Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

[gshevlin]

Harry Reid was being too simplistic by half. What he should have said is "Cliven Bundy is just a common criminal and a scofflaw undeserving of support. However, I am worried about some of his supporters". Labelling him a terrorist is incorrect, and elevates his defiance to a level of seriousness that it does not deserve.

[The Observer]

I did look at pictures of Lake Mead earlier today, and those pictures didn't look as awful as what I've seen for other regions. I still saw a lot of water in the current pictures. Yet if it's that bad Mother Nature may succeed in solving the Bundy problem where the BLM has failed.

I suspect that if Bundy had erected the watering systems on the BLM lands, it meant that he knew he could not rely on Lake Mead to be an adequate source for the cattle. For one thing, my guestimate is that the map area shows roughly a 40 x 20 mile area (and perhaps any more) that Bundy had his cattle grazing on. If the cattle were up at the northern range of this area, they probably would be too far away to get water. The watershed in the area probably is dry in the summer and autumn months, and it is probable that much of the shoreline does not allow easy access for cattle to the lakeside.

[The Observer]

That's right out of the old Posse Comitatus playbook. Somehow, someone found out some "legal authority" for the proposition that the local sheriff is the highest authority in government, and that all state/provincial and national governments have to answer to him/her.

I am not too impressed by the "sheriff-is-supreme" theory. After all, the Sheriff of Nottingham came off always looking like a weak idiot when running up against Robin Hood. So perhaps we should consider that Robin Hood is probably the ultimate sovrun citizen. Hopefully our sovruns out there will take up this new theory, put on their tights of Lincoln green, grab their yew bows and head to the nearest National Forest and set up shop.

[The Observer]

And this situation is encouraging local and state lawmakers to see if they can take ownership of federal lands.

[ashlynne39]

And this situation is encouraging local and state lawmakers to see if they can take ownership of federal lands.

I was just about to post a story on this. I'm sure the Bundy situation triggered this, which indicates some measure of support for him by these states. But the article also indicates a financial motive both in natural resources that would become available to the states and an inability of the federal government to properly manage the lands due to budget constraints and overwhelming debt. Frankly, I can't argue with either idea and believe the states should be managing their own land.

[LPC]

Who would have expected a crackpot deadbeat rancher to arouse such interest?

They planned to remove the cattle in 1998, but didn't want to spark another Ruby Ridge situation. In his 1998 deposition, Bundy told them he'd protect the cattle by any means necessary.

They planned to remove the cattle in 2012, but Bundy found out who the hired cowboys were and threatened them.

Judging from the BLM's 82-page plan for April's raid, they knew they were going to have problems with violence.

I've reconsidered this, and you (and Obs) are probably right. If you have to plan tactically, you're also going to need to plan politically.

[Demosthenes]

Harry Reid was being too simplistic by half. What he should have said is "Cliven Bundy is just a common criminal and a scofflaw undeserving of support. However, I am worried about some of his supporters". Labelling him a terrorist is incorrect, and elevates his defiance to a level of seriousness that it does not deserve.

Some of the threats from supporters were pretty bad. They posted photos of BLM employees' houses, they had snipers on the hillside ready to kill BLM employees, they threatened some local business employees who dared to provide services to BLM employees. Some of the worst threats were made against Sheriff Gillespie, ranging from common law arrest and jury to simply murdering him as punishment. The "bring your guns, your ammo, and be prepared to kill" videos that at least one militia was putting out were pretty damned nasty.

[Demosthenes]

If you have to plan tactically, you're also going to need to plan politically.

I completely agree.

[Judge Roy Bean]

...
I've reconsidered this, and you (and Obs) are probably right. If you have to plan tactically, you're also going to need to plan politically.

And if you're an outsider, you might also want to involve someone with first-hand knowledge of the lay of the land during the planning.

[grixit]

That's right out of the old Posse Comitatus playbook. Somehow, someone found out some "legal authority" for the proposition that the local sheriff is the highest authority in government, and that all state/provincial and national governments have to answer to him/her.

I am not too impressed by the "sheriff-is-supreme" theory. After all, the Sheriff of Nottingham came off always looking like a weak idiot when running up against Robin Hood. So perhaps we should consider that Robin Hood is probably the ultimate sovrun citizen. Hopefully our sovruns out there will take up this new theory, put on their tights of Lincoln green, grab their yew bows and head to the nearest National Forest and set up shop.

And they'll come running out of there screaming for the rangers the first time they find themselves face to face with a pot farmer or meth cooker that's already there.

[fortinbras]

In the Romneyesque terms of the last election, Bundy is a taker, not a maker.

[Demosthenes]

http://www.libertyunderfire.org/2014/04 ... wn-nevada/

It's stunning how many errors one guy can cram into one article.

Dr. Harold Pease is an expert on the United States Constitution. He has dedicated his career to studying the writings of the Founding Fathers and applying that knowledge to current events. He has taught history and political science from this perspective for over 25 years at Taft College.

His resume also claims he is a "former advisor to the Constitutional Subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee."

[Number Six]

I'm just glad that I don't get MSNBC or FOX anymore, what a circus. I saw one sympathizer in his business last week working himself into a frenzy for the usual stereotyped reasons.

The Feds usually get their man or woman, Lew Rockwell had this today on the likely scenario coming:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/dav ... he-bundys/

[Pottapaug1938]

http://www.libertyunderfire.org/2014/04 ... wn-nevada/

It's stunning how many errors one guy can cram into one article.

Dr. Harold Pease is an expert on the United States Constitution. He has dedicated his career to studying the writings of the Founding Fathers and applying that knowledge to current events. He has taught history and political science from this perspective for over 25 years at Taft College.

His resume also claims he is a "former advisor to the Constitutional Subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee."

Taft College? Didn't Oily get her (ahem) law degree from their law school? That tells me all I need to know about this guy.

[LaVidaRoja]

Different institutions. Taft College is a 2-year (junior) college in a former oil patch in the southern part of the central valley. (Bakersfield is the nearest "big city" to give you an idea)

Oily went (I think) to William Howard Taft School of Law -- one of the few (or perhaps the only) law schools that was primarily correspondence.

[AndyK]

The Republic for the United States of America has found a CAUSE:

Cowboy Up and Support the Bundy Ranch
Bunkerville, Nevada
by: President James Buchanan Geiger

Date: April 21, 2014
Secured ID PR364424116RUSA

From time to time true American heroes will rise up from the depths of ordinary life and become an icon for freedom and justice. Like our founding fathers, these courageous men and women recognize the abuses of an over reaching and oppressive government. They stand up to protect their God-given and constitutionally protected rights without regard to consequence. Suddenly, they are thrust into the spotlight and the people of this nation are drawn to them as a beacon of hope.

Mr. Cliven Bundy of Bunkerville, Nevada is one such hero. He and his family have fearlessly stood their ground against the BLM and the federal corporate government. They have been assaulted and threatened by heavily armed agents, their property has been destroyed and their rights have been violated. But this has only emboldened their resolve to face tyranny head on.

On behalf of the Republic for the United States of America, It is my great honor to support the Bundy Family. Mr. Bundy is the epitome of what America is supposed to be. ** I encourage the American People to stand with the Bundy family. When the People stand together we can accomplish great things.

May God keep and protect the Bundy family, the Ranchers, the Protestors, and the Volunteers from all groups and organizations at the Ranch. And may God guide the conscience of the corporate officers and agents.

Cowboy Up! - Cliven Bundy

** America is supposed to be people who refuse to pay their debts, trespass on land which is not theirs, and threaten others with lethal force for interfering I must have missed that memo.

[Paths of the Sea]

I thought this story was helpful in revealing some of the practical details regarding the folks coming out to help Bundy.

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/20 ... itia-eyes/

Sincerely,
Maury Enthusiast!

[LPC]

http://www.libertyunderfire.org/2014/04 ... wn-nevada/

It's stunning how many errors one guy can cram into one article.

Yep.

One major problem is that he doesn't seem to be able to distinguish between ownership of land and governmental sovereignty over the same land.

He is also under the delusion that the federal government "confiscated" land from Nevada (and other western states) that Nevada (and the other states) never owned. (A neat trick.)

[fortinbras]

The Daily Show, starring Jon Stewart, skewered the Bundy case on its April 21st show:

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/v4jh6e/apocalypse-cow

(Note: this video evidently can only be viewed inside the US. A Canadian friend was told she'd have to give up her free health care to see it.)

[Demosthenes]

http://www.libertyunderfire.org/2014/04 ... wn-nevada/

It's stunning how many errors one guy can cram into one article.

Yep.

One major problem is that he doesn't seem to be able to distinguish between ownership of land and governmental sovereignty over the same land.

He is also under the delusion that the federal government "confiscated" land from Nevada (and other western states) that Nevada (and the other states) never owned. (A neat trick.)

He's also relying on the Enclave Clause of the Constitution while ignoring the Property Clause, which is the same flawed analysis that Bundy is making.