ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[worried]

This thread has been alive for 1571 days and I don't think it went anywhere.

It's gone plenty of places. It's not our fault if you don't catch on to anything.

He's simply resorting to discrediting the forum after being reduced to responding with gibberish just a few posts ago...

[Tednewsom]

This thread has been alive for 1571 days and I don't think it went anywhere.

I don't think getting mad at each other accomplishes anything rational or productive. But as for "going anywhere" in 1571 days, I disagree.

Several people have weighed in on the set-up, either suspicious, dubious or puzzled at the seemingly flimsy mathematics and sales procedures. They're objective, with no dog in the race.

Two financial advisors who both dealt directly with Joel Gillis reported dissatisfaction with the lack of transparency and the absence of any specifics whatsoever. They declined to advise any of their investors to subscribe to the pitch, and clearly were concerned with the investors who had already invested. Both were drawn into the situation by their own clients, who had invested without doing due diligence.

Two other advisors weighed in because of their concern for clients and/or relatives who had invested without doing due diligence.

One or two people offered one-note rah-rah posts, to the effect of "I knows these nice mans for long time and he send me moneys eva-wee mumff so you's all a big poo-oo heads." Which are not particularly helpful.

And "beverlyhillsguy" and yourself offer more intricate defenses, although other people here seem to have counterpoints to each one of the "positive" arguments you make. And even in your own writings, you appear to harbor suspicions that it's not on the up-and-up.

Oh, no, I think it is in fact "going anywhere."

[JamesVincent]

Here is the main problem, in the form of a couple of statements and questions:

1. When Ted first started this thread, quite awhile ago, I looked up NAS and tried to see what I found online. I found several things, for want of a better word, that were essentially either paid or editorial pump-ups for the company, very, very little true third party or objective articles on the company. Web stated at one point that, with the amount of ATMs they claim to control, they would be in the top 5 of ATM owners in the country. Why, then, does it not make sense that they have no true publicity?

2. Almost every single person that has asked questions has asked for either a copy of the lease/ sales agreement or a copy of other documentation showing what the actual deal or offer is. I looked for any relevant postings online and came up with zip. Why will/ has no one responded to this question?

3. The numbers don't make sense to me. As noted before, I did have some experience in the business and it doesn't add up to me. That is enough reason for me to advise against getting into it. Nothing I have seen in this thread or online has made anymore sense. Why should I NOT follow my informed instincts and not want to touch this with a 10 meter cattle prod?

4. As Ted stated even your own posts show hesitation and some reluctance in the company. If you are truly involved in and have doubts.....?

5. I have asked several different posters, yourself included, for maker and model info on the machines to be able to do a true cost comparison. Not a single response. Why?

6. As a financial adviser, would YOU recommend this to a client after seeing all the unanswered, very legitimate questions posters have asked?

7. If this "deal" is truly on the up and up why is there no mention of it anywhere, period? I mean, nothing.... anywhere. Every article I have read, their own website, newspapers, journals.... nothing. Again, why is that?

[SomeYuppie]

I was waiting for you to show up. At least you stay focused.

Here is the main problem, in the form of a couple of statements and questions:

1. When Ted first started this thread, quite awhile ago, I looked up NAS and tried to see what I found online. I found several things, for want of a better word, that were essentially either paid or editorial pump-ups for the company, very, very little true third party or objective articles on the company. Web stated at one point that, with the amount of ATMs they claim to control, they would be in the top 5 of ATM owners in the country. Why, then, does it not make sense that they have no true publicity?

2. Almost every single person that has asked questions has asked for either a copy of the lease/ sales agreement or a copy of other documentation showing what the actual deal or offer is. I looked for any relevant postings online and came up with zip. Why will/ has no one responded to this question?

3. The numbers don't make sense to me. As noted before, I did have some experience in the business and it doesn't add up to me. That is enough reason for me to advise against getting into it. Nothing I have seen in this thread or online has made anymore sense. Why should I NOT follow my informed instincts and not want to touch this with a 10 meter cattle prod?

4. As Ted stated even your own posts show hesitation and some reluctance in the company. If you are truly involved in and have doubts.....?

5. I have asked several different posters, yourself included, for maker and model info on the machines to be able to do a true cost comparison. Not a single response. Why?

6. As a financial adviser, would YOU recommend this to a client after seeing all the unanswered, very legitimate questions posters have asked?

7. If this "deal" is truly on the up and up why is there no mention of it anywhere, period? I mean, nothing.... anywhere. Every article I have read, their own website, newspapers, journals.... nothing. Again, why is that?

1. I've looked up almost all affiliated companies and none of them have much web presence. This includes the one RBS spun off. All the press I've seen from NAS is advertising to business owners trying to secure locations. I haven't seen anything regarding them advertising a business opportunity for investors.

2.lol there is no way I'm going to sit down, go through a 30 page document, blot out all identifying info, scan it in, upload it on some public hosting site, and then link to it here. I'm here to see if anyone can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the company is a fraud. I don't feel like I need to prove innocence so if you want to see one, ask for one and simply don't return it. I still don't know why not a single concerned soul won't call directly and ask for a rundown of the business model. I did promise you that I'd tell you the name of the processor sending me the monthly statements and I should get my next one either Saturday or Monday.

3. The numbers don't make sense how? Do you find them impossible or a rip off to the investor?Assuming my numbers, is a 12.5% rev share impossible to pull off?

4. As I stated before, I have lots of money in the stock market and have doubts. Even with third party audits they only provide REASONABLE ASSURANCE, and that's with publically traded companies. The point is all investments have inherent risks, and NAS has inherent risks too.

5. There are several models to choose from and I think the make was Triton or something. I know he mentioned something with a T that's manufactured in Ohio. I think I mentioned this along with the several different models he uses in a prior post.

6. In my experience with private companies, I have not seen a single thing with NAS that I haven't seen happen elsewhere in businesses that I know to be legitimate.

7. Well if they aren't actively promoting it.... hmm another difference between what was established as facts in those cases posted and NAS.

[Tednewsom]

1. I've looked up almost all affiliated companies and none of them have much web presence. This includes the one RBS spun off. All the press I've seen from NAS is advertising to business owners trying to secure locations. I haven't seen anything regarding them advertising a business opportunity for investors.

You are an intelligent man, clearly. I mean that sincerely. Ask. Yourself. "Why?"

2.I still don't know why not a single concerned soul won't call directly and ask for a rundown of the business model.

Without getting into the two financial advisors I talked to (that's hearsay; besides, I could be making it all up), in this thread there are lengthy statements from two other separate concerned financial advisors and their direct dealings with the gentleman and his company. The best they got was double-talk, cheerful equivocations and an odd reticence about specifics; at worst, mysterious non-responses to major purchases in exchange for some due diligence. Where is the need for a repeat engagement?

3. The numbers don't make sense how? Do you find them impossible or a rip off to the investor? Assuming my numbers, is a 12.5% rev share impossible to pull off?

Do you not see something contradictory between that and the promised 20% annual return, or the company filing which says explicitly "There is no minimum monthly amount payable to ATM owners and the Company does not guarantee or represent that any ATM owner will receive payments of any amount or that any ATM will generate any number of monthly approved transactions."

6. In my experience with private companies, I have not seen a single thing with NAS that I haven't seen happen elsewhere in businesses that I know to be legitimate.

Spyholes in the office door? Oh, I suppose I could come up with a good explanation, like "That was there when we moved in." But the only placea I've personally seen that were businesses like Charlie Band's Empire Pictures office, and he lived in constant dread of subpoenas and angry debt collectors. This was the NAS Canoga Park office, in a very quiet, safe neighborhood, as I pointed out. But maybe the new Calabasas office is a bit more open.

7. Well if they aren't actively promoting it.... hmm another difference between what was established as facts in those cases posted and NAS

.
Not at all. In fact, their "marketing" (or lack of it) precisely duplicates the way the illegal ATM enterprises operated (as well as assorted illegal set-ups): private word-of-mouth and personal recommendation, a classic example (as pointed out above) or the "affinity con." The fact that none of these enterprises do any sort of "advertising" beyond happy customer referrals is an indicator of something funky. (This, too, has been covered before.) Scarcely exculpatory, this is actually indicative of an outfit intentionally maintaining a low profile.

Not that this is the case here, of course. There are perfectly acceptable explanations to each point.

[worried]

How's this for 'focused'?

Don't forget, people:

Seek professional advice before handing over your money

Don't let anybody fool you into thinking it's not necessary by saying things like:
"well, you know, people got ripped off by Enron and they had professional advice";

or,
"what can it hurt to buy just one machine and see how it goes?" (Go read about 'claw-back');

or,
"you can't PROVE it's a scam, therefore it must be ok".... THAT's the best one of all.... No, the point of investing is first getting proof that it's not a scam... Enron wasn't a blatant Ponzi 'leaseback scheme', it was a legitimate hole in our market system. Blatant Ponzi schemes are NOT a hole in our system, that hole is fully plugged by law, it's just that people still break that law and people still fall for it... Again, don't let anybody lull you into thinking it's ok to hand over tens of thousands of $ or more without spending a couple hundred on REAL advice first.

[JamesVincent]

I was waiting for you to show up. At least you stay focused.
Thats funny, anyone that knows me in reallife will tell you my ADHD rivals my kids and sometimes surpasses them. But thank you anyway.


1. I've looked up almost all affiliated companies and none of them have much web presence. This includes the one RBS spun off. All the press I've seen from NAS is advertising to business owners trying to secure locations. I haven't seen anything regarding them advertising a business opportunity for investors.

2.lol there is no way I'm going to sit down, go through a 30 page document, blot out all identifying info, scan it in, upload it on some public hosting site, and then link to it here. I'm here to see if anyone can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the company is a fraud. I don't feel like I need to prove innocence so if you want to see one, ask for one and simply don't return it. I still don't know why not a single concerned soul won't call directly and ask for a rundown of the business model. I did promise you that I'd tell you the name of the processor sending me the monthly statements and I should get my next one either Saturday or Monday.

3. The numbers don't make sense how? Do you find them impossible or a rip off to the investor?Assuming my numbers, is a 12.5% rev share impossible to pull off?

4. As I stated before, I have lots of money in the stock market and have doubts. Even with third party audits they only provide REASONABLE ASSURANCE, and that's with publically traded companies. The point is all investments have inherent risks, and NAS has inherent risks too.

5. There are several models to choose from and I think the make was Triton or something. I know he mentioned something with a T that's manufactured in Ohio. I think I mentioned this along with the several different models he uses in a prior post.

6. In my experience with private companies, I have not seen a single thing with NAS that I haven't seen happen elsewhere in businesses that I know to be legitimate.

7. Well if they aren't actively promoting it.... hmm another difference between what was established as facts in those cases posted and NAS.

1. Neither have I. And that raises a red flag to me. It may not mean that they in particular are shady, but is often a trademark of a shady company.

2. And I have no intention on calling a company I have no real interest in or have a stake in. And the contract would be meaningless to anyone not an attorney or an investment specialist which I am not but others here are.

3. I'm pretty sure I went through this before. If 2+2 equals something other then 4 then the numbers are off. And if it costs $12k to "buy" a $5k machine then they're equaling 7. If, and that's a big if, if they are correct in the cost, even described to you as $8k, then they are still pocketing a good chunk of ducketts from the get go. However; it seems that they are using that money to pay off solicitors which is a trait of a MLM and which this company sounds more and more like as people post. The whole word of mouth, "incentives", kinda hinky business practices, crappy customer service (as reported by BeverlyHills whatever), etc. Also the form that MarvinGardens posted stated a cost of $19,800 which is completely different from what you and that other Dude posted. So... they don't add up.

4. And I would think that reasonable doubt exists. The whole point of many posts in this thread IS that reasonable doubt exists and the people would want others to see that doubt and the reasoning behind it. In fact the whole point of this forum is to educate others on what to look for and to help others avoid being scammed.

5. The only thing you had said before was that they came from Ohio. Triton is headquartered in Mississippi. The only manufacturer I remember being headquartered and manufactured in Ohio is Diebold. The only reason I remember that is a good friend of mines father was a mid level executive for Diebold and was with the company for over 40 years. He had to travel to Ohio for conferences and what not. The best ATMs, like a lot of things, are manufactured overseas.

6. I don't know what companies you were dealing with and, if this seems normal, I probably don't want to know. There has been quite a few things that have come up that I, Observer and others, have pointed out is not how a "normal" company acts. The whole concept of paying out at least 20% of your intake, for no reason, is not normal. Would be much cheaper, more cost effective, generate more and better profits and make much more sense to use a lending institution to generate the upfront capital then the business model they are using. UNLESS.... they are doing it for another purpose, like I had talked about before with the possibility of using the "investors" as a tax shelter.

7. Not really. Several of the leaseback companies busted used the exact same, word of mouth, advertising. AND... at the end of the day every single one was ruled to be selling securities illegally, IIRC. Again, something that has been brought up several times.

[The Observer]

There has been quite a few things that have come up that I, Observer and others, have pointed out is not how a "normal" company acts. The whole concept of paying out at least 20% of your intake, for no reason, is not normal. Would be much cheaper, more cost effective, generate more and better profits and make much more sense to use a lending institution to generate the upfront capital then the business model they are using.

And it is the issue that none of the pro-ATM leaseback investors have responded to. I would love to see a reasonable explanation of why a company would turn over 20% of profits to outside investors that instead could be kept in-house and shared by the stockholders/owners. I suspect that one argument would be that the company does not have the capital to keep purchasing new machines, but the counter to that is what bank or commercial lender in their right mind would refuse to provide loans on a business that is bringing in that much profit? And what CEO/CFO would not move heaven and earth to secure the capital needed, even it was at 5-7% interest rate, so that they could keep the profits in house?

This is where the train goes off the rails for me. As they say, if it sounds too good to be true, it is something you need to walk away from.

[JamesVincent]

I suspect that one argument would be that the company does not have the capital to keep purchasing new machines, but the counter to that is what bank or commercial lender in their right mind would refuse to provide loans on a business that is bringing in that much profit?

One thing I will agree wholeheartedly is that ATMs are profitable. Per the numbers we discussed before a single ATM "should" generate enough income to buy another at the end of the year, and that's assuming they are spending as much as they claim. A more reasonable cost of $3k or so they should be doing it every 6 months. I could see using loans to get started and get through the first few years but after, what, 18 years was it, they should be generating more then enough that they could be cycling every 4 months or less. I would agree with getting the loans, like I said before I was told not to use your own capital whenever possible, but I'll be damned if I would put out that kind of outlay... for nothing. No obvious return at all, just throwing it away. There would have to be a good reason for it.

[worried]

Before you hand over your money:

Get REAL legal/financial advice,... how?...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2 ... l-advisor/

The above link spells it out in plain language: where to look for advisors, and where to check on them (to make sure they're GOOD advisors). The article is targeted to people looking for more advice/services than you might be looking for, but that's OK, just find someone and ask them about your 'investment' idea. It'll be really easy, and it'll be worth the few bucks to make sure you're not just blindly handing your (and your family's) future over to a con man...

And,... since you're on this forum, you were searching for info on Gillis and NASI... note that some of his 'supporters' on this forum actually try to discourage/discredit the idea of getting INDEPENDENT advice... that is the biggest red flag of all...

[Tednewsom]

A note to the proponents of the company, and to the more skeptical observers and critics: I do think discussion of the situation is helpful. I don't think the firmer skeptics will convince any happy customers they're being taken for a long ride off a short pier; the arguments of the NAS subscribers (both the logical or the "I got mine, What-- Me Worry?" kind) will not, I think, convince the critics of the business plan, the promised returns or the assurances of legitimacy.

I still have a question, which I posed in the OP: "Are there ANY firms that run an "ATM leaseback program" which AREN'T scams?"

And the weird thing is... the answer seems to be "No." Weird, huh?

On the web, there are a number of commercial sites for companies which tell you how to go into the business of leasing (or buying) your own machine and even creating your own placement service. There are any number of manufactures of the machines who will sell them to either would-be ATM moguls or to the owners of the locations themselves. There are numerous criminal reports of lease-back companies operating in precisely the same way. And there are repeated pick-ups of FBI lists of common scams, which warn against lease-back schemes (ATMS, office equipment, and pay phones, though the latter seems obsolete.)

But there do not seem to be any other companies which operate like this. Why not?

The business plan seems straightforward; the process of gathering customers and placing the machines seems simple. The procedure is said to be solid, and the returns more than one might expect, and consistent. Such a deal.

Yet as even one of the strongest proponents of this company state, the 'net seems void of information on any competing company in the same racket -- or, really, any information on ATM lease-backs at all. No entrepreneur has said, "Hey, they're making money. I'm going to start a company just like that."

[worried]

Except, you CAN find information about other ATM leaseback operations out there. It's just that every OTHER one you can find on the 'net has been busted for being a scam... hmmm...

[worried]

... and, if the ATM leaseback scheme doesn't need to be registered as a 'security' with the SEC,... then, why did Gillis do exactly that?:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/conta ... 000655.txt

Tednewsom has pointed this out and I noticed it too a couple of years ago when I first researched this: in the official securities registration application, it specifically says that profit is to be made ONLY by selling machines and there is NO obligation to send customers money after that.... but then, that registration (for ATM Holdings, Nevada) was allowed to expire due to non-payment of fees a few years later as Gillis just kept peddling 'guaranteed income' to people disguised as NASI (not registered). ... so... why register an ATM leaseback business as a security in the first place if it was never necessary? Just for the appearance of legitimacy when he first got started? Just in case anybody checked, they'd see a registration with NASI at least mentioned in it, but after a while, he realized nobody cared (and the general population of elderly people weren't as internet savvy in the mid-late '90s) and just let it lapse and continued to operate the unregistered NASI(?).

Just hire professional advice... whether you're already 'invested' in NASI or just thinking about it.

[worried]

Honestly,... if I was involved in this scam.... I'd be trying to exercise that 'get your money back at any time' guarantee before everybody else does and there's no money left... and HOPE that when the authorities get involved the 'trustee' doesn't come looking to 'clawback' some of your money (even if you only broke even) to pay SOMETHING to some of the bigger losers, but I would keep that money handy just in case, you don't want the government seizing your house and selling it do you?.... obviously, legal advice would be real handy about now...

and... just in case... I would talk to a lawyer BEFORE you ask for your money back. If there's a LOT of money at stake, people are liable to do ANYTHING, especially if they're already breaking the law. I would have a lawyer or accountant contact NASI and ask for your money back just so he knows that if something happens to you it'll be VERY suspicious... think about it. I think it's more likely he'll just disappear, but you can't be too careful in this situation...

[worried]

Since some posters bring up companies like Enron (as a way to prove to you the uselessness of getting professional advice), think about what those epic crashes were supposed to teach everybody: DIVERSIFY! ... Those that got swept up in the craze and put ALL their money in one place because it was 'just too good to pass up', lost EVERYTHING... Putting all your money in one place is NEVER a good idea, even with legitimate, stable businesses you just NEVER know what could happen.

If I only had $10k, I wouldn't put it all in a single investment like an ATM machine (not even if I was buying it/them myself and doing all the work to place/operate/service them). I would be looking for a decent mutual fund to get started investing. Sure, I'd have to read up on how all that works, but that's kind of the point, right? Being smart with your own money, right? With a good, well established mutual fund, at least you have diversification within that fund, that's why their performance is pretty steady. If you're at the point of just getting started investing, I can't think of a better way to start. Later on you can get into all the arguments about the pros and cons of mutual funds if you want, but at least you'll have educated yourself enough to get there. If you have $10k or more and REALLY want to get into ATM's, try to get a cheaper model (~$2k?) and do the work yourself and invest the rest in a mutual fund... you may lose that ~$2k+ in the end, but at least you didn't lose EVERYTHING and you learned something.

If you have tens or hundreds of thousands of $ to invest, good for you and whatever combination of hard work and good fortune got you there... now DON'T FRITTER AWAY the product of that hard work/good fortune by NOT DIVERSIFYING and just putting it all in one 'too good to pass up' investment just because it's easier than educating yourself and doing the right thing... hiring real professional advice is a good idea for you if you have that much money! .... If you're not getting this same simple advice from the people that want you to hand over all your money to, then that is a red flag!

[worried]

This is worse than I thought...

page 39 shows that 'significant shareholders' (that's Gillis and Wishner) have been steadily 'loaning' money to a company that was clearly going down the drain. This in addition to the 'line of credit' extended by NASI:
http://quote.morningstar.com/stock-fili ... a3744433f2


FDOC is now defunct:
http://quote.morningstar.com/stock/char ... ture=en-US

Fuel Doctor is actually owned by a company in Thailand

For the list of 10-Q and 10-K reports:
http://quicktake.morningstar.com/stockn ... ymbol=fdoc

Fuel Doctor's address is:
23961 Craftsman Road Suite, LM
Calabasas, California 91302

that address is literally just down the road and around the corner, 0.3 miles away from NASI office at 5000 Parkway Calabassas, Calabassas Ca

Fuel Doctor has been sued for securities fraud (it's in one of the 10-Q reports, the last one I think)

ok... nobody really doesn't know that the 'Fuel Doctor' was never anything more than an obviously fraudulent product and it was (if not still) the subject of several lawsuits... money has steadily disappeared into Fuel Doctor, now never to be seen again...
The nearest I can figure from looking at the last ANNUAL report on the Morningstar site, Gillis and Wishner DID own about 15% (each) of about $5.5M worth of stock, that's about $825k each that went POOF along with several personal loans of more than $100k each (and I haven't looked through all the reports yet), AND the $1.2M+ loan from NASI... is some of that money YOURS??!!

How in the world can any of this NOT be a red flag?

I looked at the next earliest quarterly report (Sep 2011):
http://quote.morningstar.com/stock-fili ... d0a4d23b95
search for 'gillis' and scroll down just a few lines, there's OVER a MILLION dollars given in 'loans' from significant shareholders AND NASI to FD... some of this may be repeated in earlier/later reports, I don't know, this isn't my specialty... but it doesn't look good that's for sure...

[worried]

So... here's an interesting question to ask yourself:

Would you buy the Fuel Doctor? Are you one of the types that would, despite all the evidence to the contrary (Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, etc., all calling it a fraud), argue that you've seen the positive results with your own eyes when doing your very own 'scientific testing'?

Are you doing exactly the same thing to yourself with the ATM leaseback scheme? Are you fooling yourself because you WANT to believe it's not a scam? Is it just PURE COINCIDENCE that the operators of an ATM leaseback scheme (which have been busted many times as scams) are involved with an auto part scam?

How, and why, in the world did Fuel Doctor buy out 'Silverhill Management' (a 'business management services company that never actually did any business management) after the owner of that company had already collected $62k from investors AND taken out $200k in loans against the company, only to immediately FORGIVE those loans to that owner (it's all in the 10-k reports)? What in the world is the connection? It's only then that Gillis and Wishner show up in the Fuel Doctor paperwork (the previous quarter it was simply 'Silverhill Management'). Strangely, the reports just state matter-of-factly that the business services company instantly became an auto parts business which was at least 10 times more in debt than the previous company. Gillis and Wishner happened to already be 'significant shareholders' as well as personal creditors to THIS business.

This is just pure speculation on my part: how easy would it be to exaggerate the amount of product (in units and dollars) sitting in a warehouse in China? How would anybody be able to check on that when you claim bankruptcy and tell everybody "sorry, nothing I can do, we built $1.4M worth of product but now we can't sell it... total loss"... convenient, no? ... But, in the larger picture, we're only talking onesies, twosies of millions of $, here. That's not enough to disappear with. What else has been going on that ISN'T visible to rubes like me who only know how to google stuff in my spare time?

[worried]

How do you know it's NOT a scam? How do you know that the government isn't, at some point in the future, going to come to you, or your heirs, and demand money back (seizing whatever is necessary)? How are you going to feel then? What if you even sacrificed personal relationships to be able to build up that inheritance only to have it stolen by a scam?

Look, I could be a total crackpot-nutjob-conspiracy theorist (but I'm not the only one apparently) ... get real professional legal/financial advice...

[Tednewsom]

The other team seems conspicuous by its absence and silence.


Crickets.

[worried]

JUST for the comic relief you HAVE to read this:

http://www.compendiumarcana.com/fuel_doctor_fd47/

you can skip all the technical analysis that shows why the FD is quackery... the good part is at the very bottom! Hilarious! It's always nice to see people writing with a sense of humor!... what exactly is 'ho-slandering' anyway?