National Liberty Alliance - Citizen Grand Juries

[JamesVincent]

Sedition could be described as the planning of rebellion, inciting others to commit rebellion, or the rebellion itself whereas treason could be, not only active rebellion, any number of things that go against the government or collusion with the governments enemies. My understanding of the terms would say that, based on what we have seen, the NLA would be guilty of sedition as they are actively trying to incite rebellion. To actually make it to treason they would have to either take active steps to carry out the rebellion, including attacking a government facility or would have to actively be in collusion with the government's enemies. Might be stretching it but I think it would be possible to make the treason part stick by applying it against their using retired military to agree to take over military bases or by their involvement with sov'runs since sov'runs are classified as domestic terrorists. In Schenck v. United States 1919 the Supreme Court ruled that, in a time of war, there can a different standard applied to what can be construed as free speech, talking about the passage and implementation of the Espionage Act and the Sedition Act. Schenck was passing out leaflets to to try to persuade draftees and recruits from going into military service and was arrested for attempting to incite insubordination in the military. The Supreme Court affirmed. We are currently in a state of war and have been for quite a while so what may have been protected free speech can be construed as something else.

[Slim Cognito]

This may be my bad but I find myself secretly wishing to see a cavalry astride Rascals puttering towards the White House, four-point canes raised in battle.

[LPC]

I also can't help but remember that no-one was prosecuted for Treason even as a result of conduct during the civil war....and you have to think that if Jeff Davis didn't commit treason, our modern day idiots are, so far, just posers.

If I recall correctly, when Abraham Lincoln agreed to meet Confederate VP Alexander Stephens in early 1865, along with some other high Confederate dignitaries, Lincoln essentially told them that he considered their actions to be treasonous. The fact that no Confederates were prosecuted for treason was probably a political decision, made to try to reunite the country after a bloody civil war. The way I see it, the Confederates DID commit treason by levying war against the United States.

Lincoln promised a lot of things, but it was Andrew Johnson who granted general amnesty in Proclamation 179 in 1868.

To me, the Constitutional definition of treason as "levying War against" the United States means that there should be actual shooting (or other acts of violence or war). By that standard, Darash has not yet committed treason, although he may have committed other crimes by encouraging or conspiring to commit other acts against the government.

[notorial dissent]

I have to go with LPC here. I think that Darash et al are most likely/probably guilty of sedition, absolutely and undeniably guilty of ignorance, gross stupidity, and general wastage of air and space, unquestionably of counterfeit of legal process, and probably extortion, but treason, not just yet.

As a side note, just because Lincoln, as admittedly did a number of other people at the time,
considered what the southern leaders did treason, doesn't mean a court of the day would have. The perspective of the day was considerably different than the one existing today, and a court of the day may well have not agreed. I can't say that I have ever come across anything written on that perspective, since there were no treason trials from that period that I am aware of.

[Judge Roy Bean]

... but I also can't help but remember that no-one was prosecuted for Treason even as a result of conduct during the civil war....and you have to think that if Jeff Davis didn't commit treason, our modern day idiots are, so far, just posers.

Actually, there was one fellow hanged for taking down a US flag:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bruce_Mumford

But charges of treason and convictions are rare - most are associated in one way or another with wartime situations and involve significant publicity.

IMHO the NLA would have to partner up with one of the middle-east terrorists and do something to make the evening news to garner the attention of the Justice Department.

[Duke2Earl]

I do think we are forgetting that these people are at heart attention whores with huge persecution complexes. I think they would be absolutely thrilled to be charged with sedition or anything else. I think the thing that galls them the most is not the lack of success but rather the fact that mostly everyone ignores them. In their own minds they are the most important and significant people in the world but nobody recognizes it. They would think that a federal inditement was an enormous success because they had been noticed and recognized and given a public forum. I think folks like Larkin Rose and Pete Hendrickson were pleased to be tried and go to jail because it validates to them how much of a threat to the "system" they think they are. Of course, actual tax evasion must be punished but my feeling would be unless they step over the line from blustering to active action ( like proven tax evasion or Ed Brown making and planting bombs) ignore works good for me.

In fact, I have been thinking about this for the forum as a whole. Yes, it is important to keep track of the antics of the various wackos. But is it necessary to post about every time one of them breathes or puts out an email? Maybe it is, but please understand that you are feeding their egos. Know that they are in here reading all about themselves. Know that it pleases the hell out them how seemingly we are obsessed with their every move or thought. Know that it makes them feel important. Honestly, I don't think it is good to play their game.

[LaVidaRoja]

This forum and the matters discussed herein are not my life. They are an amusement, a diversion. I read this forum every day. I also read the comics in my local paper every day. Same reason. Mild amusement and an occasional insight into humanity.
I do hope the NLA et al realize that they fill the same niche as Bizzaro in my mind.

[LPC]

I think the thing that galls them the most is not the lack of success but rather the fact that mostly everyone ignores them.

There's some truth to that. And their rationaliztion for the lack of attention is that everyone (but them) is either ignorant of "the truth" or intimidated by the government (cowardly) or both (i.e., "ignorant sheeple").

Yes, it is important to keep track of the antics of the various wackos. But is it necessary to post about every time one of them breathes or puts out an email? Maybe it is, but please understand that you are feeding their egos.

I'm not sure about that.

Although we pay attention, and attention is good, most of the attention is in the form of ridicule or derision. And the reactions I see on losthorizons.com or marcstevens.net don't look like the reactions of people whose egos are being fed. Quite the opposite, I think. The reactions look more like the reactions of people who don't like being laughed at and dismissed.

[Pottapaug1938]

Although we pay attention, and attention is good, most of the attention is in the form of ridicule or derision. And the reactions I see on losthorizons.com or marcstevens.net don't look like the reactions of people whose egos are being fed. Quite the opposite, I think. The reactions look more like the reactions of people who don't like being laughed at and dismissed.

As far as Lost Horizons goes, it has clearly descended (even further, as if that's possible) into self-parody. The fact that our old friend Harvey is allowed to post under his version of my Quatloos handle without any objection from the moderators is prof enough of that.

[JamesVincent]

Although we pay attention, and attention is good, most of the attention is in the form of ridicule or derision. And the reactions I see on losthorizons.com or marcstevens.net don't look like the reactions of people whose egos are being fed. Quite the opposite, I think. The reactions look more like the reactions of people who don't like being laughed at and dismissed.

And, apparently, we're not the only ones who are ridiculing them judging by some of the threads and posts coming out of lost horizons and others. Seems they are busy ridiculing each other and generally being paranoid that everyone is Famspear.

[Famspear]

As far as Lost Horizons goes, it has clearly descended (even further, as if that's possible) into self-parody. The fact that our old friend Harvey is allowed to post under his version of my Quatloos handle without any objection from the moderators is prof enough of that.

I sort of lost track, but I believe Harvey "handles" at lost horizons have been, in order:

1. Nationwide
2. Libre
3. noah
4. patriot1
5. pottaupauq
6. homie

Items 1 through 4 were banned (patriot1 was banned about April 20 of this year, I think). Not sure about item 5.

Interestingly, only items 1 through 3 were identified by me as being sockpuppets of Harvester-Harvey-johnthetaxist-johnnycash, etc. I think that sockpuppets 4 through 6 were actually "outed" by posters at lost horizons.

I suspect that Blowhard Hendrickson has been just too busy with his family's personal problems (much of which he himself has caused) to try to keep track of banning every iteration of Harvester's sockpuppets -- or maybe he just doesn't care. The result has been the further demoralization of some of the remaining Crack-a-Doosters, who are tired of the antics, the paranoia, the false accusations, and the chronic off-topic wanderings.

Harvey's a sad character ("somebody pay attention to me, me, me, somebody talk with me, me, me"). His psychological projections are pretty obvious. He claims to believe that he is surrounded by the sockpuppets of Famspear, etc., in part because he realizes that he himself has surrounded his fellow Crackheads with sockpuppets of himself. But his antics are so obvious that not even his fellow Crackheads are fooled at this point.

[PatriotTrue7]

Spying for a foreign power or entity not during wartime is also treason, as well as during wartime.

What these people are hinting at, and what OAS was proudly announcing, is sedition.

On whether or not we should be giving these people attention, I think these kinds of schemes attract and embolden the more dangerous of the fringe of the fringe like the SovCits who DO represent a true, violent threat to others and to our law enforcement. When their legal quackery fails to produce results, their frustration leads to calls to arms (ie. Darash's mention of militias and militia armories as his hinted Plan B). For this reason, I think it's REALLY important to keep track of the goings on and characters involved.

I think the Millers who killed the Las Vegas cops were emboldened by Bundy in the same way.

[Slim Cognito]

I admit I find myself torn regarding my fascination with the birthers/OAS/CLGJ bunch. I think of it as a guilty pleasure, much like my former addiction to Desperate Housewives, only this is a soap opera/reality show combo. I know there are better things I should be doing with my time than following their antics but I also have learned a lot about our legal system, civics and US history because of it. No, I didn't learn directly from them, but their bizarre claims, which a middle school student would recognize as ridiculous, got me researching so I'd be prepared if/when I found myself in a position to discuss such matters with otherwise-minded acquaintances and family members. Also, as a recent retiree who misses the daily water cooler chats, I enjoy the camaraderie of forums such as this one found in my surfs across the intertubez.

[LightinDarkness]

Oh dear, Darash is very angry with people calling him and other NLA members delusional/conspiracy theorists/mentally ill. So now...wait for it...hes filed yet more gibberish papers commanding judges to acknowledge that sov'runs aren't mentally ill and that conspiracy theorists are correct.Darash's gibberish states that equating sov'runs with the mentally ill is a communist conspiracy called "psychiatry" ( ) that is seeking to silence freedom loving patriots. Again, not kidding, here is the document:
http://www.nationallibertyalliance.org/ ... -02-14.pdf


I wonder if anyone in NLA is smart enough to point out that this kind of nutty explanation ("the communist conspiracy of psychiatry") is exactly what we would expect crazy, delusional people to think?

My favorite part of this filing is how hilariously stupid Darash shows himself to be (as if we needed more proof). As we all know, much of the sov'run mythology was created by the posse comitous movement in the 1970s-1990s. Darash quotes the ADL as stating this historical fact, then goes on a tirade about how the posse comitous law has nothing to do with sov'runs. I don't think he honestly knows that the ADL was talking about the white supremest movement, and not the posse comitous law. He has no idea where his own mythology comes from.

[notorial dissent]

I wonder if anyone in NLA is smart enough to point out that this kind of nutty explanation ("the communist conspiracy of psychiatry") is exactly what we would expect crazy, delusional people to think?

I think that pretty well comes under the asked and answered in their own words category.

I think the term I might have used was delusional loons!!!! FWIW.

[fortinbras]

Once again, Darash is off on a tangent. The purpose - and apparently the sole purpose - of the grand jury in American law and in pre-Independence British law, was to indict suspects, specifying the person accused and providing some description of the criminal act, such as its time and place and a brief narrative of what he supposedly did, and relate it to a criminal law prohibiting what he did. The indictment is sometimes called a true bill. As far as I know, the grand jury can issue no document except an indictment.

Here Darash has his grand jury (did it really meet and vote on this?) issue something else, which the courts are sort of powerless to deal with, no matter how sympathetic or enthusiastic the judges might be about agreeing with Darash's assertions.

IF Darash's followers read this stuff he's sending the courts in their name, I expect even more of his supporters will desert him.

[LightinDarkness]

Its funny you mention the NLA people actually reading it, because it came up during the latest propaganda call. There was no vote on this latest gibberish, although to be honest when there are votes John has said "no" votes don't matter and anyone who doesn't object live on the call is signaling consent.

Some woman who had read the latest gibberish (and was the state coordinator for Virginia - but I can bet you she is no longer in that position!) called in and said that John was acting without the knowledge or consent of the rest of NLA. That resulted in a 15 minute long hysterical diatribe (he was screaming over her, literally) from John about how he has to act because America is collapsing and anyone who is negative about what NLA is doing is part of a conspiracy to bring it down. He even described how he is now personally trolling the NLA forums and chat and removing anyone he deems to be "too negative."

You think like John Darash does or you are OUT! I love it when these groups implode like this.

[notorial dissent]

Darash has no real idea of what a grand jury is or what it is supposed to do, and is just making it up out of whole cloth as he goes along. The sad, or more properly, scary thing is that his followers know even less about it than he does.

[LightinDarkness]

Darash: "It is our job to arm the people to win the war." He was not referring to war in a metaphorical sense, hes talking about his "elite team" of 50 people who are preparing militias and armories.

[PatriotTrue7]

Wow. That pleading is really something else. Nothing screams "I'm not crazy" like a document claiming a conspiracy that makes you look crazy.

I love how Obama is now ALSO responsible for the DSM-V. Not that it took over tens years of committee work and commenting periods to revise it. It's all Obama's fault.

Loved this spelling: silent desentors

I also found the argument that they are not terrorists especially convincing when he cites the murders of six police officers as their proof of non-violence. I had forgotten about the murder of one of my husband's co-workers in 2010 by a SovCit. (His office currently has a BOLO out on a SovCit who has made credible threats against law enforcement and is armed to the teeth and on the run.)

Also, that they have a right to file false liens. He calls them false liens. But they're still valid because he said so.

Why do they always cite the Declaration of Independence as law? It's not a law. It predates the Republic. Then again, they cite the Magna Carta of 1215, so....

Darash sounds like he's really gone round the bend. It won't be too much longer now before he tries to effect an arrest himself, and then he'll be the sovereign of an 8x6 barred room.