ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[Boardwalk John]

There is a misconception that investors have access to serial numbers for the ATMs they supposedly own. They don't have any such specific information. Investors are provided location information but do not have Placement Agreements or access to transaction reports, or which company processes the ATM. Investors in NASI receive their monthly checks on time along with a report of the monthly number of transactions and the overage / under of transactions verses the bogey of a 20% return. In my initial years as an investor this bogey was often below the guaranteed 20% return but in the last year or more the reported transactions (at $.50 per) cumulatively exceeded the 20% return. NASI always paid the contractual overage on transactions that exceeded the guaranteed 20%. NASI invariably timed monthly distribution checks to investors so that they were received by the 2nd or 1st of the month. In my experience the consistent delivery of the monthly check was amazingly quick- which, ironically led to my concern that the payment was not linked to actual transactions from ATMs placed in remote locations around the country.

[JamesVincent]

I believe SomeYuppie and possibly BeverlyHills wannabe said they received an actual transaction report. SomeYuppie stated it was from the processing company. Is this not the case? Also several others said they went to the location of "their" machine and verified it. Did they do this without knowing which actual machine they had "bought"? How can not knowing the physical location and correct serial number NOT be a huge red flag, especially when you DO try to verify what's what.

[Boardwalk John]

I do not know about others. The investors I know were given the name of the gas station / convenience store or hotel where their ATM was located. We were not provided an original activity report from the vendor supposedly servicing the ATMs. Rather we were provided an NASI created list of the monthly transactions for the ATMs we were told we owned. If the monthly transactions (at $.50 per) exceeded an annualized 20% return we were paid the overage. If the returns (again at $.50 per) were less than a 20% annualized return we were paid at the quarantined 20% rate. My checks always arrived at or before the 3rd of the month

[worried]

Wow...

But, SomeYuppie argued so strongly against the idea of different prices being charged for 'ATMs' which in my mind makes him/her NOT a conspirator (the claim would be alarming some of the very people he/she is seeking to reassure) but simply another willingly self-fooled victim. But, SomeYuppie claimed to have detailed information... maybe the reason we never heard back from SomeYuppie was because he/she went to look at their latest transaction report and had one of those uh-oh moments....

This shows the power of the human ability to believe. I'm not criticizing, I've said it before, it's what makes us human and life would be pretty boring without it. But, there's a reason why it's a crime to take advantage of that ability in such a heinous manner.

Thanks for that insight Boardwalk John... we needed it...

[worried]

I believe SomeYuppie and possibly BeverlyHills wannabe said they received an actual transaction report. SomeYuppie stated it was from the processing company. Is this not the case? Also several others said they went to the location of "their" machine and verified it. Did they do this without knowing which actual machine they had "bought"? How can not knowing the physical location and correct serial number NOT be a huge red flag, especially when you DO try to verify what's what.

And this begs the question, once again, how in the world could you ever PROVE you own any particular ATM?...

The very second you send ANY money to Joel/Ed, you're a victim. It doesn't matter if you broke even 10 years ago and have been living off the continued income stream, you're a victim, and it's going to catch up with you and/or your heirs/beneficiaries... please contact a lawyer and the authorities...

[worried]

An actual law firm specializing in Ponzi victims:
[Deleted link to law firm - Too close to commercial advertising because content consists of 2/3 advertising. Only useful advice is to not talk to your allegedly-involved broker and to contact a securities fraud lawyer if you suspect you've been the victim of a Ponzi scheme.] ... ok, sorry... it didn't occur to me that this could be misconstrued... you're right, investors shoudl follow the advice of the other websites to talk to their own lawyers... I

If you're in the hole by over $100k, I imagine there are plenty of lawyers who would love to help you get some of that back (and get a cut of course) by helping to pressure the authorities into action. If the federal level SEC/FBI and state level authorities all start getting multiple hits for the same issue and the total dollar amount is getting big, they are more likely to act I would think...

General advice for Ponzi victims from bankrate.com
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/persona ... eme-1.aspx

Current, relevant, and cautionary from forbes.com ... clawbacks are REAL, people! Your associates, heirs, beneficiaries, etc. will not be immune...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanmagli ... clawbacks/

[webhick]

Wow. Just wow.

I've been a bookkeeper for more than a decade and I've never seen someone fork over $12k+ for an asset and not get identity specific details on said asset. Hell, even the bill of sale my brother-in-law forged had the VIN on it. And he's an idiot.

Not that I'm calling the victims idiots. I'm not. I'm calling Joel an idiot.

My brain is so sad right now.

[webhick]

In lieu of what John has said, I ask that any investors interested in getting to the bottom of this PM the locations of their ATMs to me.

I'll cross-reference that instead.

[worried]

There is a misconception that investors have access to serial numbers for the ATMs they supposedly own. They don't have any such specific information. ... NASI invariably timed monthly distribution checks to investors so that they were received by the 2nd or 1st of the month...

This is in stark contrast to a posting by MarvinGardens which was a transcription of a NASI promo which states explicitly that investors are given serial numbers and receive transaction reports directly from the processor... ALSO... SomeYuppie, a more vocal investor/proponent of NASI also stated explicitly that (s)he received monthly statements with such info, and in one post promised to provide at least the name of the processor once (s)he got the next month's report (doesn't (s)he save prior reports?). This was in January 2014. The last we heard from SomeYuppie was on Jan 31 2014.... hmmm....

I think this gives some insight into how easily people fool themselves into believing the sales pitch. SomeYuppie (and a bunch of other investors I'm sure) just had(have) it set in their minds that they really are getting detailed information that PROVES the scheme is legitimate and NOT a scam and literally ignore the evidence on a daily/monthly basis... Until, I think, SomeYuppie went to make good on his/her promise and looked at February's statement and... well, I think we can all imagine that feeling...

SomeYuppie also stated something in a post about investors always being the beneficiaries of an insurance policy in case NAS goes bankrupt for whatever reason.... I pointed this out before (because I DO have a copy of a NAS contract (which really does seem pathetic even to my non-business-trained eye)): the contract clearly states that the 'insurance policy' ONLY PAYS TO NASI... that should be a very important fact that all investors should be aware of... but like everything else they blind themselves to that fact.

Another puzzler, even BeverlyHillsMan (who posted a long advertisement for NAS that included some stinging remarks about those who dare to question) also refuted strongly the possibility that different prices could have been charged for ATMs... he was caught lying about where he was posting from, and I don't for a second believe his stories about how rich he is (but won't get advice from a financial advisor who YOU KNOW would tell him NASI is a scam). But I guess I can't accuse BHM of KNOWINGLY conning people because it's clear that a con-man wouldn't want to alarm those that he has already charged those higher prices to by claiming that it doesn't happen... and it's clear that a 3rd party can't skim off the top by charging higher sales prices because that 20% return is pegged to that sales price, but he ignores that (or doesn't even think about it because he's nowhere near the financial genius he's pretending to be).... so BHM is another willingly self-fooled victim...

These are all examples of how easy it is to get people to fool themselves... so easy... just go look at all the people on the internet who swear by the Fuel Doctor...

[JamesVincent]

Even if you don't have the serial number you could cross check the build dates on the machines, if at all possible. The whole premise is that they're buying brand new machines for their clients, if you have a 3 year old machine then you know that's not true. May also help to show deception.
Not sure how much that helps.

Are the processing reports a month behind? Do you get Octobers report at the beginning of December? That would explain why they receive them on the 1st.

[worried]

A good jerk into reality would be for all current (and would-be) investors to go look at a website like http://www.atmia.com and dive into all the complexities of the ATM business. The Windows7 update was apparently a big milestone that should have caused the replacement of many older ATMs simply because their computers weren't compatible with the new operating system. But, to further complicate an ATM owner/provider's decision-making process are the OTHER looming technological changes that will be forced upon them:

https://www.atmia.com/whitepapers/index ... tail&id=47

I downloaded this whitepaper and flipped through it. It's only a snapshot of issues, but it's the number of issues that is mind-boggling. Technically speaking, the forced migration to supporting different forms of electromagnetic ID embedded in ATM cards (some swiped, others not) will be costly, but nobody knows EXACTLY what those new requirements will be... BUT, vendors were forced into Win7 updates last month, so they had to possibly waste money buying a particular machine configuration that will just need to be swapped out again in a year or more.... add into the mix worries about taxes, licenses, regulations (somebody is always fighting to limit fees or add more taxes), disability access, the list goes on and on...

There's no way I'm believing two old guys in an office in Calabassas down the street from the Fuel Doctor headquarters are running all this AND,... AND!... doing it SO MUCH BETTER than all these other smart people... WITHOUT ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE IN THE ATM BUSINESS KNOWING ABOUT IT!....

I really think if even just one investor volunteered their info, you'd find most or all of 'their' ATMs to be phantoms. Yeah, there will be an ATM at a location (they're EVERYWHERE people!), but go get the info on it, look up the licensing and registration. If Joel isn't giving more than location information to investors, the machine can be new and Joel can just say he bought a new one. But the licensing and registration can't lie, right?

This scam has got to be stopped...

If you're a current or FORMER investor like Boardwalk John, you HAVE to want to bring all this to closure, you don't want a shadow hanging over your finances and family. You don't want to have the nagging worry about WHEN (not IF) the government comes and takes money back. It's better to get it over with as soon as possible. It's better to try and get the authorities to get in and seize assets while they can to MINIMIZE how much they'll want from YOU (if possible). ... Send whatever info you can to webhick by PM (personal message), he's volunteered to manage the collection and investigation of info in the hopes of getting actionable evidence. I kind of doubt when Joel and Ed started this gig in 1996 that they could envision then this kind of social media where people like yourselves could get together and do this, so I'm thinking they're vulnerable... maybe not... but it's worth the little bit of effort on your part...

[Judge Roy Bean]

A good jerk into reality would be for all current (and would-be) investors to go look at a website like http://www.atmia.com and dive into all the complexities of the ATM business. ...

This scam has got to be stopped...

This is deja vu all over again. Scams work because there are enough people who will overlook legitimate information sources to find reasons that center on wanting to believe in a solution to their problem. Often, the solution is apparently unavailable to the ordinary person and therefore, by adopting it (and paying for it), you have some kind of secret advantage and are part of an elite group who have advanced beyond the common, and thus ignorant, masses.

Feeding the ego of the buyer is a ploy as old as human trade.

[worried]

doing nothing and 'hoping for the best' can sometimes be the worst possible strategy

[scaredforparents]

Hi

I'm very glad to have found this forum. My parents mentioned getting into this business a few years ago and I assumed it was a scam, but kept my mouth shut because I did not have any info, other than what they told me. Recently they mentioned how it's been doing great for them and they just keep reinvesting the money to purchase more atms. My wife and I thought we should try this out. I asked them for the company info and began to search online.

Some big red flags started popping up.
First - they have no real online presence and this link nationwideautomatedsystems dot com is a dead end. Instead there is a weebly based website that looks like a forth grader posted it.

Second- There is some PR story about nationwide being the number 1 atm service providers according to a poll. In the story it mentions
"NAS boasts over 80 branches and 1,000 certified technicians on standby"
If they have 80 branches and 1000 technicians, where are they? Try searching on google for one. If you find a couple of branches, let me know. At the very least they should have a webpage that directs you to a service technican.

Third - It mentions in the purchase contract for an ATM.
"Lessor agrees not to interfere with the operation of the ATMs by NASI in any manner including but not limited to, contacting the locations where the ATMs is/are installed and/or any service providers under contract with NASI relatin to the operation of such ATMs."



There is no way I'm going to buy into this system, but now don't know how to get my parents out of it. There is no proof that this is a scam, but it sure smells like one. I'm thinking of sending them a link to this forum and the FBI story about an ATM ponzi scam that was broken up in 2009. I know if I just tell them to cash out, because this looks like a scam, it will fall on deaf ears.

[worried]

scaredforparents: check your personal messages (there is a button at the top of the screen)

[webhick]

scaredforparents,

Thanks for bringing up the webpage. I don't know why I didn't piss all over them before so here goes now. That weebly page is just an about page and two blog posts. The earliest blog post is from February of last year, suggesting the site started in early 2013.

The site states that the company has a Better Business Bureau A+ rating when it in fact has no rating. It also states that it is affiliated with ATMIA but I don't see them in the member directory. Yes, I realize that it says "affiliate" and not "member" but I'm going to be contacting them for confirmation...oh wait. Snap. I just did contact them. Maybe we'll hear back soon.

Additional links provided on this website are a wordpress blog which hasn't been used since 2013, a companypond "article" which says nothing new and what looks like a location portal with the worst possible font for a webpage this side of 1997. The only site with actual contact information is the companypond page. Would you invest with a company who can't be bothered to publish their address and phone number on every website they control?

"Lessor agrees not to interfere with the operation of the ATMs by NASI in any manner including but not limited to, contacting the locations where the ATMs is/are installed and/or any service providers under contract with NASI relatin to the operation of such ATMs."

Which is like saying, "I'm going to sell you some new tires and mount and balance them for you. No, you can't look down to see if I really gave you new tires. They're really sensitive and don't like to be looked at. Yeah, I guess they're related to the tire in Rubber. They'll totally explode your head if you look at them."

There is no way I'm going to buy into this system,

Thank god.

but now don't know how to get my parents out of it. There is no proof that this is a scam, but it sure smells like one. I'm thinking of sending them a link to this forum and the FBI story about an ATM ponzi scam that was broken up in 2009. I know if I just tell them to cash out, because this looks like a scam, it will fall on deaf ears.

It may fall on deaf ears anyway. I've read some articles recently that sometimes when someone believes something strongly enough any attempt made to convince them otherwise will only make them believe more - even when you have solid evidence. But I sincerely hope your mileage varies.

[worried]

I have sent personal messages to:

imnewhere

BeverlyHillsMan

chanman

SomeYuppie

If, by any chance, any of you above are still browsing this forum but not logging in to see that you have PM's waiting for you, well..., go ahead and log in and click the button at the top of the page for personal messages. The information I've sent you is very important, you're really going to want to see it.

[worried]

I periodically do a google on 'joel gillis nationwide'. I find it interesting how the results change over time. This seems to be an indicator of what people are finding on the net. Recently some new results have popped up on the second page:
http://www.advancedbackgroundchecks.com ... /155664682
There are some interesting rabbit holes to go down. Joel was the recipient of a 'cease and desist' from the State of Oklahoma some years ago related to his involvement with 'Prudential Petroleum Company, Inc'. I found more about this at:
http://brokercheck.finra.org/Individual/1309252
you have to 'get details', 'accept', and 'get detailed report' to see Joel's personal response that suggests he was only minimally involved in an oversight by a company he was employed by.
I found another site that says he is the sole owner of PPC. PPC was mass-mailing to sell land-use rights for oil, etc.... smells like a scam to me.

I have to wonder if Joel Gillis is an alias. Who would use their real name to be involved in what they KNOW to be a bunch of different scams of different flavors?

Somebody, I think it was BHM or SY, claimed that Joel isn't computer savvy, but apparently he is/was involved in some online day-trading 'education' scams as well (well, I haven't had time to go down all those rabbit holes to verify whether they're false hits or not, but...).

More generally, I'm encouraged to see these new results on google just because it means that more and more people are sniffing around. This produces a kind of crowd-sourced investigation as we all relatively haphazardly search stuff out... to that end, I encourage everybody to google away! None of this is iron-clad proof of anything of course, but, it just MAY help somebody who MIGHT be working this in an official capacity establish iron-clad proof of SOMETHING...

[Tednewsom]

"Your honor, just because my client, the defendant, has previously admitting enslaving strangers to work in his strawberry field, lifting the purses of old ladies in the mall, selling black market liquor to children, organizing sex vacations to the Appalachian Mountains for Congressional pages and wizened hillbilly millionaires, practicing unlicensed vasectomies with a chainsaw and has, as we have readily admitted here in this very court, received a minor misdemeanor conviction of Mopery with intent to Sloth... all this is irrelevant to the question at hand. Prior bad acts cannot be admitted into evidence, and anyway, my client says he's much better now, even if he did all those things he was accused of, which he didn't, or at least no one caught him and proved it, so that's that. God bless America, three cheers for the legal system, and I rest my case."

[JamesVincent]

I happened to scan past this thread looking for another thread and noticed that, as of this morning, this thread has had 88,328 views. That's a lot of people looking into this particular..... business. I don't know if that makes this the highest viewed thread on here but I know it is the highest viewed one that I have participated in. I realize a good many views will be us as commentators viewing other, newer posts or going back through to do more research but still. I am glad we have this coverage, it was obviously needed.