Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

[The Observer]

I take it back.

I figured that, like most idiots, his racism was fairly indiscriminate, and that he doesn't have much use for anyone who's not white and not like him.

But it turns out he's rather respectful towards Hispanics, even ones who are here illegally.

Who'd a thunk it?

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. My cynical side says that this was merely an attempt by Bundy to restyle himself as something other than the bigot he portrayed himself to be. His comments on illegal immigrants were still based on stereotypical observations and I suspect he only views them in a "favorable light" since they represent a source of cheap labor, the kind of thing that appeals to Bundy, given his approach to get getting things free or as cheap as possible.

[The Observer]

On the other hand, this article claims that Bundy was quoted out of context regarding his observations on African-Americans. You can be the judge of whether this changes anything in regards to Bundy being a bigot.

[grixit]

I wonder if he knows that most recipients of federal aid are european, not negro. That would include him, helping himself to what is effectively a subsidy.

[The Observer]

I wonder if he knows that most recipients of federal aid are european, not negro. That would include him, helping himself to what is effectively a subsidy.

I think the problem would be convincing him that he is effectively getting a subsidy by squatting. Whether he is under the misimpression by sense of entitlement that this is his family's land or at least his family's right to use the BLM land or not is not clear to me. He may be just falling back on that position to rationalize his skinflint ways. Either way, it would be a tough fight to get him to recognize that he is a welfare case.

[Jeffrey]

On the other hand, this article claims that Bundy was quoted out of context regarding his observations on African-Americans. You can be the judge of whether this changes anything in regards to Bundy being a bigot.

Looks like that guy didn't get today's talking points. The last 24 hours of browsing alternative media, white supremacist forums and the type of places that are friendly to Bundy, happened this way. The quote came out, they denied he said it, the video came out, they argued it was out of context, the full thing came out, Bundy goes on Alex Jones and related places to double down on the "black people were better off under slavery" rhetoric, the moderates recognize that the cause is dead now due to Bundy's comments as politicians and media start turning against Bundy.

Now there are the expected comments about Bundy being a "false flag" or a "plant" to make conservatives and libertarians look bad.

This is over, Bundy shot himself in the foot. POSSIBLY, he could have used the positive media attention from Fox news etc to maybe renegotiate things with BLM as a best case scenario, but now BLM can do whatever they want to do to him and the only outrage will come from a handful of tinfoilers online.

[ashlynne39]

On the other hand, this article claims that Bundy was quoted out of context regarding his observations on African-Americans. You can be the judge of whether this changes anything in regards to Bundy being a bigot.

Looks like that guy didn't get today's talking points. The last 24 hours of browsing alternative media, white supremacist forums and the type of places that are friendly to Bundy, happened this way. The quote came out, they denied he said it, the video came out, they argued it was out of context, the full thing came out, Bundy goes on Alex Jones and related places to double down on the "black people were better off under slavery" rhetoric, the moderates recognize that the cause is dead now due to Bundy's comments as politicians and media start turning against Bundy.

Now there are the expected comments about Bundy being a "false flag" or a "plant" to make conservatives and libertarians look bad.

This is over, Bundy shot himself in the foot. POSSIBLY, he could have used the positive media attention from Fox news etc to maybe renegotiate things with BLM as a best case scenario, but now BLM can do whatever they want to do to him and the only outrage will come from a handful of tinfoilers online.

Is it over? It sounds like the BLM is about to get into it with some North Texas landowners who apparently actually have a deed to the property the BLM is looking at coming after. Both Governor Perry and attorney General Greg Abbott have told the BLM to stay out of Texas. Living in North Texas myself, I'm interested to see what if anything happens here and if the militia's next stop will be right in my backyard.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/Bureau-of-Lan ... id/567370/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04 ... d-dispute/

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... -will-fig/

[The Observer]

Looks like that guy didn't get today's talking points.

The talking points change on an hourly basis - and they get stranger by the moment . As an example, here we have a African-American stating his belief that Bundy is not a racist.

As long as we are getting this kind of response, I will not assume that this is over by a long shot. As Bill Clinton sagely pointed out, all politics are local.

[LPC]

Am I the only one who sees parallels between Ed Brown and Cliveden Bundy, and possible parallels about future outcomes?

Ed Brown was convicted of some financial reporting crimes, but jumps bail and engages in an armed standoff with the U.S. Marshals, seems to be successful in keeping them at bay, but after a long (and relatively quiet) standoff, is grabbed by Marshals and carted off to prison for much more serious crimes.

Bundy has a civil dispute with the BLM that he seems intent on converting to more serious civil liabilities or even criminal liabilities. Like Brown, he's successfully gotten the government to stand down, but there could be a long quiet standoff, and then sudden action by the US resulting in criminal prosecution of Bundy or seizures of his property.

It will be interesting to see if Bundy is able to self-destruct as thoroughly as Brown was.

[The Observer]

Am I the only one who sees parallels between Ed Brown and Cliveden Bundy, and possible parallels about future outcomes?

No, I have had similar thoughts about how these two individuals seem to be heading down the same path. I am not sure if BLM is going to push to get criminal charges pressed against Bundy, but that is the only difference between the Brown case and the Bundy one - unless Bundy decides it would be a wonderful idea to start boobytrapping the BLM parcels.

And I have thought BLM could benefit much if they reviewed all of the circumstances involving Ed Brown to avoid any further mistakes on their part.

[grixit]

But will the Bundy case have a Dogwalk?

[The Observer]

But will the Bundy case have a Dogwalk?

Shouldn't it be Cowwalker? Or Cowherder?

[Kestrel]

I was thinking something slightly different:

Bundy has a bad case of Hoof 'n Mouth disease. Open mouth, insert hoof. Repeat for emphasis.

[fortinbras]

Unfortunately, Bundy appears to be stuck on stupid:

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/04/2 ... in-droves/

[Demosthenes]

Am I the only one who sees parallels between Ed Brown and Cliveden Bundy, and possible parallels about future outcomes?

Ed Brown was convicted of some financial reporting crimes, but jumps bail and engages in an armed standoff with the U.S. Marshals, seems to be successful in keeping them at bay, but after a long (and relatively quiet) standoff, is grabbed by Marshals and carted off to prison for much more serious crimes.

Bundy has a civil dispute with the BLM that he seems intent on converting to more serious civil liabilities or even criminal liabilities. Like Brown, he's successfully gotten the government to stand down, but there could be a long quiet standoff, and then sudden action by the US resulting in criminal prosecution of Bundy or seizures of his property.

It will be interesting to see if Bundy is able to self-destruct as thoroughly as Brown was.

I agree 100%.

[AndyK]

Although there are philosophical parallels, there also are significant differences.

Please pardon if some of the details are incorrect. Memory is the first thing that goes.

E&E walked out of a trial end were convicted in absentia. And Elaine cut off an electronic monitoring bracelet.
Cliven is -- so far -- only playing games with civil matters.

E&E retreated to a self-sufficient fortress and surrounded themselves with booby traps and assorted other explosive devices.
To date, Cliven has only talked the talk

E&E had federal arrest warrants open.
Cliven -- so far -- nothing along that line; unless there are some warrants which haven't come up yet.

Should the conditions change to the extent that Bundy ups the ante to a criminal level ... Who knows.

Finally, BLM is not a major law enforcement agency. THey have no great experience with facing down .50 sniper rifles and seem to be going WAY out of their way to avoid another Waco-style standoff.

However, Cliven shows absolutely no sign of backing down.

Only time will tell.

[Number Six]

There are huge qualitative differences between Ed Brown and Bundy. Mainly the openness and backing of all the loonies in the West who see him as representing a watershed moment or opportunity to join their fellow space cadets fighting encroaching corrupt government maybe even Obamarxcare. Who cares? With his stupid racist bs no one with an IQ over 100 will support this losing cause. Three weeks, indictment. http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/davi ... he-bundys/ Two months, history and another hot item for the media.

[rogfulton]

The CBC had an item about Bundy this morning. I am not able to play it at work and I don't remember the name of the man that was interviewed, but here is the link.

[JamesVincent]

Excuse me if I'm wrong but weren't Ed and Elaine tax protestors and Bundy is a freeloader protestor?

[AndyK]

E&E were not 'protestors'.

They were evaders. Ed decided (and convinced Elaine) that he was outside the tax laws (federal, state, and local) and just stopped paying.

[The Observer]

E&E were not 'protestors'.

They were evaders. Ed decided (and convinced Elaine) that he was outside the tax laws (federal, state, and local) and just stopped paying.

But they were protestors, since they took on the mantle of the tax protestor/sovrun movement. This wasn't simply a case of Ed and Elaine quietly evading paying their taxes like your run-of-the mill evader. The latter pretty much keeps his yap shut, while moving money off shore, setting up phony trusts, or just not paying the money over. If he is caught, he usally pleads out, listens to his lawyer, and if he decides to appeal his conviction and/or sentence, actually at least argues on some reasonable basis in the law. Ed pretty much did the opposite and spouted gibberish every step of the way.

If you decided to draw a Venn diagram, yes Ed would fit into the major category of an evader, but he would definitely be sitting in a smaller circle/subset known as "tax defier."