.

Their efforts, it may be, are great fund raisers and public relations for the anti-government, young-earther creation-science constituencies, but they do NOT really want such high level, public consideration of who Kent Hovind is and what he has been up to.

Here again for ready reference is the White House sponsored effort:

[Moderator: Removed link to petition site]

SIncerely,
Maury Enthusiast!

[The Observer]

Howcome he gets to post his futile petition link, and I can't!??

MY petition is every bit as futile and impractical as his!! [Moderator: Removed link that was politically based and irrelevant to tax scams]

Fortinbras, I think you know why your petition topic was removed. And trying to sneak your link back into another unrelated topic puts you into the same company as Harvester.

But on the off-chamce that you don't understand, here it is again. Jay and Demo have been very clear that the political and religious discussion here on Quatloos are a thing of the past and will not be allowed. There are a number of free websites and forums out there where you can try to drum up support for your petition. But this is not one of those sites. So please follow the rules and avoid having your posts edited, censored or deleted.

[Quixote]

I don't see the point of the petition. If it does not get 25,000 signatures, Hovind's supporters will blame that on a conspiracy to hide the truth. If it gets the 25,000 sigs and is disposed of quietly, that will also be seen as proof of a conspiracy. If it disposed of publicly with careful reasoning and a complete explanation as to why Hovind was correctly convicted, Hovind's supporters will say that such an outcome was inevitable because the DOJ did the review.

[ashlynne39]

I don't see the point of the petition. If it does not get 25,000 signatures, Hovind's supporters will blame that on a conspiracy to hide the truth. If it gets the 25,000 sigs and is disposed of quietly, that will also be seen as proof of a conspiracy. If it disposed of publicly with careful reasoning and a complete explanation as to why Hovind was correctly convicted, Hovind's supporters will say that such an outcome was inevitable because the DOJ did the review.

Its just a way to further mock Hovind - possibly for his tax nonsense, but I suspect more likely for his beliefs in creation science. Hopefully it is for the former though.

[The Observer]

Its just a way to further mock Hovind - possibly for his tax nonsense, but I suspect more likely for his beliefs in creation science. Hopefully it is for the former though.

If it turns out the petition is just to mock Hovind over his religious beliefs then I will be removing this topic since it has nothing to do with tax scams and protesting. Much of the conversation here about Hovind lately has had little to do with his tax conviction and more about whether he is entitled to receive the exemptions for being a minister. But if the conversation starts turning into a religious one, then the topic will be deleted.

[Pottapaug1938]

Whatever the merits or drawbacks of the Hovind petition, I don't see any reason to address them here. All I care about is how the courts view Hovind's various maneuvers; and I don't want the White House or, for that matter Congress, meddling in the judicial process. If Hovind is being treated unfairly, his remedy should lie within the judicial branch -- at least until final conviction.

[Paths of the Sea]

One of Kent Hovind's FaceBook pages can be found here:

http://www.facebook.com/drkenthovind?ref=ts&fref=ts

I posted links to the petition there, as well as invitation to Hovind's followers to sign up.

I also posted similar invitations to a variety of other Hovind related pages.

Paul Taylor, Eric Hovind's "right-hand-man", responded directly to my YAHOO! discussion list indicating he did not like the idea of the petition; which might explain why "we" should not expect Hovind's supporters to be signing up. Each can draw their own conclusions from how the exercise might eventually turn out.

On the tax issues underlying all of this, one Ed Umpervitch popped off out of nowhere and asked me on Kent's FaceBook page whether I thought I was a "public" or "private" person; no explanation, no context, no definitions.

Of course, I kinda saw what was coming, and joined that effort and we have had some exchanges about all of that; most recently with Ed indicating he may be gone for a couple of days but that he's got yet something else to say to me.

I am trying to preserve the discussion at my YAHOO! site; I have learned not to trust adversarial sites to do so.

Anyway, if you want to look at what Ed has to say about "public" and "private" and have any comments, that would be welcome. Ed has quite an Internet presence regarding his views about such things as they relate to tax matters and I think he's somewhat of an activist with the Constitutional Party.

The discussion on Kent's FaceBook page noted above took place under the entry for Kent's December 21, 2012 link share reference to Kent's separate blog entry.

Sincerely,
Maury Enthusiast!

[Paths of the Sea]

Here is how the criminal tax evasion of Kent Hovind and, by implication, his wife, is justified by the Creation Science Hall of Fame that has just upped his status from honorable mention to “living inductee”:

——————————————————————-

http://creationsciencehalloffame.org/li ... nt-hovind/

Living Inductees

Kent Hovind

(excerpts)

The case of US v. Kent Hovind, from the Creation Science Hall of Fame:

The Creation Science Hall of Fame believes that Kent is in jail out of principle, and not deceit as per our discovery.

Kent Hovind is a tax protester. His is only one of many tax protests that Americans, from time to time, have lodged in the federal courts.

Did Kent make mistakes during his attempt to prove his point?

Yes, and he admits to them.
None of us are perfect.

What the judicial system calls “tax crimes” was an attempt to invalidate the tax structure. In America at least, the simplest way to get standing to invalidate a law as unconstitutional is to break said law and suffer punishment for said breach.

Kent Hovind gambled that he would find a righteous judge.

He lost.

And his experience bears witness to us all that our entire national judiciary is willing to accept disagreements on principle as illegal acts worthy of punishment.

This is why the Creation Science Hall of Fame believes that Dr. Kent Hovind is in jail out of principle and not deceit and that he should be honored, especially among the Christians who believe in a super natural creation as described in Genesis by God.

———————————————
———————————————

[LaVidaRoja]

Structuring currency transactions and underreporting of income are certainly "time-honored" methods of protesting a tax system. Didn't Thoreau do that?
I guess Hovind felt Thoreaus method of correctly reporting his taxes and then refusing to pay might not catch the government's eye as quickly as filing a false return would.

[ashlynne39]

Its just a way to further mock Hovind - possibly for his tax nonsense, but I suspect more likely for his beliefs in creation science. Hopefully it is for the former though.

If it turns out the petition is just to mock Hovind over his religious beliefs then I will be removing this topic since it has nothing to do with tax scams and protesting. Much of the conversation here about Hovind lately has had little to do with his tax conviction and more about whether he is entitled to receive the exemptions for being a minister. But if the conversation starts turning into a religious one, then the topic will be deleted.

I appreciate the comment Observer. I have no issue with discussions of Hovinds idiotic tax machinations. But it seems to me lately that too many of the posts about him are started and continued to discuss (and clearly mock) his creation science beliefs and what the creation science hall of fame is doing. I just think that is innapropriate and unnecessary.

[Paths of the Sea]

(I)t seems to me lately that too many of the posts about him are started and continued to discuss (and clearly mock) his creation science beliefs and what the creation science hall of fame is doing. I just think that is innapropriate and unnecessary.

Inappropriate?
Unnecessary?

I beg to differ.

We have just seen how the Creation Science Hall of Fame has officially, publicly defended the tax crimes of Kent Hovind and, by implication, his wife Jo.

I would not, at this point, separate the promotion of tax evasion such as Kent Hovind is famous for from Kent Hovind and the Creation Science Hall of Fame and its Board of Directors. If the Hall and its Directors want to be treated otherwise, they need to be busy about taking a different course.

Terry A. Hurlbut, a Hall director, is rather famous around the Internet in promoting Hovind-like positions. Here's one recent message I have personally documented from Terry, recently:

-----------------------------------------------------

From: Terry A. Hurlbut (temlakos@...)
To: Robert Baty (rlbaty@...)
CC: creationfacts@...
CC: datheke2@...
CC: fwepboyd@...
CC: joseph@...
CC: seeevidence@...
Date: Thursday, December 20, 2012 13:55:54 -0500

Subject: Re: Kent Hovind

Just a minute, neighbor.

Did you say that you were a retired agent
of the IRS?

Let me remind you, then, of what your
predecessor Zacchaeus said in his apology
to Jesus Christ:

"I will give half I own in charity. And if
I have 'shown the fig' on anyone, I will pay
him back four times as much!"

The Greek verb, rendered "to defraud", is
sycophantein, or literally, "to show the fig."
It goes back to a practice by corrupt customs
agents in ancient Corinth, charged with enforcing
a ban on the export of figs. They would plant figs
on people and then shake them down for an extra
customs duty they did not actually owe. The Greeks
coined a word for that: sycophanteo, meaning "I
show the fig." And it means more than merely to
defraud. It means to trump up evidence.

Now whether you agree with him or not, Kent Hovind
charges that the IRS has been "showing the fig" on
the American people since its inception. And I am
not satisfied that his arguments have gotten the
hearing they deserved.

Furthermore, I consider your loyalty to your former
agency misplaced. I put it to you that your
colleagues in that agency received training in how
to "show the fig."

I recall that Commissioner Donald Alexander once
had to give an account of his agency's activities
to Congress. "This is a democracy, Mr. Alexander,
need I remind you?" cried an outraged Congressman.
Mr. Alexander said:

"I think you and I understand the realities of this
modern world. The fact of the matter is that we have
so few agents, and so little time, that the only way
to keep the people in line, the only way to keep them
honest and paying their taxes is to make them afraid."

Sir, when you left the IRS, you ought to have repented
of the mission of the IRS.

A man cannot serve two masters.

Usually that means "one cannot serve God and the
'god' of money."

But it can also mean, "one cannot serve God and
government both."

I will leave you with this quote from Thomas Jefferson:

"To secure [the inalienable] rights [of men],
governments are instituted among men, deriving their
just powers from the consent of the governed. And
whenever any government becomes destructive of these
ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish
it, and to institute a new government..."

Terry A. Hurlbut

-------------------------------
-------------------------------

I let forum operators do as they please. Some times I fit in; sometimes not.

In the context of the present discussion, I don't think it necessary to separate young-earth creation-science promoters generally from Kent Hovind and from the Creation Science Hall of Fame and its directors.

Sincerely,
Maury Enthusiast!

[Paths of the Sea]

I wasn't aware of it earlier, but I have come to realize that there are numerous petitions around the Internet regarding Hovind; both for and against.

Following are what appears to be the primary, Hovind supported petition to get the President of the United State's attention to his case and my White House sponsored petition. In both cases, the explanatory material is excluded.

(1) Private Hovind Petition (16,000 signers since 2007):

http://freehovind.com/petition/view

> President of the United States of America;
>
> We, the undersigned petitioners, request
> the complete pardon and release from prison
> of Kent E. Hovind.
>
> We believe Hovind to be completely innocent
> of the alleged crime of "tax evasion", and
> furthermore believe Hovind's 10 year sentence
> to be patently unjust and based upon an effort
> to silence his ministry.
>
> In support of Hovind's innocence, we have
> annexed hereto several memorandums and affidavits.

(2) White House Sponsored Hovind Petition (3 since 1/1/13):

[Moderator: Removed link to petition site]

> We petition the Obama administration to:
>
> review the case of Kent Hovind, #06452-017,
> his claim of being a "political prisoner"
> and request for early release.

I'm all for the White House sponsored request.

I am beginning more and more, however, to come to the conclusion that Hovind and his supporters only want the issue for promotional purposes; not because they really want the President of the United States to tell them what he thinks about the Hovind case and claims.

Sincerely,
Maury Enthusiast!

[Quixote]

Its just a way to further mock Hovind - possibly for his tax nonsense, but I suspect more likely for his beliefs in creation science. Hopefully it is for the former though.

If it turns out the petition is just to mock Hovind over his religious beliefs then I will be removing this topic since it has nothing to do with tax scams and protesting. Much of the conversation here about Hovind lately has had little to do with his tax conviction and more about whether he is entitled to receive the exemptions for being a minister. But if the conversation starts turning into a religious one, then the topic will be deleted.

I appreciate the comment Observer. I have no issue with discussions of Hovinds idiotic tax machinations. But it seems to me lately that too many of the posts about him are started and continued to discuss (and clearly mock) his creation science beliefs and what the creation science hall of fame is doing. I just think that is innapropriate and unnecessary.

Hovind's supporters are tying his conviction to his promotion of "creation science". They allege that the government is attempting to silence Hovind. One answer to those contentions is to point out the obvious, that Hovind was convicted of the crimes for which he was charged and the government's motivation for charging him is irrelevant. Another answer to those contentions is to point out how pointless it would be to expend any effort to silence Hovind because no one is paying any attention to him. No one is paying any attention to him because "creation science" is a dead issue, having been supplanted by Intelligent Design.

In addition, one of the purposes of this forum is the discussion as to why people believe strange things. Hovind believes that he is not subject to income and employment taxes. He is incorrect. He also believes the earth was created 6,000 years ago. That is also incorrect. Is there any connection between those beliefs? There need not be. Everyone, notably the psychiatric professionals who examined him, consider Irwin Schiff to be rational with respect to everything except income taxes. And with regard to those, he is batshit crazy. So there is no certainty that Hovind's two delusions stem from the same source, but you have to admit, it's tempting to try to make a connection.

[The Observer]

Is there any connection between those beliefs? There need not be.

Which is why I think there is some question as to the underlying reason for the White House petition being created in the first place. Some people have a desire to link the issue of Hovind's beliefs about the origin of life on this planet to his tax beliefs. Why they wish to do so probably has more to do with them not willing to tolerate Hovind perpetuating his theory of creationism, especially if he is doing it under the aegis of earning income that is not taxable, i.e. as a minister. And lately, the discussion on this site regarding Hovind has revolved around that issue.

But that is really a tax policy/administration issue and not a whacky tax protestor theory. Hovind has been convicted, sentenced and incarcerated for his whacky tax beliefs so I am not sure what more there is to be gained by the anti/pro segments creating a petition. Hovind is not going to get his sentence overturned or released based on the petition.

In the context of the present discussion, I don't think it necessary to separate young-earth creation-science promoters generally from Kent Hovind and from the Creation Science Hall of Fame and its directors.

If supporters of Hovind are indeed embracing his tax beliefs by encouraging others to participate in the same scheme, then that should be discussed here and provide evidence that shows that they are explicitly doing that. But stating that any and all persons who believe in creationism should be generally considered supportive of Hovind's tax crimes is going to require hard and verifiable proof. If you cannot provide that, then you need to back off. Otherwise, we are going to have to conclude that you are just axe-grinding.

[Pottapaug1938]

If people want to believe in creationism/"scientific creationism"/"intelligent design", that's their problem. However, if Hovind's allies and/or opponents want his case fairly reviewed, as I said above, they need to work through the judicial system, and not go off on ineffective tangents by asking the White House to interfere in the process. Once his conviction is final, THEN perhaps a clemency petition might be in order ( which I feel would be undeserved, but that's only my opinion).

This petition serves no useful purpose, here or anywhere.

[Famspear]

We, the undersigned petitioners, request the complete pardon and release from prison of Kent E. Hovind. We believe Hovind to be completely innocent of the alleged crime of "tax evasion".....

Good.

Because he was neither charged with nor convicted of "tax evasion."

He was charged with and convicted of twelve counts of willful failure to collect, account for, and pay over federal income taxes and FICA taxes, forty-five counts of knowingly structuring transactions in federally insured financial institutions to evade reporting requirements, and one count of corruptly endeavoring to obstruct and impede the administration of the internal revenue laws.

Get your facts straight, people.

.....and furthermore believe Hovind's 10 year sentence to be patently unjust and based upon an effort to silence his ministry.....

Baloney.

Hovind was well aware that the law required the reporting of his transactions, and he willfully violated that law. Over and over and over again. He repeatedly made cash withdrawals just under the $10,000 reporting requirement -- in an attempt to avoid having those transactions be reported to the Department of the Treasury.

The government charged him with that, the evidence showed that he did it, the jury found him guilty, and the Court sentenced him.

The idea that all this happened because prosecutors, jury members or judges wanted to "silence his ministry" is silly.

[Famspear]

...Once his conviction is final, THEN perhaps a clemency petition might be in order....

The appeals process ended in December 2008, I think.