Stock and Bond Fraud, including Boiler Rooms / Pump and Dump Schemes, Mutual Fund & Hedge Fund Fraud, FOREX scams, plus Churning, Private Placements, Venture and Bridge Funding, IPOs, Viaticals Fraud, HYIP and Prime Bank scams, MTNs, Historical Notes, Recovery Schemes, etc. Includes the Jim Norman Project and the Michael Dotson Project and similar HYIP scams.
10 year investor wrote:Assuming 31,000 machines have been sold and assuming half those have been sold in the last 5 years which might be high, I estimate it will take $100 million for the newer investors to recoup their principal. Anyone longer than that already has. I'm still thinking the company is generating around $40 million a year in real revenue so it seems there's a shot the newer ones will get principal back assuming the receiver can keep it going for 2 plus years. That's the danger if contracts expire and the operation doesn't run well because the principals are gone. They still need Joel and Ed to help them do that and hopefully they will make sure it happens. Their continued cooperation is key and they're certainly motivated to minimize losses.
Continued operation is only key if income-generating ATMs exist in any meaningful quantity.
Totally agree on people paying back any profits if necessary with one caveat. People received 1099's and paid taxes on the income. Probably around 20-30%. It wouldn't be fair to make newer investors whole at the expense of those who would end up taking a hit because of taxes paid on the income because it's not really income now. If someone put in $1 mil and got back $1.2 mil but paid $200k in taxes, they shouldn't have to forfeit $200k to make others even as that would put them down $200k. I don't know the tax rules but I doubt you can go back 5 to 19 years and file amended returns.
I have a thought. What about the contracts with the Hotels and the Convenience stores, if they exist. Are they not a party to the fact that they were reaping rewards from an unsecured security.
snookered wrote:I have a thought. What about the contracts with the Hotels and the Convenience stores, if they exist. Are they not a party to the fact that they were reaping rewards from an unsecured security.
I would wager that those businesses hosting the ATMs on their properties are innocent parties as well. I am reasonably sure that NASI didn't tell them that these machines were part of a securities fraud racket and that they would give them a bigger percentage of the ATM fees if the hosts kept their mouths shut.
10 year investor wrote:Assuming 31,000 machines have been sold...
MarvinGardens already pointed out that the 31,000 number referred to contracts sold and that it doesn't mean that 31,000 machines were purchased. So your assumption is already running off the track. In fact, we have little information to make any assumptions as to what kind of money was being brought in except what Joel and Ed was telling people. And I am not going to accept their figures as anything to start making assumptions about.
I think it is pointless to speculate about this since it just starts getting people's hopes up that there must be oodles of money out there somewhere and that they will be made whole. Then as time goes by and all of that fictional money is not recovered, people become even more bitter and start blaming everyone else involved.
The time to start accepting the loss is now and learning how to deal with the ramifications of that loss. There will be plenty of time afterwards when the investigations are done to figure out how much money Ed and Joel went through.
"I could be dead wrong on this" - Irwin Schiff
"Do you realize I may even be delusional with respect to my income tax beliefs? " - Irwin Schiff
10 year investor wrote:If Ed is admitting anything, Joel is still saying it will all work out. What's interesting is that one of their accounts is not frozen. New checks that were issued to replace last months returned checks are still clearing and some replacement checks were written this week as well. That shocks me if the FBI is on it and a receiver has been appointed.
I suppose it's possible that when one bank account is frozen, you can walk into a different bank and open a new account, provided it's done quickly. That account wouldn't be frozen until the authorities found out about it and subsequently shut it down too. Not sure how long it would take to get an order to shut down the new account.
Once an account is identified, in an ongoing action that can be done same business day, a phone call is made, a fax sent and finally an "official" copy of the order of seizure is delivered to the bank. (some of the things you learn working for a Federal Reserve Bank)
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
10 year investor wrote:Clearly, MarvinGardens has a connection and it's not looking good. If true, these guys will go down as two of the best scammers ever. Pulled it off for 19 years. I spoke with a few investors today and everyone is very nervous. Some were new and some over 5 years. They all heard the same story from Joel. That the company owned 17,000 machines and the investors 8000. That over $10 million in revenue comes in each month. I know many investors and have never heard of anyone paying more than $12k for a machine and nobody was ever offered or took a commission. Could be a different group out of my circle did.
If Ed is admitting anything, Joel is still saying it will all work out. What's interesting is that one of their accounts is not frozen. New checks that were issued to replace last months returned checks are still clearing and some replacement checks were written this week as well. That shocks me if the FBI is on it and a receiver has been appointed.
I called on a few of my machines yesterday and the services confirmed NAS still owns them. NAS clearly owns thousands of machines. How many is the question. They would have had to pay out $8 million a month at this point and $5-$6 million per month in the last few years. Doing the math, they have paid out about $700 million and taken in about $400 million meaning there is revenue. That would mean the average revenue over the 19 years was about $15-20 million per year. I'm guessing the real revenue is around double that now or this would have collapsed earlier if they hadn't continued to buy some machines. I would imagine that each machine earns around $200/mo so they must own around 160000 machines and investors who put in the last 5 years would get there money back in 4-5 years if the receiver can keep it going that long. Everyone else will lose their principal unless they can keep it running. Anyone else please feel free to chime in with the numbers.
I would think their bank could get hit. It's a big account and they can see the difference between money coming in from people and revenue coming in versus what is going out.
There is enough out and out bullshit in that post to make me wonder whether you're part of the scam or just what Lenin called a "useful idiot". It's clever, I'll give you that, there is just a little bit of truth in it, in fact, just enough truth to make it look like you know how to get the truth/bullshit ratio just right to calm the mob down....
Just sayin'
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
Gregg-you have to be kidding I'm part of it. My dad will lose $50k in this and he's the only one I got in it because he can afford the loss. There's no amount of money in the world worth screwing him. I've seen several investors who are devastated as we all are. My heart really goes out to the new ones who can't afford the loss. My hope is they get made whole and I was doing some speculative math that shows they could. I don't believe NAS bought 30,000 ATM machines only that they raised money for that many. Mathematically, it seems the company does have about $40 million in real revenue and hopefully it's at least that. I was just running speculative numbers so relax or comprehend better.
Just a few thoughts from the perspective of someone who has been to a few of these shows before and how they often, in fact almost always, end.
If there was any legitimate business at all, it is a tiny part of what was claimed, and the longer a scam has run, the smaller that percentage is. Ponzi schemes grow exponentially, and therefore the liability to income ratio grows wider every day. When checks start bouncing, it's because there isn't any money left. Our previous poster clings to the "31,000" machines number, I'd be surprised if the actual number of machines is more than 10,000 and I wouldn't be at all surprised if its closer to 3,000. Just how these things go....
If a receiver is appointed, he's not going to attempt to run a business for years to attempt to make investors whole. If the business needs to be taken over by a government agency, its almost certainly insolvent and the receiver will try to, in as orderly a fashion as practicable, unwind and liquidate it. Operations, insomuch as there are any, will cease in short period and then will begin the very long and drawn out process of reconstructing just what happened and who made or lost how much. (oh, did anyone mention that these things almost never have complete records?)
Clawbacks, if sought, will be pursued from net winners and, well, if you paid taxes, they really don't care. If it is determined that you had any complicity (say, if you made commissions from bringing in new suckers) you still owe that tax (illegal income is still gross income and taxable after your other tax situations/deductions). Hint, if they say you need to pay them back, negotiate a deal early, they tend to take the low hanging fruit to clear out the inventory when they're just getting started, the longer you wait the worse your deal is going to be. In the last few cases I'm familiar with, the "threshold" amount they consider it worth going after is as low as $1000, so, if you're in profit, start planning for it now.
VERY IMPORTANT!!! If you're a net loser, resist any offers of people banding together to try to get more from the estate, or lawyers who say they can help you get your settlement sooner or get a larger amount. If a receiver is appointed, it'll take a long time (years) but in the end, when they dust settles, the net losers will all get paid at roughly the same time and at exactly the same recovery percentage, no lawyer or group is likely to get you more or get it sooner.
Okay, I'm tired, and I really have quite a bit more to say, but I'm going to ponder the matter a little bit more and see if shills start trying to cloud this up a bit. I just wanted to make a few quick points while I consider this a bit more.
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
I called on a few of my machines yesterday and the services confirmed NAS still owns them. NAS clearly owns thousands of machines. How many is the question. They would have had to pay out $8 million a month at this point and $5-$6 million per month in the last few years. Doing the math, they have paid out about $700 million and taken in about $400 million meaning there is revenue. That would mean the average revenue over the 19 years was about $15-20 million per year. I'm guessing the real revenue is around double that now or this would have collapsed earlier if they hadn't continued to buy some machines. I would imagine that each machine earns around $200/mo so they must own around 160000 machines and investors who put in the last 5 years would get there money back in 4-5 years if the receiver can keep it going that long. Everyone else will lose their principal unless they can keep it running. Anyone else please feel free to chime in with the numbers.
Since you did invite me to chime in on the numbers, allow me to speculate a bit myself.
I don't see the need for there to be ANY machines to support payouts. If they charge an investor $12,000 for a machine, they can use that $12,000 to pay out a lot more investors in the short term than if they actually spent it on a machine and used legitimate revenue to pay them. My proposed business model only requires a steady stream of new suckers which is a lot easier to manage than trying to collate and distribute thousands of POS locations and incomes. Also, forget the "the investors own X machines and NASI owns Y machines" as I said, I'll be shocked if more than 10K machines exist, and I won't be at all surprised if it's closer to 3,000. The revenue from all the machines was more than likely pooled into one place from which they honored what payouts they needed to make in order to keep up appearances, and when the suckers quit signing up the money wasn't there to pay them, and, well, here we are.
If they had EVERY single machine they supposedly sold and were in fact operating them, it's doubtful to impossible that they would support the returns promised. In your own post you said "investors who put in the last 5 years would get there money back in 4-5 years " so it logically follows that every new investment would self sustain itself for the same 4-5 years if the machine doesn't even exist.
And I truly hope you're just an innocent victim, I really do, but 10 years of watching scams unfold has jaded me and to be frank, I'm not convinced....
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
Other than kicking myself for being an idiot, my conscience is completely clear. And this is my last post as doing some basic math seems to imply insider knowledge which isn't the case.
You yourself say they could have 10,000 machines and it is conceivable that each machine generates $400/mo to the company or about $40 mil per year. The math as I see it, using 2013 as the example, is as follows: assuming the company had sold 28,000 machines to investors means they had to pay out $80 mil to investors that year. If there was no revenue, they would have had to sell 6500 machines in the previous 12 months to cover it. To believe that you'd have to believe they sold 25% of all machines sold in 19 years in that one year. My guess is they sold closer to 2500-3000 based on what the subpoena asks for. Meaning they raised around $35 mil at the most and the other $45 mil came from revenue. The number of machines they own depends on how much revenue they generate and if you believe the revenue is around $40 mil per year. Assuming that, if each machine generates $400/mo than they would own 9000 machines. If they generate only 200/mo they would have to own around 18,000. If it's as low as 3000, each machine would have to generate around $1200/mo and that's not possible. I think this company has had to generate decent income or it couldn't last more than a few years. I could be wrong but we'll see. I hope everyone comes out whole.
I appreciate your optimism. I also appreciate gregg's realism. YOU have to remember what got you into this mess: the desire/ability to believe that certain things you were told were actually true without looking for OBJECTIVE evidence to prove one way or the other. It's a handicap we all share in one way or another because we're human. I'm not judging you, I'm giving you some benefit of doubt, I see you (like many others I'm sure) TRYING to be realistic and come to terms with what has happened, but having to fight your deep-seated BELIEFS that were planted in you by the perpetrators of this scam. ... The same goes for everyone else out there like 10 yr. ...
I am NOT enjoying this one bit, it makes me sick to my stomach....
Maybe this little mantra can help: "hope for the best, but plan for the worst".
Remember, you're all HUMAN, the "human-ness" in you was taken advantage of, you WANT to believe in the goodness of other people. The first time I heard of this scam I have to admit after my initial skeptical reaction and after I didn't quickly find negative reports on ATM-leasebacks on the web (I searched for maybe 5 minutes the first time), the road of 'belief' that you went down was looking good to me. ... Then I found this website and I was motivated to search some more....
Now,... personally... I don't believe there is one ATM machine... I found, too easily for an ignoramus like me, a little too much evidence that Joel has been a scammer for a long time. Go back and follow some of the stories/links I posted about the Fuel Doctor, and the other stuff I found.... I was at one time tempted to think that maybe Joel and Ed STARTED a legitimate business with good intentions, but it got away from them, and maybe (since they were already in their 50's) they were already jaded with business realities and rationalized the slide into 'fudging', etc.... But, then I found the Fuel Doctor story, and other things... Can you imagine being in their shoes? Can you imagine doing to your own family what they've now done to theirs, as well as THOUSANDS of other families? That is incredibly scary to think about, there's a real mental abyss that you have to either be born, or somehow slide/fall, into to be able to wreak such havoc while you're living the high life.
Hope for the best... plan for the worst.... I should be an insurance salesman...
If you have to "Believe" something, that means you can't prove that it's true... please, for your own sake, speak and act accordingly...
To go along with what Webhick said, if you have any documentation about what you put into this definitely hang on to them, they may well be the only record of what you actually invested. There is no way to tell how good or bad the record keeping at NASI was, either intentionally or by accident, and they may well be your only proof of claim.
To 10 year investor, don't hold your breath, what you paid in taxes may, probably will, have exactly zero to do with what they decide due to be clawed back. Depending on just how honest or dishonest this operation was, there may have been NO real profits for its entire run and any money you got will have to be returned. Too early yet to tell, but so far, none of these I've seen have turned out well.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
Thanks for the input and information. The more and more this is discussed. The stories/things said...it speaks Ponzi. The money ended up in only one place most likely, that of Gillis and Wishner.
10 year investor wrote:They all heard the same story from Joel. That the company owned 17,000 machines and the investors 8000. That over $10 million in revenue comes in each month. I know many investors and have never heard of anyone paying more than $12k for a machine and nobody was ever offered or took a commission.
I see a passel of multiplication and guzindas 'round these parts ("Five guzinda 20 four times... six guzinda twelve two times... 10,000 guzinda a million a hunnurt times...") but most are predicated on an interesting premise: that Joel Gillis has told the truth for more than fifteen seconds at a time since he was 9. So all the hypothetical annual nets and grosses are ohhh... speculative, perhaps?
I know, I know, you can only play with the numbers which are available, but consider the source of those numbers, and his history.
I don't doubt 10-year's assertion that he's never crossed paths with anyone paying more that $12K per machine. And to the contrary, I know no one who paid less than $19.5K for theirs. Those who live in $19K-Land seem to have been walled off from those with machines in the $12K neighborhood. Amazing what a few blocks and a different zip code can mean to property values.
CoachSG wrote:This is my first post. I've read the entire 22 page blog starting in 2009. I will add what I know. I've been an investor owning 10 machines for 11 months. I paid 12K for each machine. I have specific locations and serial #s provided on each ATM. I have Google mapped each location and tomorrow am going to attempt to confirm their existence.
From what I've heard, the locations don't exactly include a street address and in the instance of a gas station, it's difficult to know which gas station in that city allegedly has your ATM. Additionally, it's not enough to know that an ATM is at the location - you have to know who owns it.
When chosen for jury duty, tell the judge "fortune cookie says guilty" - A fortune cookie
Seems strange that given all the information above and supposedly enough evidence already to prove fraud, that no assets have been frozen yet and Joel & Ed are still walking the streets in a neighborhood full of angry people.
Lost Income wrote:Seems strange that given all the information above and supposedly enough evidence already to prove fraud, that no assets have been frozen yet and Joel & Ed are still walking the streets in a neighborhood full of angry people.
My theory is that NASIs accounts were frozen last month and in order to make good on the payouts, NASI ran to another bank to open a new account (that the authorities would not know about yet) in order to keep up appearances.
Just a theory. It'll be interesting to see if it lines up with reality.
When chosen for jury duty, tell the judge "fortune cookie says guilty" - A fortune cookie
10 year investor wrote:My hope is they get made whole and I was doing some speculative math that shows they could.
This is exactly what I was addressing earlier. It was "hope" that got people to invest in NASI's scheme in the beginning. They "hoped" that this would be the jackpot that Joel and Gillis promised them. And now its "hope" that maybe Joel and Gillis were somewhat truthful about the number of ATMS and the income streams so that the victims can "hope" that they can be made whole. The problem with "hopeful mathematics" is that it starts off on the basis that all the money is still there. It isn't - if it was, NASI wouldn't be stopping payments.
Mathematically, it seems the company does have about $40 million in real revenue and hopefully it's at least that. I was just running speculative numbers so relax or comprehend better.
I note the subjective words "seems" and "hopefully" are being used with objective words "mathematics" and "numbers." That won't work. It never does. This is why there are so many victims in this scheme. Emotions have been the dominating force for these investors and they still cannot let go. So they are going to prolong their suffering instead of facing the reality of the situation and learning how they got themselves into this mess by listening with their passion instead of their reason.
10 year investor wrote: And this is my last post as doing some basic math seems to imply insider knowledge which isn't the case
That would be the wisest course of action. Not because it will prove that you are not an "insider" (I never thought you were an insider) but because it will give you and the other victims a beginning point to start accepting the situation as it truly is and to start learning from it. Otherwise the victims are just going to keep setting themselves up to be disappointed over and over to the bitter end.
One other thing to keep in mind, Gillis and Wishner have every incentive to continue to maintain that NASI has the assets to make every customer whole. I would not be surprised to see them hold out that SEC, FBI, IRS, etc. are the ones to blame when it turns out that "whole" cannot happen. This is the typical way that scamsters continue to manipulate their victims and try to turn their anger, blame and hurt away from the scammers and onto the third parties who exposed the scheme. But this is where the victims need to remember that it was Gillis and Wishner who started this scam, and that this scam would fall apart, sooner or later, and that it is more fortunate that the scam got exposed now than later (and less fortunate that it wasn't exposed sooner).
"I could be dead wrong on this" - Irwin Schiff
"Do you realize I may even be delusional with respect to my income tax beliefs? " - Irwin Schiff
1. Does anyone on this thread have certain knowledge that any bank accounts have been frozen by any regulatory or law enforcement agency? Frozen by a bank for NSF doesn't count.
In what follows I'll try to shed a little light on questions that have popped up in the last couple of days.
2. I see no reason why this investment could not be held inside an IRA as long as there is no beneficial interest. For instance if you or a relative received a commission for selling it to the IRA it would fail the test. Otherwise, it is a passive investment which I believe would be acceptable. So I don't think the IRA issue is important. You can hold all kinds of investments inside an IRA that don't have to be registered. I hold an entire LLC that I control within my IRA. It depends on the custodian. Self directed IRAs should have no problem with it and a missed payment would be no cause for action.
3. If we look at the subpoena there are some clues as to what the SEC is thinking. First, it is treating the agreement as a security. We know this because they are asking for proof about advertising claims. There are guidelines about how you may advertise any security both murky and clear. If you make claims about the performance of that security or details of its conduct you had better be able to back them up.
4. If you are selling securities, the security must be registered, the firm must be a licensed and the representative (commission taker) must also be licensed. NASI fails all these tests if you consider the agreement a security. These usually result in financial, not criminal penalties and you can be barred from continuance.
5. I have argued elsewhere on this thread that the structure of the agreement is that of an annuity. The tell is that payments are guaranteed of a certain size or percentage - at least in the agreements I have read. Annuities are securities. I believe the SEC is taking that point of view. I have written an entire post on the issue so I won't repeat it here.
6. If there is fraud in the contract, that is of interest to the FBI if it is interstate fraud. I'm not well informed about the jurisdictional issues here. I do know that the FBI works closely with the SEC in the case where an action may be deemed a Ponzi scheme.
7. Suspicion that fraud may be occurring is not sufficient for arrest. We might like to keep in mind that this is an investigation. Conclusions from that investigation may or may not result in arrest or indictments. NASI has not been accused of anything by the authorities - yet. For now - the SEC is trying to determine if the activities of NASI fall within their jurisdiction for compliance enforcement and I guess the FBI is trying to determine if there is systematic fraud in the inducement of these contracts.
