Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

[LaVidaRoja]

Perhaps if they try removing the cattle on a weekday when the weather is not so pleasant, fewer "defenders of freedom" will appear to abet an illegal operation.

[Demosthenes]

My predictions:

Now that the BLM has backed off, the weekend warriors will go home. Cliven will get even cockier and start filing retaliatory liens against everyone in government who pissed him off. A grand jury will be convened...

[grixit]

I'm afraid that at some point a ranger doing some routine patrol in the area will be accosted and there will be a serious incident. At that point, the Lord of the Open Range will find himself facing a very different group of feds from the BLM.

[ashlynne39]

Contrary to the words used by Geiger, this is not happening "at the Bundy ranch". This is happening on BLM land a considerable distance away.

There are already militia-types present with openly displayed serious armament. I am not optimistic that this will not get uglier.

Oddly enough, many other ranchers, neighbors and competitors with Bundy, are rooting for the BLM. While they've been following the rules, and paying for their grazing, Bundy has essentially been stealing his livestock's grass which improperly gazumps up his profit margin.

I think that is part of the confusion. Bundy and his spokesman do seem to be claiming BLM land as his, though I'm not sure in what context. They are claiming it is his by virtue of his grand and great grand fathers ranching it and him ranching it until the BLM forced him out. Or he's claiming it is a right to use the land in perpetuity by virtue of an agreement by his grand or great grandfather with Clark County which seems to be why he says he doesn't owe the feds money. I haven't gotten it straight.

Anyway, more and more militia and guns and anti-govt. folks gathering does not bode well. On the other hand, some articles are saying guns are being confiscated, which if they're legally being carried, I'm not cool with and I think is just going to cause more animosity and the likelihood of more tensions and trouble. I'm also not cool with the "free speech zones." I think they're a bad idea in general but especially with this crowd. To them it is just one more show of federal interference and bullying and a rallying cry for action.

[ashlynne39]

If most of what I've read from sources not Bundy, he is nothing but a two bit con man pretending to be a rancher, and apparently not a very good one at that.

Do you have any links? I've been trying to find articles on "the other side"of this and haven't seen anything like you're describing. I've seen a lot of pseudo sympathetic articles, for lack of a better phrase - not positive per second but more on the fence a bit.

I'm surprised that the feds are pulling back. Bundy will likely see this as a victory and as license to continue his activities which will encourage others as well. Seems like in the long run this whole showdown may have made things worse.

[Gregg]

If most of what I've read from sources not Bundy, he is nothing but a two bit con man pretending to be a rancher, and apparently not a very good one at that.

Do you have any links? I've been trying to find articles on "the other side"of this and haven't seen anything like you're describing. I've seen a lot of pseudo sympathetic articles, for lack of a better phrase - not positive per second but more on the fence a bit.

I'm surprised that the feds are pulling back. Bundy will likely see this as a victory and as license to continue his activities which will encourage others as well. Seems like in the long run this whole showdown may have made things worse.

I'm hoping the the next visitors he gets are Federal Marshals serving an arrest warrant for Criminal Contempt or Felony Stupid of some flavor. If you can get them without a standoff, a big if, they do tend to get more compliant in an 8x10 cage.
And why in the randy hell have they not seized his bank accounts etc...?

[The Observer]

And why in the randy hell have they not seized his bank accounts etc...?

What is the likelihood of Bundy having a million dollars in his bank account? The issue at this point is getting the cattle off the land and keeping them off it. The 134 cattle that BLM seized, if we conservatively estimate them being worth $1500 a head, would be worth about $200k, which sounds like a pretty good hit to Bundy's pocket book. And with the other 766 head of cattle still out there, it is clear why BLM went after the cows. Still, seizing livestock is not the easiest thing to do (collection specialists have a motto: never seize anything you have to feed) so I am sure BLM took their time on deciding this course of action.

In order to levy Bundy's accounts or assets, BLM would have had to ask the courts to give them a judgement against Bundy. I can't tell if the litigation that BLM pursued in court was only specifically for impounding the cattle, but that seems to be the case. I suspect BLM's lawyers wanted to play it safe and not appear to be looking for overkill against Bundy. They probably felt the judge would be more likely to give them the authority to take the cattle since this was the crux of the issue and would resolve the immediate problem of Bundy's squatting and debt.

But if BLM decided that collecting the $1 million in penalties wasn't worth the time and effort, I wonder if they thought about just getting permission to kill the cattle that are on BLM land? I supsect that if Bundy started losing 20-30 head of cattle a day, he might make a special effort to get the cows off those parcels.

[JamesVincent]

Tell you what, I've just about had it with all the paste-eating windowlickers out there who support this screwball. So far I've heard and/ or had arguments over everything from eminent domain being unconstitutional (have no clue what the hell that had to do with this situation), the government was only trying to take cattle to pay off Bundy's fines that they levied illegally, to the Nevada state government doesn't need that land anyway so why they doing this, to, my favorite, they're only imaginary lines, what gives the government the right to remove someone from there? That came from a poster on the 19-D page of all places. The best of the stupid is this: it is unconstitutional for the Federal government to own any land that does not have a military base on it. I have never seen such a large collection of stupid in my life, and that's saying something. I hope they do intend to pursue this to the very end cuz' they just let the stupid out in droves by horsing around with it.

[ArthurWankspittle]

I too am concerned that this could end up with Federal forces going back trying to enforce something and ending in a fatal standoff.
As to money in bank accounts, I would suspect this guy keeps his money under his mattress so there isn't anything to go after.
Tactically, killing his cattle is the best option. It could be done from relative safety by the authorities and would hit the guy in the pocket. Legally and ethically, I have doubts over the merits and technicalities.

[fortinbras]

The BLM people have backed off for the moment, a moment of apparent victory for the nitwits with the assault rifles.

However a number of Bundy's fellow ranchers are cranked because Bundy continues to prevent them from offering to pay to use this grazing land by simply stealing the grazing, thereby denying them a necessity and improving his own bottom line.

Bundy already owes in the millions for all the past years of unauthorized grazing. The BLM could get a judgment for the money and then a court order to sell the Bundy land to make good on the money judgment.

[Kestrel]

Bundy already owes in the millions for all the past years of unauthorized grazing. The BLM could get a judgment for the money and then a court order to sell the Bundy land to make good on the money judgment.

Sell the Bundy land? I thought the whole issue was that he didn't own the land.

[LPC]

The story has gone mainstream, and it was the second story on last night's (4/12) NBC Nightly News.

Like most mainstream reporting, it was more heat than light. Court orders, anger, guns, conflict. Although there was a mention of a "dispute going back 20 years," there was no mention of the Bundys (several were interviewed) being in violation of court orders for 20 years, or the money they owe for grazing fees they haven't paid.

They did mention Bundy's claim that he (and his family) had the right to graze on the land because his family had been there since the 1880s. That claim has produced at least one cartoon:

[LPC]

Bundy already owes in the millions for all the past years of unauthorized grazing. The BLM could get a judgment for the money and then a court order to sell the Bundy land to make good on the money judgment.

Sell the Bundy land? I thought the whole issue was that he didn't own the land.

I think that the Bundys own *some* land, just not enough land to support their cattle, which is why they've been grazing on federal land.

[ashlynne39]

Bundy already owes in the millions for all the past years of unauthorized grazing. The BLM could get a judgment for the money and then a court order to sell the Bundy land to make good on the money judgment.

Sell the Bundy land? I thought the whole issue was that he didn't own the land.

I think that the Bundys own *some* land, just not enough land to support their cattle, which is why they've been grazing on federal land.

Is it federal land or state land managed by the feds?

[wserra]

Is it federal land or state land managed by the feds?

From the order of Judge George from which I quoted above: "property owned by the United States and administered by the Secretary of the Interior, Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service".

[Judge Roy Bean]

...
I think that the Bundys own *some* land, just not enough land to support their cattle, which is why they've been grazing on federal land.

Since before WWII, ranchers who have an established base property have grazed cattle on nearby BLM land under 10 year leases, which if memory serves comes out to something like a dollar a cow per month.

Let's say Bundy has had a thousand cows on the parcel for four or five months during each season (you don't leave cattle to completely strip a parcel), let's just say it's $5,000 per season; how did it get to millions?

[The Observer]

...[H]ow did it get to millions?

There is the possibility that BLM also (a) assessed penalties for non-payment of the grazing fees and/or (b) charged interest on the unpaid fees and/or (c) assessed additional fees for the damage to the land. Given that Bundy apparently has been trespassing for 20-25 years, if any of the above have happened, the amount could increase exponentially.

Also to correct the impression that another poster created by stating that Bundy's fees have run into the "millions", the only report that I have seen is that the amount owed by Bundy is reportedly $1 million.

[Demosthenes]

Written by a local motel worker:

Just so everyone knows - my weekend was filled with death threats from your so called "innocent, peacemaking" bundy protestors and militia just because I work somewhere. Today I had the pleasure of being on lockdown and got to sit inside the building while 200 officers surrounded our parking lot including the FBI, a SWAT team, snipers, Clark county, etc. due to a death threat by militia wondering what's actually going to happen and when I'll get to go home. Did anyone know there was a pregnant girl in there? Bet ya didn't! I'm sorry but that's not so "peaceful" to me.

[Demosthenes]

The protesters have been focusing exclusively on the issue of the desert tortoise conservation efforts (the tortoise is an endangered species.) But actually, much of the land in question is sacred Paiute territory, and the Nevada government was attempting to preserve the petroglyphs, culturally important plant life, and such.

[LPC]

The other meme I keep reading is that the Bundys don't want violence.

Well, of course they don't want violence; almost nobody *wants* violence. For example, bank robbers don't *want* violence, they just want to be able to wave around their guns, intimidate everyone, and walk out with the bank's money.

Similarly, the Bundys don't *want* violence, they just want to wave around their guns, intimidate everyone, and keep grazing their cattle on land that doesn't belong to them.