ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[worried]

I wonder what would happen if somebody DID cold-call Joel and ask to invest in his ATM's? They would have to say they stumbled on this forum searching for investment opportunities and, despite all the negativity, they really like the idea and want to invest. Would Joel welcome them in? Wouldn't he have to? Wouldn't a refusal to take ONLY 'referred' business be a red flag to any sneaky law enforcement types who might be cold-calling specifically for that purpose?

For whatever reason, Joel 'needs' new 'investors' badly enough to part with money to pay referral bonuses, but he doesn't just add a few words on the internet advertisements he already pays for to solicit new investors. Sure, 'needing' new investors doesn't mean it's a scam, a business might only 'need' new investment to meet growth goals, not necessarily to make outgoing payments. But, what legitimate business that 'needs' or 'desires' new investment enough to pay bounties, wouldn't add those few lines to advertisements they already pay for? I know I'm harping on the same thing over and over, but I'm just wondering if ANYBODY can point out why this is NOT a very strong indication (proof?) of a scam.

[Tednewsom]

I'm just wondering if ANYBODY can point out why this is NOT a very strong indication (proof?) of a scam.

Because... uhhh... he's a really nice guy and picks up the tab for lunch?

[webhick]

If it's a Ponzi, which it probably is, he has to keep upping the price on new "investments" to keep the payouts going on the old "investments".

[worried]

That could be true too. I hadn't thought of the 'inflationary aspect' of it. But the $12k price is still being offered as well. Aside from the higher price forcing 'investors' to buy fewer, but bigger 'annuities', it raises the minimum buy-in. Is that an attempt at making it seem 'elite'? Who knows, I don't think Joel is stupid, but I don't think it requires much thought to experiment with different price levels just to see what happens. That may be all it is.

If people go for the bigger buy-in, in the case of those that can only swing '1 ATM' and are willing to stretch for that higher buy-in amount, that helps Joel in the way you're suggesting of course. For others, according to the anecdotes (and my own personal experience), that minimum buy-in price isn't an issue, they go 'all-in' with a 'life's-work' worth of effort, losses, victories, savings and sacrifices (even personal relationships are sacrificed).

From the anecdotes related on this board, this Ponzi scheme has to easily be in the tens of millions by now and probably more. Maybe that higher price gives the high-rollers that 'elite' feeling... I'm just guessing at all this, this is not my specialty ....

I know I've been monopolizing this board for the past month or so, and I apologize ... I would NEVER have cared one bit about any of this if I didn't have a close family member who is one of those 'all-in' people... I got concerned when I saw what seemed like efforts to confuse and obfuscate the issue with endless arguments, so I attempted to refocus on reality (paying for professional advice), though I may have been a little heavy handed and judgemental... I just want it to be over with....

[worried]

I found this at:
http://companies.findthecompany.com/l/2 ... iew/314613

"Nationwide Automated Systems, Inc in Calabasas CA
"Disgruntled Investor"
Now that I'm ready to withdraw my initial investment I find that Joel responds neither to my certified letter nor my phone calls. Has anyone experienced this problem?"

This post appears to be 3 months old. The poster's name appears to be Shirley Reisman. I would imagine that she got a prompt response after that post ... ? .... anybody out there know anything?

[webhick]

Upthread, it was said that Joel was totally willing to do refunds but now that someone wants one, it's not coming. Sounds like this Ponzi may be starting to collapse in on itself.

[Tednewsom]

Not a good sign.

[worried]

Shirley's post doesn't sound like the same giddy, 'true-believers' that we heard from on this board. But, she could have been paid off promptly after that post making her happy once again. But, if that DID happen, I would suspect that she would have posted an update to that site... or Joel would have asked her too.... maybe she just didn't think about it and Joel doesn't know about it...??...

But, for this to even happen at all means that Joel and Ed are slipping, they're not staying on top of things. Having ANYBODY complain publicly at ALL is the one thing they HAD to avoid, and DID, all these years. It must be getting beyond their ability to manage now. Neither one of them are spring chickens anymore...

[worried]

This isn't adding much to the discussion, I know, but... I was looking for a website I stumbled on a couple of weeks ago but can't find now in which NASI was mentioned in passing...

Interesting that the state of Texas SPECIFICALLY warns insurance agents about scammers that recruit them into scams... (Joel is a former insurance salesman btw, Ed is the accountant, hmmm...)
http://www.ssb.state.tx.us/Registration ... Agents.php

Then there's this (although I think it's a ten year old article):
http://www.leasingnews.org/Conscious-To ... L_scam.htm

Then there's this call-out in a book basically telling people that if you don't know that ATM leaseback schemes are a SCAM, then you've been living under a ROCK since 1996 when the law was changed to allow profit-generating fees sparking the boom in ATM's (and ATM scams). (I found the part about the law changing in some other article I ran across but can't find now.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=8cKJ2R ... es&f=false

[Boardwalk John]

I am a former investor in NASI and can confirm that the solicitations have become more promotional over the past year. Initially the announcement was 'an unusual opportunity to purchase ATMs at the best returns ever', which was 'over 20%. The latest is, as other posters have referenced, ATMs with 20% to 30%' returns. The solicitation also commented that those who may not have been able to buy machines last time they were offered (presumably because demand was too high) may be able to buy this time with higher returns. I am trilled to no longer be an investor, and hope I will not be dragged back in as former Madoff investors have been, but I do not wish anyone else to be defrauded by these too good to be trusted returns. A 20% return at a $19,800 investment (and I realize the entry price has varied depending on what JG quoted and what the referring friend of the investor paid but the return % math has been constant) but a 20% return requires 650 transactions and a 30% return would imply 975 transactions). Both levels are far beyond the volume of of virtually all ATMs in force. NASI claimed to me that the principals keep the best (and worst) performing ATMs and offer the balance to investors. A friend in the business told me few machines have more than 250 "hits" a month and questioned why anyone would ever sell such high performing ATMs yet NASI has recently been able to find sellers of such high return machines twice in the past 24 months. Who would sell ATMs that yielded enough for NASI to buy them, take their spread, and resell them for a 20-30% return? If NASI actually buys the ATMs with the highest returns imagine what the unleveraged ROI for those puppies must be! Pretty clever in a world where ATMs return 7% annually.

I appreciate the commentators on this board whose logic forced me to acknowledge what I quietly knew but refrained to act upon -that there is no free lunch and there is certainly no 20%+ risk free return in a world where government 10 year returns are less than 3% and bank cd rates are around 1%.

For those deniers that read these posts I wish you no harm but think you should re-read some of the excellent prior posts on this site and ask yourself why you have been so lucky to have found that one in 100 million investment that offers a no risk 20% return in a risky world that yields so little in the cd and treasury markets. The drug may make you feel good (and provide extra cash) but when the yogurt hits the fan the hangover will be a big time bitch.

[rogfulton]

Welcome to Quatloos, Boardwalk John!

An excellent first post. I hope we can look forward to many more.

[worried]

Wow!.... Welcome Boardwalk John!... It is amazing to finally hear that this forum has actually made a difference! You have every reason to be proud of yourself for doing the right thing. And THANK YOU for being able to say so online.

Questions:
1. Did you ask for the 'buyout' of your machines when you got out, and did Joel/Ed give you ANY trouble at all about it?

2. Were you in a 'break-even' position, or above or below that line when you got out?

3. Have you talked with other investors that you know about your decision to get out? Have you referred them to this forum?

4. If you can, can you give us an idea of how big your stake was? General numbers are fine, I (and others I'm sure) are curious about the total size of the scam, your input, along with some of the other anecdotes helps in that regard.

5. How long ago did you 'get out'?

6. What led you to this forum in the first place? Were you just driven by your subconscious to continue to seek out information even though you had already invested, or were you pointed to it by another investor?

Thank you again for letting us know that this board is working! My aim is to minimize the pain that is GOING to be felt by my family member, and since that family member won't listen to me, this seems to be the only way I can contribute to that. I (and I'm sure others have too) have reported this scam to the SEC and even scanned and sent them a copy of the contract that was given to me, but I don't think they're going to do anything until, unfortunately, a large number of people get hurt. I would encourage you to go to the SEC website and report the NASI Ponzi scam, it can't hurt and it doesn't take too long.

I would love to hear from Shirley Reisman! Or even SomeYuppie, who I think has simply done a great job of fooling him/herself using flawed logic (which became evident in his/her posts), and I think is a great example of how ANY of us can be taken advantage of by using our own 'human-ness' (desire/ability to BELIEVE) against us. This really is tragic, and not just a bunch of 'greedy gullible people getting what they deserve'. People who run these scams achieve their goal of living the 'high life' in their remaining 'quality years' by destroying other people's dreams and lives.

[Boardwalk John]

I did not have any problem getting my investment returned by NASI. I'm not certain how to define "break even"; I received my investment back can kept the monthly payments I received while I was an active investor. My return was, as promised, 20% (actually slightly higher because of the modest overage of ATM withdrawals that occurred in most months).

I truly hope your family member requests termination of his / her investment and receives an orderly repayment.

[worried]

...A friend in the business told me few machines have more than 250 "hits" a month and questioned why anyone would ever sell such high performing ATMs ...

I, and others here I'm sure, would love to hear from your friend on this board. There has been at least one other poster on this board who is knowledgeable about ATMs. Your friend sounds like he can provide additional information. I think most people who come to this board are either, like yourself, questioning their decision to invest or are considering whether to jump in and are interested to know how to tell if the ATM leaseback is legitimate or not. Maybe your friend can help in that regard.

Despite what some readers may think of some of us commenting on this board, I know I'm not the only one who would LOVE to find out that all my suspicions are truly unfounded and my family member really IS safe and sound financially. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like your friend was able to tell you anything of the sort. That doesn't mean we're not open to hearing evidence (but it has to be real 'evidence', not just more of the same sales pitch of "see.. look at my bank statements"). If your friend knows of a way to PROVE one way or the other whether the ATM leaseback scheme is legitimate, that would be REALLY interesting to everybody.

Thanks again for your post and hope to hear more.

[worried]

One more thing to Boardwalk John:
You said you have received 'solicitations' from NASI. I suspect those are in the form of email? If so, then, any one of you that have received those solicitations could provide a way for the SEC/FBI to track all the OTHER investor/victims through ISPs enabling the authorities to notify them of their rights (when the authorities finally get involved, which will hopefully be sooner rather than later, and HOPEFULLY the authorities are able to freeze enough of the principal perpetrator's assets to significantly minimize the pain to you and all other victims). For the sake of yourself and all the other victims, I ask you to at least consider, once again, reporting NASI to the SEC and providing your own information to go along with information they already have from myself and others. All I can do is ask, and I'm not judging you harshly for ANY decision you make.

To everyone else:
Speaking of perpetrators... a couple of weeks ago I was looking for a website that I had run across several weeks before in which NASI was mentioned in passing (but I can't find the website now, darn it,... it was another discussion board like Quatloos). The gist of the conversation was a description of one person's attendance at a vacation property time-share sales seminar in which this person was approached by someone during one of the breaks and given a quick solicitation for the NASI leaseback scheme. The person writing the blog noted how it seemed strange that this other person just HAPPENED to have their current bank statement ready to 'PROVE' that the leaseback scheme was legitimate.... no more was said of NASI on that discussion board that I saw at the time. But, it occurred to me later that the use of the bank statement as fallacious proof is not only an indicator of a 'con', but those people that use such tactics in pursuit of that 'referral bonus' REALLY run the risk of being considered PRINCIPAL PERPETRATORS of the Ponzi scheme themselves! Think about it, if you're one of the people actively recruiting and BENEFITING from that recruiting, that puts you in a much different class from the rest of the 'victims' who simply 'invested' and received 'returns' on that investment. Sure, you're not absconding with (and hiding in failed business ventures like the Fuel Doctor) millions of dollars like I suspect Joel and Ed of doing, but,... and here's the KEY: how can you PROVE you DON'T know it's a scam when YOU are actively promoting the scam using techniques of con-men? That's going to be a big problem for you... If you referred one or two people, well, big deal, I'm sure the FBI won't bother too much with you... but if you're out there trolling seminars and other congregations of older people who have money they're looking to spend, then that's something different. ... something to think about, no?...

[Boardwalk John]

I did not receive any email messages from NASI, all correspondence was by mail. I also am not clear on what basis I would / could file a complaint against NASI- they paid me the contractual monthly minimum (and often more) on a timely basis and promptly returned my investment upon my request. I am not certain my friend who makes a living buying, placing and servicing ATMs in the NYC area can speak any more convincingly than that the CEO of Tremont Capital does in the video provided earlier by MarvinGardens. Both believe ATM industry returns are in the mid-high single digits. Finally, I am unable to supply a "smoking gun" to existing investors or regulations that could bring down NASI but firmly believe we are not in a world where one can find a low / no risk invest that consistently provides 20%+ returns to passive investors.

[worried]

Interesting... no electronic communications... of course they could claim they were always suspicious of the NSA even before 9/11 ... but there's still such a thing as 'mail fraud' I think...

And, according to the short questionnaire I answered on the SEC site, they ARE interested in unregistered securities, and the promise of HIGH, GUARANTEED returns. I don't know for sure how much it helps, but it doesn't hurt...

[worried]

It's interesting that Boardwalk John says that the NAS communications have become more 'promotional' (desperate?) over the last year. That happens to coincide with the last 12 pages of discussion on this forum covering a year from Apr 2013 to Mar 2014... coincidence?...

If I were an active 'investor', I would start getting real nervous every time I hear of Joel and Ed being 'on vacation', ESPECIALLY if that vacation is out of the country... at the FIRST sign of a missed payment or lack of responses to your requests for refunds/payments... at the FIRST mention of 'troubles with payment processing company', etc..., call the SEC/FBI... it may already be too late then, but, why wait?

There have been over 70,000 hits on this forum since it's inception, over 10,000 just in the last few months by my informal tracking. That's a LOT of people that are curious about NASI... we know at LEAST one of them was an investor who read this forum and finally saw the light. I think the chances are pretty small that he was the ONLY one. How many potential NEW investors have seen this forum and decided against getting involved? How badly has that affected Joel's recruiting rate as well as the investor exit rate resulting in the 'more promotional' sales pitches during the same time that this forum really heated up?

I've seen claims that NASI has over 20,000 ATM's under control. At $12,000 each, that's $240,000,000. Now, I don't necessarily believe that claim, and supposedly they're not all paid for by investors anyway, right? But, I don't think that number would be LOWER than reality, and from the anecdotes, the total size of the scam has to be AT LEAST a couple $million, so the real size of the scam after almost 20 years has to be somewhere between a few million and that $240M number. The SEC website brags about busting a bunch of Ponzi schemes, some of them as small as a few tens of $millions of dollars in size, I think we're going to be hearing about this one in the news, or at least see it on the SEC brag page...

Playing with some exponential growth curves in Excel and plugging in quantities kind of roughly in line with some of the anecdotes (including dates, etc.), one can easily see that the size of a scam (that produces enough return to be worth running) after 20 years can get unwieldy even if that growth curve is carefully managed (limiting 'sales' at times) by somebody knowledgeable in such things (and also in laundering money, like say, an accountant). But the quantity of money potentially socked away can be sizable too... enough to disappear with?... I don't know, just more for all you current and potential investors to think about...

There's another angle to think about: the psychology of the Ponzi scammers. So many of them just get caught and put in jail, even Madoff who KNEW he was going to get caught eventually. Why? Why do they just sit and wait to get caught when they clearly have enough money to disappear with (or is that harder than I think it is?... all those scenes and plots from organized crime movies come to mind)? Is it because they literally don't care past a certain age after they've already had their fun at everyone else's expense? Will they just continue until they just can't handle it anymore and wait to get caught with a big smirk on their face like Madoff saying: "I can't believe you didn't catch me 10 years ago!"... puzzling isn't it? Hard to understand that mindset, which makes it easier to believe that they COULDN'T be scammers, right? They seem so NICE!....

[worried]

And what's happened to the supporters of NASI posting on this forum? For a little while there was a spate of posts exclaiming that, since NASI can't be PROVEN to be a scam, THEN it's perfectly alright to invest heavily in it! Without asking for professional advice first! Well, SomeYuppie did eventually agree professional advice is a good idea, except he/she apparently didn't get it him/herself... Where are those people now?

How silly does that concept seem when looked at from the right perspective: An investment looks identical to other known, and busted, scams, but since it can't be PROVEN to be a scam (by design by the way, at least until the scam implodes), then it must be legitimate and a safe place for your family's inheritance...??... where are those happy, but indignant investors now with their mocking advice to go invest in "companies like Enron"? ... could they really be quietly consulting professionals like MarvinGardens? Do I dare hope that much?....

[webhick]

I'm in no mood to go back through 13 pages of posts, but I thought one of the supporters was supposed to get us the name of the independent agency which produces the monthly reports. I do not recall that happening. At this point, I would love to see a copy of the report (sanitized, of course).

Also, have any of the supporters gone up to the ATM, run a transaction and saw it on the report? Heck, if any are located near me in the NH area I might be willing to process a transaction just to see if it showed up on the report. Of course, before doing so I would need the investor to agree to email me a copy of an unsanitized report so I could confirm my transaction myself. No matter the outcome I would sanitize both my ATM receipt and the report and post that.

And I'm off to work. Sorry if this is a bit incomplete.