Dean Clifford - A Tale of Two Gurus

[arayder]

Certainly don't take it as being my position that they were right, or that they didn't deserve what they got. I was just explaining how one could understand what would bring someone to such a mental faculty. . .

. . . Do stories about Warren Buffet paying less tax than his secretary, or senators spending $350k a year on "travel" give anyone a feeling of fairness? Those stories elicit an emotional angry response which can skew ones perception of reality. The reality that those instances are very isolated and don't reflect fact that the larger majority of our society doesn't steal from the public purse and in fact pays their taxes. . .

. . .This society relies on community perception and will pursue those that do not act in such a fashion, because history has shown that doing so is not in the interest of the community...nor in the interest of the individual...in the long run.

Fuzzy

Freeman guru websites and Facebook pages are chuck full of news stories about over aggressive cops and corrupt government officials. Followers are asked if they have "had enough" as if they were the one's tased or even live in the town where the city manager embezzled $100,000 before he got caught.

Most of us realize that this ploy is nothing more than an alarmist freeman guru's re-ordering of reality to fit his egomanicial needs.

In reality freeman gurus are far worse than the worst corrupt government official or bad cop.

They regularly tell tall tales about their exploits, misrepresent the law and, as we see in the case of the subject of this thread, tell outright lies.

This is to say nothing of the harm they cause those foolish enough to actually act on their advice.

[Jeffrey]

Yeah criticism of Freeman Gurus shouldn't be interpreted as support of the status quo. That's a false dichotomy they try to push. Of course there are problems in Canada and the rest of the world. Down here in the states we got 13% real unemployment rate, of course it's unfair that people lost their jobs and houses after the '08 financial crisis. Hell, maybe marijuana production should be legalized so people who grow pot like Dean aren't jailed and less burden is placed on the legal system.

The point is, the gurus don't add anything of substance to the discussion. It can't even be legitimately viewed as a political movement when it just boils down to them wanting stuff for free and picking and choosing which laws they like.

If Dean or Menard wants to try to convince 51% of Canada that people should be able to drive without a license; that would be incredible to watch. I'm sure the families of the 33,000 people who died last year in the US while driving would love that debate. My drivers license has a little code on it saying I can't drive unless I'm wearing my glasses or contact lenses at the time. Is that a violation of my "right to travel"?

[Bill Lumbergh]

No idea. Could someone summarize that particular piece of drama? It was like 8 hours long and even I couldn't sit through that.

I couldn't sit through it either, so this may not be accurate. I stand to be corrected by anyone who knows the details. I believe Tony pitched this idea of starting an education program called "F.U.". There would be multiple tiers depending on how much the participant was willing to pay and the level of "education" desired. This would involve the participation of multiple gurus. I think if a special membership was purchased and the member signed up 10 people, he would then get a cut of the profits. I'm not clear on what went wrong, but I'm willing to bet there was some sort of disagreement over money.

Anyways, the reason why I was after part 4 of that series was because that was going to be the episode in which Tony brought in some guests who had worked with Dean and now claimed that he was a fraud. Needless to say it would have been interesting.

Darren Clifford's legal status remains murky, we don't know if he beat his case or if that's another lie by the Clifford camp.

Didn't he get convicted of resisting arrest and acquitted of assault P.O.? I think Mowe posted the news clipping in the other thread.

[Jeffrey]

Nah it wasn't an education program. It was part of Dean's "divestment" strategy of living outside the system. I think the lack of details is probably due to it not getting past the planning stages but it was basically pyramid schemed where everyone got a cut of the profits. It fell out among other things because Dean wanted to add other people to the group while Tony wanted only Dean and him to have "voting shares". Honestly both Tony and Dean look bad in that mess.

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

More alternative media "reporting" on the Clifford situation:

• http://canadanewslibre.com/2014/03/13/d ... -clifford/

Lots of rhetoric. I think the only new thing in there is the "reporter", Marc Sylvain Boisvert, who is also the "Creator and Editor of CanadaNewsLibre", indicates Clifford has decided to use liens in response to his ongoing detention.

Fearn v Canada Customs, 2014 ABQB 114 (http://canlii.ca/t/g5bx8):

[211] A fourth category of action that represents contempt of court is the use of or threat to use property or financial registrations against a judge in response to judicial action. This most commonly takes the form of liens registered against a judge’s property: Meads, paras 175, 181, 482; Canada v Rudolf, 2010 BCSC 565 (CanLII), 2010 BCSC 565 at para 8. Other variations on this kind of attack include false Personal Property Registry and Uniform Commercial Code claims: Squamish Indian Band v Capilano Mobile Park, 2011 BCSC 470 (CanLII), 2011 BCSC 470 paras 66-68, affirmed 2012 BCCA 126 (CanLII), 2012 BCCA 126, 318 BCAC 239. In that case foisted unilateral agreements were the pseudolegal basis for the subsequent illegal registered claims. Again, any indication by a litigant that they will respond to court action by taking these steps is civil contempt of court.

Maybe not such a good idea.

Still no sign of that long promised Federal Court action, which has already had at least one hearing. I'm probably just misspelling Dean's name, or something.

SMS Möwe

[arayder]

More alternative media "reporting" on the Clifford situation:

• http://canadanewslibre.com/2014/03/13/d ... -clifford/

Lots of rhetoric. I think the only new thing in there is the "reporter", Marc Sylvain Boisvert, who is also the "Creator and Editor of CanadaNewsLibre", indicates Clifford has decided to use liens in response to his ongoing detention. . .

Maybe not such a good idea. . .

SMS Möwe

Leave it to Dean to dig the hole deeper. Like freemen who manage to make a burned out tail light or a speeding ticket into a week in the pokey, Dean seems determined to add the illegal intimidation of a judge to his list of charges.

Clifford is a walking disaster.

[Jeffrey]

The stuff about liens might not be new stuff, remember he had said in older tapes that he was placing or had placed liens on the cops that seized his trucks and arrested him in February and was looking into selling them to China or some other country. I don't think that article mentions anything new.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Another nugget for you lads. I thought I'd try one of the more recent web radio shows to see if there's any mention of the July incident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j0fwGnX ... RlqX449gC9

Just after the 20 min mark we get another account of the seatbelt traffic stop. It's essentially the same boastful story except that this time we learn that after he was given his next court date, Dean sent in paperwork to the court indicating that he would not be attending. I didn't listen much past that (only to about the half hour mark) so I'm not sure if it gets raised again in this 4.5 hour behemoth.

[Jeffrey]

Concerning Darren Clifford. In Deans 3rd jailhouse phonecall they both say Darren was acquitted yet in:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/crime ... story.html

And every other article about the event it clearly says he was found guilty and there's a reference to "other charges" that still haven't been dealt with.

I been meaning to make this proposal, any chance we can find someone in Manitoba in the area that'd be down for going down physically to get court documents so we can post scoops in here. I'd be down for Paypal'ing for the service.

[grixit]

craigslist => Manitoba => Help Wanted

Wanted: One sensible, literate person to observe and report on court sessions. Pay is $25 a day plus reimbursement for bus fare.

[arayder]

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/crime ... story.html

The article said, "The Crown recommended [Darren] Clifford be ordered to undergo counselling for “life management skills” as part of probation."

Maybe the province can get group rate for the double D's?

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

... I been meaning to make this proposal, any chance we can find someone in Manitoba in the area that'd be down for going down physically to get court documents so we can post scoops in here. I'd be down for Paypal'ing for the service.

I'd be game to contribute as well. I have an idea for how we might obtain a forward observer. Will report back.

SMS Möwe

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

Well, so much for that.

I thought one option would be to recruit a law student from the local University, so I tried posting on a public internet forum that specifically caters to those - an interesting collaborative project, so to speak.

My message explained the situation and invited potentially interested students to come to Quatloos and discuss working with us. That post has now been deleted, so I guess that's an answer.

I'm out of bright ideas.

SMS Möwe

[The Observer]

The stuff about liens might not be new stuff, remember he had said in older tapes that he was placing or had placed liens on the cops that seized his trucks and arrested him in February and was looking into selling them to China or some other country. I don't think that article mentions anything new.

We have seen the "sell liens to China" before as well here in the US with our infamous David Merrill Van Pelt (search the site for that name/variations and you will find far more than you need to keep you busy). David at one point filed UCC documents that claimed that his home state of Colorado owed him $20 million for imaginary torts. When pressed about how he was going to make those UCC "liens" materialize into something more substantial, David responded that he had tendered an offer to the Chinese government to buy the UCC documents and apparently went so far as to request to place a legal ad in some newspaper in China, publicizing his "lien". I know it will shock you to hear that the Chinese government never took David up on his offer.

I suspect that Dean and others of his kind have linked up with David or at least his web site in search of "remedies" for their situations.

[LordEd]

Seems Menard didn't like my post about advising against freeman association. He did, of course, omit mentioning the basis of my post which was the risk of some freeman follower having a different interpretation of "harm".

But I found the funny comment of the week in its replies:

Ryan Elson
I think criticism is healthy, and i think these people havent met you otherwise they would know more about your personality. I dont think i am a fan of clifford though. I like how you actually practice many of the things you preach; that is what sets you apart rob.

May I be the first to load up the laughter emoticons?

[arayder]

Seems Menard didn't like my post about advising against freeman association. He did, of course, omit mentioning the basis of my post which was the risk of some freeman follower having a different interpretation of "harm".

But I found the funny comment of the week in its replies:

Ryan Elson
I think criticism is healthy, and i think these people havent met you otherwise they would know more about your personality. I dont think i am a fan of clifford though. I like how you actually practice many of the things you preach; that is what sets you apart rob.

May I be the first to load up the laughter emoticons?

We see also that Bobby has passed up a chance to engage Möwe (and others here) in a discussion instead insisting that Möwe agree in advance to adhere to the as yet unstated Menardian standard of discussion.

It seems to have escaped the manipulative Menard that the membership agreement here is more than sufficient to address his concerns. Of course Menard's banning from the Randi Forum prompted by his public release of his password (with the invite to trash the forum) portents that Menard would eventually break the agreement here and, as the freemen say, go into dishonor.

So, Bobby, if it's all about contracts, what's the matter with the Qualtoos membership agreement?

I propose you sign up here and simply follow the rules of the forum!

Consider that a counter offer, Menard! Let's see if you respond!

The clock is ticking, Bobby.

[notorial dissent]

We see also that Bobby has passed up a chance to engage Möwe (and others here) in a discussion instead insisting that Möwe agree in advance to adhere to the as yet unstated Menardian standard of discussion.

I would assume that means not saying anything that contradicts the holey writ of Bobby, and agreeing slavishly with everything he says, no matter how ridiculous, and not providing proof of his failures and fallacies?

[arayder]

We see also that Bobby has passed up a chance to engage Möwe (and others here) in a discussion instead insisting that Möwe agree in advance to adhere to the as yet unstated Menardian standard of discussion.

I would assume that means not saying anything that contradicts the holey writ of Bobby, and agreeing slavishly with everything he says, no matter how ridiculous, and not providing proof of his failures and fallacies?

The offer is still open to Menard. Is it possible he is too busy building his golf cart thing?

------------
Cop Out Clock Update: It has been 1 day since Robert Menard received a counter offer to join the discussion on the Qualtoos Forum. So far there is no word whether Mr. Menard has accepted the offer.

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

I have some interesting news. A Quatloos reader and supporter has been tracking our attempts to follow the Clifford action and obtain documents from that.

After my 'recruit a law student' fiasco this [person] has thoughtfully gone to the Manitoba Courts and obtained copies of documents from the Provincial Court and Queen's Bench files. This kind [person] has provided me with scanned copies, which are linked below.

Our Friend asks for no compensation but merely thanks the Quatloosians for their ongoing efforts, analysis, and those occasional moments of levity.

I have reviewed the documents I received, compared them with the online records that are available, the leaked transcripts, and though I am not familiar with Manitoba court materials I see no reason to doubt the authenticity of these items. My commentary will generally be rather cursory - I thought it would be more useful to get these online than anything else.

First, this is the Provincial Court record to date:

• Provincial Court records: http://www.mediafire.com/view/u533g30an ... ifford.pdf

There are several sets of offences:

• July 19, 2013 - traffic and assaulting a police officer offences
  
  Aug. 21, 2013 - failure to appear in court
  
  Nov. 5, 2013 - firearms and producing marijuana offences
  
  Nov. 8, 2013 - breach of recognizance (bail release), not living at a Winnipeg address

One item that leapt out at me is that one of the firearms charges is that Dean was in possession of a prohibited handgun, which is a particularly serious offence. Many handguns can be legally owned in Canada as "restricted firearms", but in this case the gun is simply prohibited. Other firearms charges indicate that Dean was under a court order to not have any firearms at this time.

The remaining documents are from Dean's Queen's Bench action "CR13-01-32571 QUEEN vs CLIFFORD, DEAN CHRISTOPHER D." Those wishing to check on the authenticity of those items may review the online court record at this website (http://www.jus.gov.mb.ca/), just do a name search with "Dean Clifford". The online record indicates a total of 17 documents on file. We have received #1, 2, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, and 17. Many of the missing documents appear to be affidavits of service, orders to have Dean appear in court - housekeeping type things.

Documents #1 and #2 are from February 2013, and are a habeas corpus application to pop Dean out of remand:

• QB Document #1: http://www.mediafire.com/view/66y1b03fd ... ent_#1.pdf
  
  QB Document #2: http://www.mediafire.com/view/e5bm42a2e ... ent_#2.pdf

Curiously, they are not from Dean! Instead, the application was made by a "Martin Neal Sutton" of Toronto. I particularly like paragraph 3 of the Affidavit (Document #2) which reads:

3. THAT I have known Dean Christopher David Clifford for one year and have never known him to present the truth and all relevant facts.

I know it's a typo, but it made me chuckle. This habeas corpus application was struck off the list on Feb. 28, 2013 because Dean had already been released - it was irrelevant.

The remaining Queen's Bench documents are Dean's attempt to use that court to pop him out of Remand after his Nov. 2013 arrest in Hamilton. In other words, he's using these items to challenge the Provincial Court proceeding documented in the first linked item above.

Document #10 is a collection of faxes sent by Dean to the Court of Queen's Bench that were rejected:

• QB Document #10: http://www.mediafire.com/view/zir5c1so1 ... nt_#10.pdf

This is the infamous "they are ignoring my documents" package we have heard so much about. The cover letter indicates the rejection is because the court does not accept faxed documents. No mention is made of the demand for typewritten materials, and the sample forms appear to be provided to assist Dean in making his application.

I also must say that Dean's penmanship is excellent - wish I could write that legibly! Unfortunately some pages are difficult to read - no doubt this is a consequence of multiple faxes/reproduction/scanning. Some pages are upside down - no idea why.

Document #11 is Dean's early February 2014 Notice of Motion application for, well, lots of stuff. That led to the February 13, 2014 hearing and Dean's application being adjourned sine die (Document #13):

• QB Document #11: http://www.mediafire.com/view/26aa0q60z ... nt_#11.pdf
  
  QB Document #13: http://www.mediafire.com/view/skep0baw4 ... nt_#13.pdf

Documents #14 and 15 are Dean's next Notice of Motion and a supporting Affidavit, from late February 2014. This is the basis for the March 6, 2014 Queen's Bench hearing, where Justice Keyser ordered: "Motion struck off for MR. Clifford to re-file proper material." (Document #17).

• QB Document #14: http://www.mediafire.com/view/kdrrda0t2 ... nt_#14.pdf
  
  QB Document #15: http://www.mediafire.com/view/pbcldcwwg ... nt_#15.pdf
  
  QB Document #17: http://www.mediafire.com/view/6vescvx6y ... nt_#17.pdf

That's the last entry in the Queen's Bench file.

Lots of reading, folks! I'd just like to thank Our Friend for having taken the time and made the expenditures to obtain this material for us. Very much appreciated!

SMS Möwe

[Lambkin]

What a lovely present.