Dean Clifford - A Tale of Two Gurus

[Burnaby49]

While Menard and freemen in general are entertaining, it probably isn't really wise to be on a first-name basis with them. Burnaby's exposure, while providing first-hand real results, is a greater risk than I'd be willing to take.

My wife has been bringing up the same point. I plan to continue attending trials but in future I think I'll skip the seminars and meetings. I've been checking out Facebook pages and some of these guys are getting desperate and potentially even more unstable. Crazies like Fearn are best avoided and, since he is on the run, he might yet end up here.

[rumpelstilzchen]

While Menard and freemen in general are entertaining, it probably isn't really wise to be on a first-name basis with them.

Menard constantly plays the "Oooh you are hiding behind an anonymous ID" card. He used to do that on Icke's all the time. When there is a refusal to identify oneself to these whackjobs he takes that as being some kind of victory for himself. That's why we see him throw down these challenges.

[notorial dissent]

I also wouldn't recommend going for lunch with him. You'd probably wind up paying the bill, and you wouldn't be allowed in the Cactus Club.

Probably? I think there is more likelihood of the sun not coming up in the morning than Bobby paying his part of a check, let alone actually picking one up.

I personally cannot think of anyone I would less like to break bread with, let alone sit in close proximity to.

I hadn't realized that Bobby had such a potty mouth, but then, when you really don't have facts, reason, or reality, let alone sanity, on your side, there isn't much left, particularly for the less than linguistically gifted and socially challenged.

[arayder]

While Menard and freemen in general are entertaining, it probably isn't really wise to be on a first-name basis with them.

Menard constantly plays the "Oooh you are hiding behind an anonymous ID" card. He used to do that on Icke's all the time. When there is a refusal to identify oneself to these whackjobs he takes that as being some kind of victory for himself. That's why we see him throw down these challenges.

Bobby says he knows the identities of all his debunkers. He's been offered the opportunity to meet face to face with his debunkers and debate.

Fezboy never put up.

One suspects he was busy fluffing the couch pillows of his dupe of the day.

[Jeffrey]

Just throwing this out there Arayder but maybe you should cut back on the Moosehead and freeloader taunts slightly. You made essentially the same insult in the Fearn thread and it may just be me but it really doesn't add anything to the discussion and kind of sets the wrong tone.

[arayder]

Just throwing this out there Arayder but maybe you should cut back on the Moosehead and freeloader taunts slightly. You made essentially the same insult in the Fearn thread and it may just be me but it really doesn't add anything to the discussion and kind of sets the wrong tone.

Okay, no more talk of Menard's drunken, toked up lies for a little while.

Neither will I mention the mile long trail of ruined dupes left in the ole boy's wake. . .for a while.

[Jeffrey]

Well I mean unless there's some actual event that warrants it like someone being added to the list of dupes.

BTW next week marks 4 months of Dean in jail, should send him a cake or something.

[arayder]

Well I mean unless there's some actual event that warrants it like someone being added to the list of dupes.

BTW next week marks 4 months of Dean in jail, should send him a cake or something.

Yeah, Dean's been in for a while despite his "I'll be outta here soon" statements.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Greetings, Quatloosians! First time poster, long time lurker. I've been poking around these forums and JREF ever since encountering one of these freeman folk in court.

I've been perusing some of Dean's audio on youtube and I've come across a few points worth sharing that I haven't seen posted yet.

A few pages back there was some discussion as to the number of charges Dean was facing and the mysterious July 2013 charges. In this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJJc4_QJMpM at the 1:13:30 mark Dean talks about an incident after his release (would have been spring/summer time) being pulled over for not wearing or improperly wearing a seat belt. The freeman routine ensues, followed by an arrest for resisting arrest (x5!) and assaulting a peace officer (x5!). He then gets to spend the weekend in jail before appearing in bail (baal?) court on the Monday. The Crown released him on his own recognizance (victory?). So we know that he was on bail, probably with conditions not to leave the province.

Typically, upon release from bail, the matter gets remanded approximately 4 weeks (which would have given him a court date in August) in order for the accused to get a lawyer and for the Crown to prepare disclosure. This video was published in September and he says himself he didn't bother attending that August court date. Hence, the bench warrant.

So on top of the drug/gun charges and the possibly "unstayed" February charges, it looks like there is a third set of charges, if not more because near the start of that video Dean mentions that there have been "two major incidents" with the police since he got out.

The other interesting thing I found is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3WWbxD ... ND&index=3 in the first two minutes it appears Dean is a holocaust denier.

Anyways, my prediction is that this whole thing will go one of three ways:

1) Dean will prolong the case with his freemanery to the point where he has racked up enough pre-trial custody for the Crown to stay the charges. I find this unlikely though, given the more serious nature of the charges he is now facing. The Crown will want convictions even if it means he gets out right away due to time served (victory!)

2) Dean will plead guilty. Most likely in my opinion, although in a previous video Dean explains that he only "pleads guilty to the facts". I can't remember the context in which he talks about this - it may have been in relation to those February charges. I know there was a video in which Dean talks about a stint in jail, how he could've got out any time he wanted to but he chose to stay in to "try stuff out". Then, when he got tired of jail he "pleaded guilty to the facts".

For those unaware, the way a guilty plea works in Canada is that the clerk reads out the charges and asks for a plea. The accused pleads guilty. The Crown then reads in the facts making out the offence(s). The judge then asks the accused if those facts are true. If the accused admits the facts there is a finding of guilt and the matter proceeds to sentencing. So "pleading guilty to the facts" is nothing more than a straightforward guilty plea. You admit the facts and consequences follow. If Dean finds himself in a time-served position, he will probably do this, get out, and then claim a crushing victory.

3) The matter will go to trial. Unlikely. Something tells me this would attract unwanted media attention that would be impossible to spin.

[Pottapaug1938]

Welcome aboard, Bill, from someone who was once in the same position.

[Jeffrey]

I love you Bill! You listened to a 90 minute radio show with only 37 listens and found gold.

Notice that the DeanClifford.info guys keep claiming the August court date didn't exist yet now we have audio of Dean admitting he knew about the court date and missed it.

I wanna add a caveat, when Dean says "pulled over for not wearing a seat belt", we can pretty much conclude that's bullshit. Even prior to the February arrest the cops had already told him that he couldn't be driving around with a suspended license, no license or without plates, which is why they kept seizing his trucks. If he was driving around in July again after being told he couldn't, and after word has spread around Manitoba police stations that Dean was making it a habit to drive around without plates and fighting with cops and that he was getting more violent after each stop. My guess is they stopped him simply because he was driving. And add to that, each time he drove going back to the vehicle seizures prior to February, would count as a subsequent offense which carry heavier fines and penalties and allows the cops to impound his cars.

I had listened to the Rick Simpson interview and forgot to comment about it. It's pretty ironic that Dean is now facing nearly identical charges to those of Rick Simpson and it hints that Dean's drug operation was more sophisticated than simply a normal grow since you need a bit of paraphernalia to produce the "oil" they refer to. Dean's holocaust denial is definitely in line with his history on Stormfront. He's definitely hidden that part of his persona pretty well although it does sometimes slip out.

In response to your scenarios.

1. Unlikely. If reports are accurate then he's looking at over a decade maximum sentence. His driving without a license alone is six months jail.
2. The "guilty to the facts" was from the February "donuts" arrest. They didn't let him do that in February and I don't think they'll let him do it this time.

I think we should spot Burnaby the money for him to get a list of the charges so we can end the speculation or wait a few weeks for the trial to start so we get an official list of charges.

3. I think this one's more likely. They'll enter a not guilty plea for him. The assault PO is 5 years per, Dean claims 5 instances of him beating up cops (it's a miracle Dean hasn't been shot yet). They might dismiss some of the smaller charges to save time and focus on the big charges but he will still end up with a sentence of several years, Mowe says Canada rarely or never goes for the maximum sentence so there's a huge margin for how large or small the sentence could be but I think there's zero chance of the sentence being less than one year so the "time served" gambit won't work. They might want to make an example out of Dean.

The real mystery is why Dean and company are being so coy about the situation. I think Dean thinks he'll get these charges dismissed and he'll walk free and get paid his millions for his fee schedule. But then why did he miss the August court date, must have been aware at that point he was already facing serious jail time but if he was hiding from the cops why go to a public event and risk arrest. I kind of suspect he wanted the big public arrest to beg for donations, pull another "time served", but fudged the execution since he got busted for the drugs and guns and got Boisenault busted along with him. By the way we haven't heard from Boissenault yet despite being presumably the co-accused.

I wanna propose that we only advertise Dean's court dates after they happen, just to avoid tipping off Dean and his web admin.

[arayder]

Greetings, Quatloosians!. . .

. . .Anyways, my prediction is that this whole thing will go one of three ways:

1) Dean will prolong the case with his freemanery to the point where he has racked up enough pre-trial custody for the Crown to stay the charges. I find this unlikely though, given the more serious nature of the charges he is now facing. The Crown will want convictions even if it means he gets out right away due to time served (victory!)

2) Dean will plead guilty. Most likely in my opinion, although in a previous video Dean explains that he only "pleads guilty to the facts". I can't remember the context in which he talks about this - it may have been in relation to those February charges. I know there was a video in which Dean talks about a stint in jail, how he could've got out any time he wanted to but he chose to stay in to "try stuff out". Then, when he got tired of jail he "pleaded guilty to the facts".

For those unaware, the way a guilty plea works in Canada is that the clerk reads out the charges and asks for a plea. The accused pleads guilty. The Crown then reads in the facts making out the offence(s). The judge then asks the accused if those facts are true. If the accused admits the facts there is a finding of guilt and the matter proceeds to sentencing. So "pleading guilty to the facts" is nothing more than a straightforward guilty plea. You admit the facts and consequences follow. If Dean finds himself in a time-served position, he will probably do this, get out, and then claim a crushing victory.

3) The matter will go to trial. Unlikely. Something tells me this would attract unwanted media attention that would be impossible to spin.

I don't know how it plays in Canada, but here in the states perps like Clifford who get a record of repeated offenses become looked upon by prosecutors as the sort of criminal they throw the book at.

It appears at this point Dean's list of alleged and/or proven crimes over the last couple of years include reckless driving, driving without a license and insurance, resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, failure to appear in court, violation of his bail agreement, cultivation of marihuana and illegal possession of firearms.

I may not have all the terms right and in all fairness to Dean he hasn't yet had his day in court. But if he keeps up his attitude, remains un-recalcitrant, denies the authority of the court and in so doing pisses off the judge I can't help but think he's going to get the maximum.

Many of you know more about this than me. What do you think?

[arayder]

. . .The real mystery is why Dean and company are being so coy about the situation. I think Dean thinks he'll get these charges dismissed and he'll walk free and get paid his millions for his fee schedule. But then why did he miss the August court date, must have been aware at that point he was already facing serious jail time but if he was hiding from the cops why go to a public event and risk arrest. I kind of suspect he wanted the big public arrest to beg for donations, pull another "time served", but fudged the execution since he got busted for the drugs and guns and got Boisenault busted along with him. . . .

Yeah, maybe Dean didn't count on the search of his home and the subsequent drug and firearm charges. He sure pitched a fit about the search, almost like it was something he didn't count on. Dean has gone so far as to opine that his shotgun and Enfield rifle are just antiques.

But if that's the case one has to ask why, last year, Dean went on a freeman/sov web radio show and dared the authorities to do something about his grow-op?

One has to wonder about Dean's judgement.

[notorial dissent]

Bill, Jeffrey, and arayder

Bill, welcome, and thanks for the comments.

The only thing I can really say to this, is something I've said often before, Never underestimate the power of stupid, and Deano seems to have that in mass quantities.

My feeling, is that due to the number of charges, the seriousness of some of them, and the fact that he not only keeps repeating them, but is escalating with each event, that he would be a bad candidate for what seems to be typical Canadian laxity in prosecution and sentencing.

I do think our boy at some, or most levels, thinks he is just going to either walk out of this or talk his way out of it, and that they authorities are going to do what they've always done before and slap his hand and let him go on about his merry freeman business. I would think/hope, starting with the fact that they haven't given in to him so far, and that he has spent the last four months in jail, by his own hand, that they are going to take his "cute" antics seriously and hit him with full charges and jail time this time around, as he isn't going to get the message any other way. That boy done been hit real hard with the stupid stick, and the clue stick doesn't seem to be getting through to him.

The main things that concern me is that he stupid, and arrogant, and getting more so, and has shown that he will escalate his reaction, and has been getting worse each time, and that is not a happy combination of things.

[arayder]

Dean and his brother are accidents waiting to happen.

With each offense, each court date, each day in jail they get more angry and more oppositional.

Dean is well into the phase of freeman rhetoric in which he devalues and dehumanizes cops and judges. I have often held that this sort of talk makes it easier for Dean, Darren and their like minded colleagues to act violently toward authority figures.

I hate to say this, but in my humble opinion, if the courts can't get Dean into some sort of therapy they need to stick the boy away before he really hurts someone.

[Jeffrey]

Just to underline Arayder's point, in Dean's latest Youtube upload, (a re-upload of another guys video), he suggests you shoot child protection services if they try to intervene with your children. His other lectures are peppered with references to gun violence.

I think we've already speculated that the reason they arrested him at the seminar is that he would be unarmed at the seminar, versus trying to arrest him at the house where he'd have access to his firearms.

[arayder]

Just to underline Arayder's point, in Dean's latest Youtube upload, (a re-upload of another guys video), he suggests you shoot child protection services if they try to intervene with your children. His other lectures are peppered with references to gun violence.

Dean is the sort of guru who never takes responsibility for what he does and says.

When accused of inciting his minions to violence Dean claims to follow the freeman "do no harm" rule and says that even if the charge was true each freeman is his own man, outside his influence.

That's just a cop out relying on the Clifford faithful being too indoctrinated to realize that they go to his seminars, watch his Youtubes, read his website, listen to the web radio shows he guests on in order to be told what they are supposed to do.

Every hustler knows the best mark is the one who don't realize he's being scammed. . .indeed doesn't even know he's a mark.

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

Bill - welcome to Quatloos - and some very nice detective work! It's fascinating the things one finds rooting around online with these people - they leave such a long trail of detritus. If the gurus' followers actually bothered to research and observe their heros it would not take long to realize the degree to which their histories are remade, again and again.

In any case, it now seems we have at least three sets of criminal offences in play. Each are separate 'offence scenarios', so that's usually consecutive sentences per cluster. Not so good for Dean getting a short sentence. Repeated offences are an aggravating factor on sentencing, so that inches things up. Fearn v. Canada Customs certainly hints that it is appropriate for a court to take Freemanish antics into account in sentencing - again not a favorable development.

That tidbit about a hash oil operation rather than just a marijuana grow-op is a nice find. I don't ever recall that as an aggravating factor, but it makes sense - volume and sophistication would aggravate a drug production offence.

I think I remember that Dean had posted online - probably on his Facebook account - that he was wandering western Canada in the summer/early fall, doing heroic deeds and seeing great successes. This was in the period after his brother was detained, so I suspect that's linked. That may explain in part why Dean missed his August hearing.

I looked around today to see if I could find any after-action reporting from Dean's last hearing and the associated court protests. Still nothing. I echo others' curiousity as to why we are seeing such a beligerant, confrontational approach from the Clifford Complex, then without any substantial followup. It's not as if they are asking for donations to the Free Dean fund. I keep waiting to see public commentary from one of Dean's Faithful about court materials posted on the deanclifford.info forums - but nothing. They post nothing either on how awesome Dean's promised documents are, nor do they ask where those materials might be. It's puzzling.

We really need a Manitoba agent...

My suggestions for Dean's "Happy Four Months in Remand" care package is a copy of Fearn v. Canada Customs, 2014 ABQB 114, John Galt's radio broadcast, torn from a copy of Atlas Shrugged (it's so herioc!), and a template version of "minister" Belanger's 'Notice to Government Actor as a Private Person' foisted unilateral agreements. Anyone else want to add something?

SMS Möwe

[Bill Lumbergh]

It was really just dumb luck that I came across that little clip. I picked a video that didn't seem too long, since I don't think I can sit through one of those 3-4 hour marathons with people calling in who have very real and sometimes very serious financial/criminal/family legal problems.These are people who need proper legal/financial advice and instead they get served up a pile of woo. It's heartbreaking stuff.

In other news, last week it was announced that Vic Toews has been appointed to the Manitoba Queen's Bench in Winnipeg. Mr. Toews was the Conservative politician who was the mastermind behind Canada's recent "tough on crime" legislation, including some of the mandatory minimums for drug/gun offences that Dean may be facing. Now wouldn't it be grand if he was assigned to this trial?

[arayder]

Thanks to you, Bill, we have Dean Clifford on tape lying to his followers. In the web radio show you linked us to Dean admits he had an August bail hearing, that he knew all about it and just didn't bother to attend.

But when arrested in November for violation of the terms of his bail Dean vociferously stated that the bail hearing was never scheduled and never happened. Telling his followers that he couldn't find the hearing on the web (that's pretty weak) he hoped to fool his followers into believing the hearing was never scheduled.

That's a ding dang lie! Dean stated, with his own little lying mouth, that the hearing was scheduled!

Do you hear me, Team Dean?

That's a lie!

Dean lied big time!