stija on "activity" v. "income"

LPC
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stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by LPC »

In the thread now locked, stija branched out into some new areas of misinformation, one involving the nature of the income tax:
stija wrote:On top of that i never said that incorporating in Delaware makes the corp not liable. WHOEVER assumed this does not understand how the code works. The tax is levied on the activity and measured by the income.
The last statement is wrong.

From the Tax Protester FAQ:
To try to support their nonsense, tax protesters frequently try to rely on the following quotation:
“The income tax is, therefore, not a tax on income as such. It is an excise tax with respect to certain activities and privileges which is measured by reference to the income which they produce. The income is not the subject of the tax: it is the basis for determining the amount of the tax.”
Congressional Record of 3/27/1943, page 2580.

Although this language appears in the Congressional Record, it is not a quotation from any Senator or Representative, but from a paper written by a lawyer named F. Morse Hubbard, who was formerly an employee of the Treasury Department. It is not clear whether any Senator or Representative agreed with Hubbard, or relied on his opinion.

Hubbard’s opinion in 1943 (30 years after the ratification of the 16th Amendment and the enactment of the first income tax under that amendment) about the nature of the income tax is flatly contradicted by a statement in 1913 by one of original authors of the income tax:
“Under the proposed measure income is both the subject and the measure of the tax.”
Representative Cordell Hull, Cong. Rec. (8/5/1913) (reprinted in Foster’s Income Tax.)

Cordell Hull (1871-1955) was a recognized expert in tax, commercial, and fiscal policies, and would have known what he was talking about. He served in Congress from 1907 to 1931 and served on the House Ways and Means Committee for eighteen years, where he was one of the principal authors of the income tax provisions of the 1913 Tariff Act, along with the Revised Act of 1916, and the federal estate tax that was enacted in 1916. (He was also elected as a U.S. Senator in 1931, but resigned in 1933 when President Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed him to serve as Secretary of State, a position he held for 12 years, which is the longest term in U.S. History.)

That Hubbard was wrong in his 1943 opinion is clear from the following footnote to the paragraph quoted above:
“If the tax should be construed as a tax on income as a specific fund the disappearance of the fund before the date of assessment would prevent the collection of the tax. (See Foster and Abbott, op. cit., p. 85.)”
Memorandum, note 4.

Hubbard seems to have been laboring under the misconception that, if Congress imposed a tax “on” income, and if the taxpayer spent the income before Congress could collect the tax, then Congress would be unable to collect the tax at all. But that is nonsense. As noted elsewhere, it is perfectly clear that the taxpayer who earns the income is personally liable for the tax, and I.R.C. section 6321 even imposes a lien for the amount of any tax that is assessed and unpaid on all of the property of the taxpayer, not just the income itself. So Hubbard’s semantic hair-splitting was completely unnecessary.

Hubbard also clearly believed that a tax measured by income would be an “income tax,” stating (for example) that the Corporate Tax Act of 1909 “was really an income tax.” But the Supreme Court flatly disagreed:
“As repeatedly pointed out by this court, the corporation tax law of 1909 ... imposed an excise or privilege tax, and not in any sense a tax upon property or upon income merely as income.”
U.S. v. Whitridge, 231 U.S. 144, 147 (1913).
“As has been repeatedly remarked, the corporation tax act of 1909 was not intended to be and is not, in any proper sense, an income tax law.”
Stratton’s Independence Ltd. v. Howbert, 231 U.S. 399, 414 (1913).
“As has been repeatedly pointed out by this court in previous cases [citations omitted] the act of 1909 was not in any proper sense an income tax law, nor intended as such, but was an excise upon the conduct of business in a corporate capacity, the tax being measured by reference to the income in a manner prescribed by the act itself.”
Anderson v. Forty-Two Broadway Co., 239 U.S. 69, (1915).

So Hubbard was wrong about the Corporate Tax Act of 1909 being an “income tax.” What about the idea that the income taxes enacted following the ratification of the 16th Amendment are not taxes “on” income but taxes on “certain activities and privileges”? The Internal Revenue Code does not identify any “activity or privilege” being taxed other than the receipt of the income itself. And the Supreme Court has confirmed that it is the realization (or receipt) of income that creates a tax liability:
“From the beginning the revenue laws have been interpreted as defining ‘realization’ of income as the taxable event rather than the acquisition of the right to receive it.”
Helvering v. Horst, 311 U.S. 112, 115 (1940).

To summarize, Hubbard’s characterization of the income tax is based on a faulty premise, is contradicted by one of the authors of the first income tax, and is inconsistent with the opinions of the Supreme Court. There is no getting around the fact that Hubbard was simply wrong.
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
stija

Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by stija »

On top of that i never said that incorporating in Delaware makes the corp not liable. WHOEVER assumed this does not understand how the code works. The tax is levied on the activity and measured by the income.
1. Stija never said that income is not subject to the tax.
2. Stija believes you made it a mission to discredit Stija.
3. Stija alleges you jump to conclusions that were never alleged by Stija.
4. Stija challenges you to post his words saying "income is not subject to the tax."
5. Stija alleges you became blinded by your drive to discredit Stija.
6. Stija alleges you mad because you won't answer a simple question that you know will destroy the foundation of some of your allegations.
7. Stija tells LPC that realization of income, or receipt of income is THE activity.
8. LPC should read his posts more carefully.
9. LPC should DEFINITELY read Stija's posts more carefully.
10. Common law dictates that slanderer has to show proof of the truth of his statements. See Dombey v. Phoenix Newspapers Inc. in re: rules of decision for slander. (state of Stija's domicile)
11. If this topic is an example of your reading comprehension skils, no wonder you 'understand' income taxation.
12. Stija is out now.
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by obadiah »

13. stija lives in a really strange world.
1. There is a kind of law that I like, which are my own rules, which I call common law. It applies to me.
2. There are many other kinds of law but they don’t apply to me, because I say so."
LLAP
stija

Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by stija »

obadiah wrote:13. stija lives in a really strange world.
1. 100% correct.
2. Strange is a matter of perspective, friend.
3. Do you think it's easy being this different?
AndyK
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by AndyK »

There appears to be an unnecessary concentration on the term 'activity' -- which has very little to do with the taxation of income.

A more appropriate, and less misleading, term would be 'event'

Thus, the tax is measured by the income which was received, accrued, or imputed as the result of some event. (Event could be something as simple as receipt of a paychecheck or as complex as recognition of in-progress income based on a major construction project)

The specific income-producing activity is irrelevant except as specificlly addressed within the income tax laws such as income derived from mining operations whis is subject to a depletion allowance..
Taxes are the price we pay for a free society and to cover the responsibilities of the evaders
stija

Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by stija »

@AndyK

1. Ok boss, income generating event.
2. Sounds very different from income generating activity, i agree.
LPC
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by LPC »

stija wrote:4. Stija challenges you to post his words saying "income is not subject to the tax."
I never said you that said (or wrote) that "income is not subject to the tax."

I quoted what you did write ("The income is not the subject of the tax: it is the basis for determining the amount of the tax.") and explained why what you wrote is wrong.

Deal with it.
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by Arthur Rubin »

stija wrote:@AndyK

1. Ok boss, income generating event.
2. Sounds very different from income generating activity, i agree.
Just income, not an "activity" or "event".
Arthur Rubin, unemployed tax preparer and aerospace engineer
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LPC
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by LPC »

Arthur Rubin wrote:
stija wrote:@AndyK

1. Ok boss, income generating event.
2. Sounds very different from income generating activity, i agree.
Just income, not an "activity" or "event".
I think that you (and AndyK) and stija are talking about different things.

AndyK was talking about the need for "realization" of income. Mere appreciation is usually not enough; there must be a transaction or event in which the income is "realized" before it is taxed. The Supreme Court has stated that:

“From the beginning the revenue laws have been interpreted as defining ‘realization’ of income as the taxable event rather than the acquisition of the right to receive it.” Helvering v. Horst, 311 U.S. 112, 115 (1940).

stija believes that activities, events, or privileges are being taxed, and that the income is just the way in which the tax is computed (which, as I've explained, is wrong). He probably misunderstood (or misconstrued) what AndyK was saying. So while your statement is correct, it is not going to clear up the confusion.

(And what I have written might clarify things for you and AndyK, it will probably not clarify anything for stija.)
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
stija

Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by stija »

(And what I have written might clarify things for you and AndyK, it will probably not clarify anything for stija.)
1. Absolutely right.
2. I love agreeing with you LPC; wish it were reciprocal.
3. Important thing: IRS understands what Stija says.
4. Irrelevant thing: LPC does not care nor understand what Stija says.
5. Tell me what else I'm thinking LPC.
6. Stija did not misconstrue anything.
7. Stija means what he says and understands what others say when they speak.
8. If not, Stija has no problem asking questions.
9. When does IID apply again LPC?
10 See 9. for an example of Stija asking a question when something not clear.
"Trade or Business" Defined
The term trade or business generally includes any activity carried on for the production of income from selling goods or performing services. It is not limited to integrated aggregates of assets, activities, and goodwill that comprise businesses for purposes of certain other provisions of the Internal Revenue Code. Activities of producing or distributing goods or performing services from which gross income is derived do not lose their identity as trades or businesses merely because they are carried on within a larger framework of other activities that may, or may not, be related to the organization's exempt purposes.

Page Last Reviewed or Updated: 28-Apr-2013
Source: IRS.GOV

1. IRS understands Stija, loud and clear.
2. IRS stays away from Stija.
3. Stija like that very much.
4. Stija never said activity taxable; activity produces income; income derived from activity; activity employment; activity trade or business; etc.
5. Next time Stija has to correspond with IRS, he will let them know that the proper term is 'realization of income' and no activity necessary; stija will do this under his 1st amendment protections as political speech because he don't like getting in trouble with the American Terrorist agency.
6. 5. may never happen as Stija does not play income tax games or correspond with terrorists.
7. Stija does not split hairs like LPC because Stija has real arguments that stand on their own.
8. Truth needs no disguise - Justice Hugo Black.
9. Stija agrees with 8.
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by Arthur Rubin »

Not that stija will care, but that quote from an (unspecified) IRS document has nothing to do with the definition of "income", only of "Trade or Business". Income need not come from a "Trade or Business".
Arthur Rubin, unemployed tax preparer and aerospace engineer
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by AndyK »

To throw a little more fuel on the fire, there can be income without ANY activity.

Passive income (e.g. real estate rental, interest received, imputed income, debt forgiveness) requires no activity. However, it is always associated with an income realization event.
Taxes are the price we pay for a free society and to cover the responsibilities of the evaders
stija

Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by stija »

AndyK wrote:To throw a little more fuel on the fire, there can be income without ANY activity.

Passive income (e.g. real estate rental, interest received, imputed income, debt forgiveness) requires no activity. However, it is always associated with an income realization event.
1. Not from Stija's property. See 7701(a)(31).
2. Maybe from United States property.
3. Reporting requirement in 6041 is how most inhabitants get into the IRS matrix.
4. One of reporting requirements is connection with a trade or business.
5. No connection, no reporting into the IRS matrix.
6. Trade or business very important to most people.
7. Most people don't know because most people lazy and just read instructions.
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by wserra »

stija - this board has a rule which, unlike the ban on political comment, has been in effect for a while: no one gets to claim personal success in violating the law without providing verifiable proof. You have now said/implied a couple of times that you are exempt from paying income tax. Assuming that you are either in the United States (you do, after all, post from the US) or a United States citizen, and that you earn more than the threshold, you are no more exempt than the rest of us so situated. Any further such claims will result in you being placed on moderated status, meaning that your posts will not appear on the board unless and until approved by a moderator. If your posts contain unverifiable claims of successful law-violating behavior, they simply will not be approved.

Verification cannot consist of redacted or photoshopped images; it must be something that I or someone else on the board can obtain independently of you. It would seem that any such proof would perforce reveal your identity, but perhaps you're more creative than I am.

I have no intention of discussing this with you, and will likely not respond to any attempts to do so. Discussions with you turn into exercises in tolerating sophistry in any event. I suggest you not push the limits.
"A wise man proportions belief to the evidence."
- David Hume
stija

Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by stija »

this board has a rule which, unlike the ban on political comment, has been in effect for a while: no one gets to claim personal success in violating the law without providing verifiable proof. You have now said/implied a couple of times that you are exempt from paying income tax
1. Dude, where did i say either:
a) i violated law
b) i am exempt
2. If you can't read simple English, how can you read IRC.
3. I am trying to show you guys, but you are trying to discredit me instead of listening.
4. I did not violate any rules.
5. Post where i say either 1(a) or 1(b).
6. Exempt is an IRS status that i am not.
7. Your warning is Frivolous because i never did any of the things you alleged.
8. Prove me wrong and post where i said any of the things in your warning.
9. Alternatively, just ban the dissenter anyway.
Assuming that you are either in the United States (you do, after all, post from the US) or a United States citizen,
1. I am neither.
2. I am in Arizona.
3. I am a citizen of Arizona.
4. Just like Mrs. Macomber was a citizen of New York and not a United States citizen.
5. Just like Standard Oil was a citizen of California and not a United STates citizen.
Verification cannot consist of redacted or photoshopped images; it must be something that I or someone else on the board can obtain independently of you. It would seem that any such proof would perforce reveal your identity, but perhaps you're more creative than I am.
1. Are you trying to do something illegal?
2. Are you suggesting that you want to do something you do not understand to get out of paying your share?
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

wserra said: "Assuming that you are either in the United States (you do, after all, post from the US) or a United States citizen,..."

stija said:
"1. I am neither.
2. I am in Arizona.
3. I am a citizen of Arizona.
4. Just like Mrs. Macomber was a citizen of New York and not a United States citizen.
5. Just like Standard Oil was a citizen of California and not a United STates citizen."

Sooooooo... stija is a sovrun. Sorry, my friend; but if you were born in the United States and are not the child of foreign diplomats, you are a United States citizen, a citizen of the United States, a US citizen (or however you choose to render it). Mrs. Macomber was the same.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by wserra »

Here:
stija wrote:I have no tax liability. Never have, never will.
And other places, less explicitly.

I'm not commenting on this issue again.
"A wise man proportions belief to the evidence."
- David Hume
stija

Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by stija »

Pottapaug1938 wrote:wserra said: "Assuming that you are either in the United States (you do, after all, post from the US) or a United States citizen,..."

stija said:
"1. I am neither.
2. I am in Arizona.
3. I am a citizen of Arizona.
4. Just like Mrs. Macomber was a citizen of New York and not a United States citizen.
5. Just like Standard Oil was a citizen of California and not a United STates citizen."

Sooooooo... stija is a sovrun. Sorry, my friend; but if you were born in the United States and are not the child of foreign diplomats, you are a United States citizen, a citizen of the United States, a US citizen (or however you choose to render it). Mrs. Macomber was the same.
1. You're really thick are you.
2. Stija said what he is.
3. Stija does not know what a 'sovrun' is?
4. Show me where Mrs. Macomber was a United States citizen from the case please.
5. Go ahead make my day and i will never come back.
Mrs. Macomber, a citizen and resident of New York, was, in the year 1916, a stockholder in the Standard Oil Company (of California), a corporation organized under the laws of California and having its principal place of business in that State.
On January 1, 1916, the Standard Oil Company of California, a corporation of that State,
1. Why is she a citizen and resident of New York in federal court under income tax laws? Shouldn't she be a United States citizen and resident under federal income tax laws?
2. Why is Standard Oil Company (of California) a California corporation in federal court under income tax laws?
3. What the hell is going on prof?
4. Asked the pupil.
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Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

stija said "4. Show me where Mrs. Macomber was a United States citizen from the case please."

I'll do even better, and invite you to take a look at the first section of the 14th Amendment. Since she was born within the United States, and is not the child of foreign diplomats (which is what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means, she was a United States citizen from the moment of her birth.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
stija

Re: stija on "activity" v. "income"

Post by stija »

Pottapaug1938 wrote:stija said "4. Show me where Mrs. Macomber was a United States citizen from the case please."

I'll do even better, and invite you to take a look at the first section of the 14th Amendment. Since she was born within the United States, and is not the child of foreign diplomats (which is what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means, she was a United States citizen from the moment of her birth.
1. Stija is a 14th Amendment citizen, or constitutional citizen.
2. Stija thought we were discussing federal revenue laws and civil citizenship under those laws.
3. U.S. Constitution context - people giving rights to governments.
4. Title 26 context - gov't legislating on its constitutional grants from the people, to protect the people.
5. Two very different contexts.
6. Stija has no civil rights. Civil rights for people where Constitution does not apply.
7. Stija has natural rights some of which are protected by the U.S. Constitution Bill of Rights.
8. You confused.