Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Famspear
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Famspear »

stija wrote:....However, i would suggest you talk with Famspear as he can explain the difference between regulation and taxation. The authority for legislation under one is not the same for the other. Right Famspear?? You thought me good, now's the time to chime in and explain, teach him too!
Oh, no. I can't actually explain the difference between regulation and taxation. I was asleep in class that day. I was awake in class on the day that we learned that the power to tax and the power to regulate are separate powers.

Sorry, you'll have to go to someone else if you want to know more about regulation and taxation. I'm just a poor simple country boy, chewin' on piece of hay..... Up to my knees in b*lls**t..... Just shovelin' my blues away.......

:violin:

You know I actually practice as a CPA right now. It's a very specialized accounting practice. We deal only with clients who have financial statements.....

.... and tax returns......

..........................that contain ONLY........

(wait for it! wait for it.....)

..............................................ODD NUMBERS!

:Axe:
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
stija

Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by stija »


Oh, no. I can't actually explain the difference between regulation and taxation. I was asleep in class that day. I was awake in class on the day that we learned that the power to tax and the power to regulate are separate powers.

Sorry, you'll have to go to someone else if you want to know more about regulation and taxation. I'm just a poor simple country boy, chewin' on piece of hay..... Up to my knees in b*lls**t..... Just shovelin' my blues away.......



You know I actually practice as a CPA right now. It's a very specialized accounting practice. We deal only with clients who have financial statements.....

.... and tax returns......

..........................that contain ONLY........

(wait for it! wait for it.....)

..............................................ODD NUMBERS!
Gibberish for "I have nothing to say." Does your wife not like talking to you? I ask because i could certainly see that.
Oh grasshopper, retreat thou not into vague incoherence. Rouse thyself, gird up thine loins, come forth, and shew thyself verily to be the Einsteinian intellect that we know thou must be.

Oh, boy this is rich. And I haven't even had a drink today ... yet.
More of the same. See definition of gibberish above.
Tell you what, stija -- when I was in law school, and one of my classes were about to discuss a certain point of law, it was customary to "brief" a case. In other (simplfied) words, we had to be prepared to tell the professor what the issue was, what the main points of the discussion (dicta) were; and what the holding was.

In other words: if you want to shut us all up for good (and what a wall trophy THAT would make among your TD pals!), how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the centtral issue was and what the court's holding was. To make it easy, you can skip the dicta.
When I was in elementary school long time ago we used to play marbles during breaks. More gibberish.

LPC, i am waiting on you to save the day. You can find the two prong test i allege SCOTUS uses when deciding whether intergovernental immunity doctrine applies. I am dying to hear what you come up with. :whistle:
Last edited by stija on Mon May 13, 2013 6:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Famspear
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Famspear »

Oh grasshopper, retreat thou not into vague incoherence. Rouse thyself, gird up thine loins, come forth, and shew thyself verily to be the Einsteinian intellect that we know thou must be.

Oh, boy this is rich. And I haven't even had a drink today ... yet.

:P
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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Tell you what, stija -- when I was in law school, and one of my classes were about to discuss a certain point of law, it was customary to "brief" a case. In other (simplfied) words, we had to be prepared to tell the professor what the issue was, what the main points of the discussion (dicta) were; and what the holding was.

In other words: if you want to shut us all up for good (and what a wall trophy THAT would make among your TD pals!), how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the centtral issue was and what the court's holding was. To make it easy, you can skip the dicta.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
Famspear
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Famspear »

stija wrote:

Oh, no. I can't actually explain the difference between regulation and taxation. I was asleep in class that day. I was awake in class on the day that we learned that the power to tax and the power to regulate are separate powers.

Sorry, you'll have to go to someone else if you want to know more about regulation and taxation. I'm just a poor simple country boy, chewin' on piece of hay..... Up to my knees in b*lls**t..... Just shovelin' my blues away.......



You know I actually practice as a CPA right now. It's a very specialized accounting practice. We deal only with clients who have financial statements.....

.... and tax returns......

..........................that contain ONLY........

(wait for it! wait for it.....)

..............................................ODD NUMBERS!
Gibberish for "I have nothing to say." Does your wife not like talking to you? I ask because i could certainly see that.
B-o-r-i-n-g..... B-o-r-i-n-g.....

Intergovernmental immunity doctrine..... B-o-r-i-n-g..... B-o-r-i-n-g..... It's not fair! Wahhhhhh! Let's play a game I WANT TO PLAY!

(CLICK!)

Sorry, kiddo. I thought it would be fun pretending, for just a while, that you're the adult in this thread.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
stija

Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by stija »

Famspear, seriously man, go clutter the forum somewhere else.

Alternatively pull on yourself instead of distracting the forum with gibberish. LPC and myself are trying to have a coherent argument.

So far we have agreed only that the intergovernmental immunity doctrine exists.
I alleged that it applies according to the rules exposed in one of my previous posts.
He disagreed with the rules, but agrees that it exists.
I am waiting to hear what grounds he alleges the doctrine applies then.
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

stija wrote:Famspear, seriously man, go clutter the forum somewhere else.

Alternatively pull on yourself instead of distracting the forum with gibberish. LPC and myself are trying to have a coherent argument.

So far we have agreed only that the intergovernmental immunity doctrine exists.
I alleged that it applies according to the rules exposed in one of my previous posts.
He disagreed with the rules, but agrees that it exists.
I am waiting to hear what grounds he alleges the doctrine applies then.
To support your premise, how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was? To make it easier, you can skip the dicta.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
Famspear
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Famspear »

stija wrote:Famspear, seriously man, go clutter the forum somewhere else.

Alternatively pull on yourself instead of distracting the forum with gibberish. LPC and myself are trying to have a coherent argument.
Oh, wait, you mean you DON'T LIKE TO READ GIBBERISH????

Who would-a guessed? I mean, all we have to go on here are your previous posts.
So far we have agreed only that the intergovernmental immunity doctrine exists.
I alleged that it applies according to the rules exposed in one of my previous posts.
He disagreed with the rules, but agrees that it exists.
I am waiting to hear what grounds he alleges the doctrine applies then.
Oh, and the rest of us are waiting, with bated breath, to read your next vague and incoherent pontification. I'm confident you won't let us down.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
stija

Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by stija »

To support your premise, how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was? To make it easier, you can skip the dicta.
My premise is that intergovernmental immunity doctrine exists. LPC agrees. I made allegations in my previous posts (go see them) in relation to the rules when the doctrine applies. LPC disagrees with my allegations but has not made any of his own.

I am waiting to see when, according to LPC, the intergovernamental immunity applies, according to him and any case law he comes up with. We will go from there. Maybe he comes back and says that the doctrine just exists, but it never applies. Stay tuned. I can't wait.

Me and you Pottapaug1938 can have our own separate discussion on another topic. Pick something you disagree with me other than the IID (intergov't imm doct) and let me know what you think i am wrong about.

Perhaps how Title 26 requirements that employers, which state agencies would be if subject to the code, match their employees contribution would not be a direct tax on the state agency itself? Perhaps something simpler, like what is the civil status of a Delaware corporation engaged in local business within Alabama under Title 26?
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

stija wrote:
To support your premise, how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was? To make it easier, you can skip the dicta.
My premise is that intergovernmental immunity doctrine exists. LPC agrees. I made allegations in my previous posts (go see them) in relation to the rules when the doctrine applies. LPC disagrees with my allegations but has not made any of his own.

I am waiting to see when, according to LPC, the intergovernamental immunity applies, according to him and any case law he comes up with. We will go from there. Maybe he comes back and says that the doctrine just exists, but it never applies. Stay tuned. I can't wait.

Me and you Pottapaug1938 can have our own separate discussion on another topic. Pick something you disagree with me other than the IID (intergov't imm doct) and let me know what you think i am wrong about.

Perhaps how Title 26 requirements that employers, which state agencies would be if subject to the code, match their employees contribution would not be a direct tax on the state agency itself? Perhaps something simpler, like what is the civil status of a Delaware corporation engaged in local business within Alabama under Title 26?

Okay, fine. To support your premise, how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was? To make it easier, you can skip the dicta.
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stija

Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by stija »

Okay, fine. To support your premise, how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was? To make it easier, you can skip the dicta.
I asked a question of law. Allow me to ask it again. What civil status under Title 26 is appropriate, as evidenced by the statutory language in that title, for a Delaware corporation involved in local business WITHIN Alabama?

It is a question, there is no premise. If you are referring to my IID premise, here:
5. A tax on income is not legally or economically a tax on its source, and there is no basis for the assumption that the economic burden of a nondiscriminatory state income tax on the salary of an employee of the National Government or of a governmental agency is passed on so as to impose a burden on the National Government tantamount to an unconstitutional interference by the one government with the other in the performance of its functions. P. 306 U. S. 480.
6. Assuming that the Home Owners' Loan Corporation is clothed with the same constitutional immunity from state taxation as the Government itself, it cannot be said that the present tax on the income of its employees lays any unconstitutional burden upon it. P. 306 U. S. 486.
from Graves v. New York ex rel. O'Keefe - 306 U.S. 466 (1939) which is what LPC used.

No burden, no immunity. Burden was SQUARELY on the employee, the attorney in question AND resident of the state. Federal entity did not have to report, withhold, administer, or pay ANYTHING. No burden WHATSOEVER on it. Things are much different under Title 26 which would require a state agency/employer to:
1) administer
2) withhold
3) contribute MONETARILY because of a direct tax requirement in relation to FICA FUCA etc.

If the New York tax, was imposed on federal employers, requiring them to withhold, report, and participate in the New York tax scheme, the immunity would have applied to both of them, but since it fell onto the employee SQUARELY, they held the immunity did not impose a burden on Home and Loan. How much longer are you going to refuse to accept these facts?

Now, answer my question in regards to civil status please.
Last edited by stija on Mon May 13, 2013 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

stija wrote:
Okay, fine. To support your premise, how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was? To make it easier, you can skip the dicta.
I asked a question of law. Allow me to ask it again. What civil status under Title 26 is appropriate, as evidenced by the statutory language in that title, for a Delaware corporation involved in local business WITHIN Alabama?

It is a question, there is no premise.
To support your question/premise/assertion/point of law/fantasy/whatever, how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was? To make it easier, you can skip the dicta.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to play law school professor with you, nor do I want to chase you endlessly around the mulberry bush. Your point has been addressed earlier in this thread; so if you want to contradict what has been said, then find an unreversed court case which holds accordingly. You might also let us know why the civil status to which you refere is important, again supplying legal precedent to buttress your assertion.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
stija

Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by stija »

To support your question/premise/assertion/point of law/fantasy/whatever, how about offering us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was? To make it easier, you can skip the dicta.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to play law school professor with you, nor do I want to chase you endlessly around the mulberry bush. Your point has been addressed earlier in this thread; so if you want to contradict what has been said, then find an unreversed court case which holds accordingly. You might also let us know why the civil status to which you refere is important, again supplying legal precedent to buttress your assertion.
Piss off then. You solicited me to provide a holding, not the other way around.

As i said, i am waiting on LPC to tell me when the IID actually applies. If you can't do that or answer my question then, you're absolutely right, i don't need you to play professor.
Your point has been addressed earlier in this thread;
When and who explained when the IID actually applies. Show me professor.
stija

Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by stija »

It must be a little scary right about now when you start figuring out that you don't really fully understand what is going on huh?

It is easy to:
1) participate in income tax games and spew nonsense
2) avoid/evade participation in income tax games and spew nonsense

But it is quite a different game not to participate and actually know what is going on.

Now, since IID (intergovernmental immunity doctrine) exists and has been recognized by both the SCOTUS and LPC, and since LPC disagrees with SCOTUS rules for applying the immunity clause, i will await his presentation of the principles based on which the IID applies before we move on on that issue alone.

In the meantime, pottapaug1938, do you not want to answer a simple question of what the civil status of the beforementioned corporation is in that particular scenario? Or are you afraid you may say the wrong thing now? Don't doubt yourself man, just let me have it. Who knows, you may be right this time. I've seen stranger things happen, trust me.
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

stija wrote:It must be a little scary right about now when you start figuring out that you don't really fully understand what is going on huh?

It is easy to:
1) participate in income tax games and spew nonsense
2) avoid/evade participation in income tax games and spew nonsense

But it is quite a different game not to participate and actually know what is going on.

Now, since IID (intergovernmental immunity doctrine) exists and has been recognized by both the SCOTUS and LPC, and since LPC disagrees with SCOTUS rules for applying the immunity clause, i will await his presentation of the principles based on which the IID applies before we move on on that issue alone.

In the meantime, pottapaug1938, do you not want to answer a simple question of what the civil status of the beforementioned corporation is in that particular scenario? Or are you afraid you may say the wrong thing now? Don't doubt yourself man, just let me have it. Who knows, you may be right this time.
Getting a little tetchy, are we?

As I said, I'm not going to bother playing law professor; and I have better things to do than research your topic for you. But then, I'm sure you know the answer to the question. Just offer us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was.

"Piss off then. You solicited me to provide a holding, not the other way around."

That's right. I asked you to provide a holding... and all I get is evasions and ad hominem attacks. You need not respond any further until you are willing to offer the former rather than the latter.
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stija

Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by stija »

You must have missed the holding Pottapaug1938.
Getting a little tetchy, are we?

As I said, I'm not going to bother playing law professor; and I have better things to do than research your topic for you. But then, I'm sure you know the answer to the question. Just offer us unreversed appellate court cases in which you identify the case, give the citation, tell us what the central issue was and what the court's holding was.

"Piss off then. You solicited me to provide a holding, not the other way around."

That's right. I asked you to provide a holding... and all I get is evasions and ad hominem attacks. You need not respond any further until you are willing to offer the former rather than the latter.
Gibberish for nothing.
5. A tax on income is not legally or economically a tax on its source, and there is no basis for the assumption that the economic burden of a nondiscriminatory state income tax on the salary of an employee of the National Government or of a governmental agency is passed on so as to impose a burden on the National Government tantamount to an unconstitutional interference by the one government with the other in the performance of its functions. P. 306 U. S. 480.
6. Assuming that the Home Owners' Loan Corporation is clothed with the same constitutional immunity from state taxation as the Government itself, it cannot be said that the present tax on the income of its employees lays any unconstitutional burden upon it. P. 306 U. S. 486.
Quoted from holding of that case. See my post, or disregard it because it does not match with your views of 'reality.' Now piss off pretty please.
stija

Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by stija »

This is sooooo ironic guys. This post is about LH people not being able to answer a simple question and supposedly made fun of them, yet when i ask you simple questions, all of you avoid answering it like you avoid the plague.

The question is simple. LPC and I agreed that IID (Intergovernmental immunity doctrine) exists. SCOTUS agrees. We disagree on the rules used to determine when it applies and when it does not apply. I alleged mine and supported with LPC's SCOTUS decision holdings and he disagreed, but has provided no legal evidence to prove otherwise.

We are waiting now for a simple answer to a simple question: When does IID actually apply?

Anyone??

For 3 points: What is the correct civil status under Title 26 for a Delaware corporation doing business locally within Alabama?

So funny and ironic :haha:

Truth needs no disguise - Justice Hugo Black.

PS: for all you guests who view this, these guys have no clue, just like Pete Hendrickson who they make fun of. Take what you hear from them with a grain of salt. They are VERY good at repeating case law WITHOUT understanding what it say - buyer beware if you are after the TRUTH, you won't find it here. These guys are afraid of the truth.
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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

stija wrote:This is sooooo ironic guys. This post is about LH people not being able to answer a simple question and supposedly made fun of them, yet when i ask you simple questions, all of you avoid answering it like you avoid the plague.

We "avoid" answering these questions because 1) we have better things to do; 2) because we feel that any answer has little if any bearing on the main question of this thread; 3) because we know that you will misrepresent our answer anyway; and 4) because you lie outright when you say that LPC has provided no legal evidence to prove his premise.

If you feel that this question is so important; then 1) tell us why and 2) provide those court holdings -- if any. We know you won't, though. Until then, see ya later, Pal.



The question is simple. LPC and I agreed that IID (Intergovernmental immunity doctrine) exists. SCOTUS agrees. We disagree on the rules used to determine when it applies and when it does not apply. I alleged mine and supported with LPC's SCOTUS decision holdings and he disagreed, but has provided no legal evidence to prove otherwise.

We are waiting now for a simple answer to a simple question: When does IID actually apply?

Anyone??

For 3 points: What is the correct civil status under Title 26 for a Delaware corporation doing business locally within Alabama?

So funny and ironic :haha:

Truth needs no disguise - Justice Hugo Black.

PS: for all you guests who view this, these guys have no clue, just like Pete Hendrickson who they make fun of. Take what you hear from them with a grain of salt. They are VERY good at repeating case law WITHOUT understanding what it say - buyer beware if you are after the TRUTH.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
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Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by wserra »

stija wrote:i ask you simple questions, all of you avoid answering it like you avoid the plague.
I take it that you don't work.
The question is simple. LPC and I agreed that IID (Intergovernmental immunity doctrine) exists. SCOTUS agrees. We disagree on the rules used to determine when it applies and when it does not apply. I alleged mine and supported with LPC's SCOTUS decision holdings and he disagreed, but has provided no legal evidence to prove otherwise.
I think you've confused Dan ("LPC") and me. That's OK. I'm glad to be confused with Dan, and you're apparently glad to be, well, confused.
We are waiting now for a simple answer to a simple question: When does IID actually apply?
Much less than it used to - generally when the taxation discriminates against one sovereign, as I wrote above. Among the instances:

(1) When a state taxes recipients of its own payments at a lesser rate than it taxes recipients of federal payments. Davis v. Michigan Dept. of Treasury, 489 U.S. 803 (1989).

(2) When a state taxes military retirement benefits, but exempts the retirement benefits of its own employees. Barker v. Kansas, 503 U.S. 594 (1992).

(3) And, of course, when a state attempts to tax the United States itself or "an agency or instrumentality so closely connected to the Government that the two cannot realistically be viewed as separate entities". United States v. New Mexico, 455 U.S. 720 (1982).

Now is there a point to this?
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stija

Re: Nobody at losthorizons can answer a simple question

Post by stija »

Much less than it used to - generally when the taxation discriminates against one sovereign, as I wrote above. Among the instances:

(1) When a state taxes recipients of its own payments at a lesser rate than it taxes recipients of federal payments. Davis v. Michigan Dept. of Treasury, 489 U.S. 803 (1989).

(2) When a state taxes military retirement benefits, but exempts the retirement benefits of its own employees. Barker v. Kansas, 503 U.S. 594 (1992).

(3) And, of course, when a state attempts to tax the United States itself or "an agency or instrumentality so closely connected to the Government that the two cannot realistically be viewed as separate entities". United States v. New Mexico, 455 U.S. 720 (1982).

Now is there a point to this?
Yes, there is a point.

(1) and (2) deal with discrimination, no one is claiming discrimination so lets take them out of view ok? (3) deals with taxation of state and federal agencies. We agreed, and LPC proved that federal corporations cannot be taxed by states, and viceversa.

But, and maybe i did not pose the question correctly, when does the IID extend to the office/officer of the states and not just the state agencies or instrumentalities thereof? The question is posed because I argued that when an essential governmental state function is performed, or when the burden of taxation falls directly on the agency as well as the officer, the IID applies and both are immune. And this is reciprocal.

LPC, which i did not confuse with you, (you agreed on something else) disagrees with my proposition in contrast to the clear language from Graves v. New York ex rel. O'Keefe, 306 US 466 but does not offer an explanation of when it ACTUALLY does extend. He agrees that the IID exists, but not when it applies to both the officer and the agency.

I do work, just not today. From case referenced in (3):
(a) Federal immunity from state taxation cannot be conferred simply because the tax has an effect on the United States, or because the Federal Government shoulders the entire economic burden of the levy, or because the tax falls on the earnings of a contractor providing services to the Government. And where a use tax is involved, immunity cannot be conferred simply because the State levies the tax on the use of federal property in private hands, or, indeed, simply because the tax is paid with
Page 455 U. S. 721
Government funds. Tax immunity is appropriate only when the state levy falls on the United States itself, or on an agency or instrumentality so closely connected to the Government that the two cannot realistically be viewed as separate entities, at least insofar as the activity being taxed is concerned. A finding of constitutional tax immunity therefore requires something more than the invocation of traditional agency notions. Pp. 455 U. S. 730-738.
Exactly what i argue. Title 26 would impose a levy directly on employers (state agencies) AND also pose an unconstitutional burden on the functions of the agency in complying with administering and reporting requirements as well.

So having said all of this, do you think that Title 26 taxation of lets say Alabama Atty Gen Officer is constitutional and would not impose a burden while also directly taxing the state, or do you think IID applies in this case?
Last edited by stija on Mon May 13, 2013 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.