tm169 - Up the Congo and into the Heart of Dumbness

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

I've been watching some discussions going on over the last couple months in the Get Out Of Debt Free (http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/) forums. This is a leading UK Freeman-on-the-Land website operated by a guru who goes by the name Ceylon.

Something most unusual has occurred. A self-identified mortgage litigation lawyer using the alias "tm169" is pulling a Jane Goodall and mingling with the locals. The juxtaposition of perspectives and tm169's amazing patience is makes what is to me, at least, quite the drama! Here are some of the message threads:

• AMA: Mortgage litigation lawyer: ask me anything: http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... 09&t=47167
  
  My opinions on whether the letters work.: http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... 10&t=50085
  
  Important 2012 court case - any thoughts: http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... 87&t=49607
  
  Possession Hearing in early July . . .: http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... 5&p=162110
  
  please don't flame me!: http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... 09&t=51741
  
  A4V & Prom Note REFUSED & NOT returned. Legal Position?: http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... 35&t=51752

I am in awe of tm169's patience and the clear way he/she expresses concepts and principles during interactions with the locals. Intriguingly, tm169 has managed to establish a rapport with other forum members, particularly those who appear to be genuinely stressed via financial or other difficulty.

SMS Möwe

[tm169]

Hi Hilfskreuzer Möwe

I was directed to this post via JREF. Thank you for your kind words. It is such an encouragement to know people are reading and appreciating my "work".

You probably know everything you need to from my posts on Goodf but if you have any questions let me know!

tm

[obadiah]

tm169,
I've read your work on GOODF and you have the patience of a saint. I'm not sure I could keep a straight face anywhere near that long...

[rogfulton]

I add my sense of awe as well. Having read most of the material at the links above, it amazes me that they haven't turned on you, tm169.

In so many places, the points you raise would have been met with derision and banishment. Kudos for not getting banned!!

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

tm169 - welcome!

I can only restate my prior comments, but with one observation. What you are doing is an activity where your successes will necessarily be invisible - people who wake up and recognize they've been had are not likely to remain on GOODF. That said, I hope a few would at least send you a nudge and thanks.

I believe my opinion is probably shared by many - I would very much appreciate your perspective on how the Freeman-on-the-Land phenomenon is operating in the U.K. I have on a number of occasions looked for reported case law on the subject, with the only success being a couple cases from Jersey. Any data you could share would be of very great interest to me.

SMS Möwe

[tm169]

I add my sense of awe as well. Having read most of the material at the links above, it amazes me that they haven't turned on you, tm169.

In so many places, the points you raise would have been met with derision and banishment. Kudos for not getting banned!!

Thanks

Yeah I'm surprised (and maybe a little disappointed) I haven't been banned yet.

I think there are various reasons why I haven't been banned

1. Ceylon has taken something of back seat in the general forum and seems to be more concerned with making /reposting bizarre videos here https://www.youtube.com/user/SriLankerC?feature=watch

2. I have succeeded in disarming them by predicting I might be banned.

3. Some of the less "eccentric" members think they can use me for unlocking the 'secrets' of the legal system and / or that i might accidentally let slip the true reptilian / masonic nature of the English legal system

4. A spate of recent, if fairly well concealed, failures of the their process has led some, even senior members, to doubt the "system" or at least some elements of it. Some of what I'm saying is ringing alarm bells among the more sensible members.

Anyway I'm enjoying myself while it lasts!

[tm169]

What you are doing is an activity where your successes will necessarily be invisible - people who wake up and recognize they've been had are not likely to remain on GOODF. That said, I hope a few would at least send you a nudge and thanks.

Indeed I'm hoping the high view counts on my posts indicate I have made some people think twice and do some of their own reading from an unbiased source. I have received Pms from 10 or so members thanking me which is great to hear.

I believe my opinion is probably shared by many - I would very much appreciate your perspective on how the Freeman-on-the-Land phenomenon is operating in the U.K. I have on a number of occasions looked for reported case law on the subject, with the only success being a couple cases from Jersey. Any data you could share would be of very great interest to me.

I myself am interested in gathering some data. I considered making FoI requests to HMCTS but I doubt they record the data in a meaningful way.

As for cases it is rare for County Court cases to be reported and naturally an appeal based on freemen arguments would never get permission to appeal. Likewise criminal cases are more likely to be reported and in the UK at least there are few examples of people relying on the sovereign citizen stuff in criminal matters. We could really do with an English judge to give a Meads v Meads style judgement to nip the freemen stuff in the bud.

I have had a good search on Westlaw for cases but haven't been able to find anything. It is possible that some Goodf cases are difficult to find because the judge won't specifically identify the main points in the judgement and would probably describe it as "the defendant's ludicrous argument" rather than actually identifying what the defence is.

I think there are a couple of cases that touch on freeman stuff. I will look them up and post links.

[notorial dissent]

tm169, welcome, and let me add my commendations to those already proffered.

What you are doing is highly commendable, and well done. I think part of the difference is that your presentation does not come off as preachy or sanctimonious, and it is in plain and understandable language. As someone pointed out, I think your real successes will be invisible as they will happen and not be reported back when one of the lurkers buys a clue and gets their head out of the guillotine.

I would have said you audience/players were all on your side of the pond with one exception who seemed to think he was operating under American law for some reason. The same reason some of them seem to think our UCC means anything to an English court or judge. It's universal and all encompassing you know.

Again, good going, and good luck with your conversion. If nothing else, I learned something new, as I didn't think that was done, I always thought you were only one or the other.

Best, Notorial Dissent

[tm169]

Here a couple of UK cases I have found via JREF some reported some just newspaper articles.

Elizabeth Watson family case: http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean

Council tax http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/nor ... n_1_745681

Writ of habeas corpus:
Massey v Governor of HM Prison Liverpool [2011] EWHC 2270 (Admin)
Bailii link doesn't seem to work so I've put it here: http://pastebin.com/FjBtjs78

Watson v Lord Advocate Sheriff Court [2013] G.W.D. 19-378 is a good Scottish case, dealing with "foisted unilateral agreements". It is not available online but I have placed the full judgement on pastebin (will expire in 30 days for © reasons) http://pastebin.com/jsWuLC0d

This is the case from Jersey which I think was mentioned, obviously not English law but worth a look. http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean

[ArthurWankspittle]

Ouch!

Ms. Watson describes herself in the documentation as the chief executive officer of an organisation called "Discoveries International Limited" and as "a private case investigator since 2010". She is plainly not a lawyer. As I will shortly make clear, she was told that it would be sensible for her to get legal advice. She was also warned that she was at risk of being sent to prison. She was ordered to attend the hearing before me on 15 August and did not do so. Despite what she said to me this morning, and no doubt she will repeat it in mitigation, I can see no good reason why she did not do so. There was an order of a High Court Judge that she should attend and she did not do so. As a result, the case proceeded in her absence.

That is one pissed-off judge. In some respects I'm not surprised she got 9 months.

And welcome to Quatloos tm169, we need all the Queen's subjects we can get on here to keep the ex-colonials in check.

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

Here a couple of UK cases I have found via JREF some reported some just newspaper articles.

Thank you for this, tm169 - very much appreciated. I particularly enjoyed the Scottish decision, nice to see a full analysis of that kind.

I have an unrelated question - I noted you mentioned copyright issues. In the UK are reported court decisions considered to be intellectual property owned by the Law Reporter in which they are published? If that is the case, I find that a interesting difference with Canada. Our Supreme Court a few years ago explicitly concluded in CCH Canadian Ltd. v. Law Society of Upper Canada, 2004 SCC 13, [2004] 1 SCR 339 at para. 35 that regardless of the editorial steps involved, the text of a judgment itself is cannot be the subject of copyright.

SMS Möwe

[fortinbras]

In the US, court decisions are not copyrighted. However, the blandishments added by the law publisher - such as the key numbers and the headnotes - are copyrighted.

The result has been, in some specialty law publishers over the years, that (for example) the edition produced by West Publishing has been photographically reprinted - West did the proofreading (which included corresponding with the judge if West thought there was a typo of some sort), the typesetting, and so forth - but West's headnotes, key number references, and short summary are deleted, leaving a white gap on the first page of the decision.

Some publishers pony on West shamelessly this way, some other publishers get the decision directly from the courts' typescripts and do their own proofreading and typesetting. I have found some instances where the West edition used a casename different from another edition, had slightly different paragraph breaks, etc. West also converted the citations of other cases from the form used in the court's own typescript to its own style (e.g., the court may have cited only to the state's official edition and West will add the parallel cite to the West edition, and/or the court probably used the Harvard Blue Book style sheet for its citations and West will recast the citations into its own - sometimes clearer - style).

[Burnaby49]

I sometimes have difficulty getting US decisions because of the copyright issue but, as Mowe says, all decisions are publicly available in Canada. We even have free one-stop shopping with the CanLii website. If anyone ever wants Canadian decisions at any level of court this is the place to go:

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/search.do? ... =tribunals

[tm169]

I assume anything on www.bailii.org is fair game but they don't seem to have all reported cases unlike the Canadian ones. Not sure about the status of those Scottish reports so played it safe with the expiry dates!

[tm169]

Thank you for this, tm169 - very much appreciated. I particularly enjoyed the Scottish decision, nice to see a full analysis of that kind.

No problem! I am constantly on the lookout for more reported English cases so if anyone has any leads let me know.

That Scottish case is a great read and would no doubt be good "persuasive precedent" if such a case arose in England

[AndyK]

For what it's worth: West, like most of the map / atlas publishers, includes small (albeit highly identifiable) changes in their published works.

As soon as they see the same detail in another publisher's work, UNLEASH THE LAWYERS.

West has yet to lose a copyright infringement suit which they initiated.

[Arthur Rubin]

For what it's worth: West, like most of the map / atlas publishers, includes small (albeit highly identifiable) changes in their published works.

If it's not just in pagination, it's likely to make a significant difference in some cases referring to the published case. [Political comment relating to the meaning of is redacted; the identity of the parties is not relevant.] I don't think West or Lexis/Nexis can be sued (except where they are the official reporter) for that, but it would certainly damage their reputation.

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

... all decisions are publicly available in Canada. We even have free one-stop shopping with the CanLii website. If anyone ever wants Canadian decisions at any level of court this is the place to go ...

I'd go further than that - CanLII represents what legal case law databases in the future should look like. If any forum member has a reason to refer to or investigate Canadian case law or jurisprudence, CanLII is the best source, commercial or otherwise, for these materials. CanLII is my primary research tool, simply because its search engine is more powerful and efficient than any commercial equivalent.

To illustrate, CanLII has the ability to display historic versions of legislation and then do side-by-side alignments of the different versions, with changes colour-coded for ease of reference. It is a perfect implementation. When the tool was released I could not imagine how it could be improved in any way.

All free.

Every so often I respond to a 'how are we doing?' survey from LexusNexis or Westlaw/Carswell on their services and my comments have not necessarily been all that polite: if you people can't catch up to what I have available, for free, your services will become obsolete - off to the ashheap of history for you.

Really admire the people at CanLII. Some of the best and functional web design I have ever encountered. The service is a model of how law should be made available to the public.

SMS Möwe

[tm169]

This might not count as a definitive fmotl case but is certainly pertinent to the arguments on goodf and elsewhere.

I was drawn towards the words "technical and unmeritorious" which I think apply aptly. It goes into some detail about what securitisations is and why it doesn't mean that you no longer have to pay your mortgage.

Paragon Finance plc v Pender
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2003/2834.html

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

I'd just like to point out to our fellow Quatloosians that Tm169 has begun dissection of the Get Out Of Debt Free (http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/) pseudolegal concepts, materials, and in-court failures at a public blog:

• Tm169's OPCA Blog: Unravelling the world of OPCA legal theories. (http://opcablog.wordpress.com/author/tm169/)

I have read the entries to date and am damned impressed. I look forward to making reference to this excellent resource.

SMS Möwe