ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[webhick]

All the locations have a name of the venue...

Which is not as useful when it's Citgo and there's like one on every corner.

[AndyK]

Is it just me, or is this beginning to sound like the DINAR RV thread

[dawnth]

HI,
I have not yet received the Sept 9th letter, nor has my family. We did receive the Aug 28th letter. I'm happy to post it if you would like, just let me know how.
Will post my experience.

Concerned emailed a pic of the letter to me and it does indeed say, verbatim, what he had wrote. If anyone else wants I can upload it later. I checked the SEC site last night and did not find any mention of the SEC looking into NAS, but that's hardly unusual in the beginnings of an investigation.

[MarvinGardens]

Is it just me, or is this beginning to sound like the DINAR RV thread

There are some definite similarities, aren't there?

The Dinar RV theory can be refuted with basic monetary economics.

On this thread, I can't get anybody to explain to me how you can borrow money long term at 20%, invest it in an industry that yields a verified average of 7% and make money. Thus my point that that probably isn't what they are doing.

The client who brought this NASI investment to my attention is also very interested in the DINAR RV scam.

[dawnth]

Hi,
I just came across this board yesterday when I started having a funny feeling about my investments and my mom's investment. She has $400,000 tied up. Thankfull,y I only have $60,000 and I just started this year. (Its still hurts to know, I lost all that money I worked so hard for.) She has been investing for about 17 years, so I thought, "it must be safe."

I thought I would share my experience as an investor for less than a year. I purchased 3 machines, and my first for my IRA.

That being said, I'm not experienced in investing. I was always perfectly happy with my money in savings. I did try real estate lending for a year, and though it went through and I made my 9%, there was a hiccough at the end, I didn't feel comfortable with, so I asked for my money back and took my mom's suggestion. She says she has never once had a problem with payments, etc etc.

I am, however, self employed and want to understand as much as I can, knowing there are certainly things I do not have time to learn, so I have to accept some information at face value.
I have read on this board that it isn't a good investment as you ran the numbers, etc etc..

To me is was like my real estate venture. You put up an amount and receive your monthly interest. I put up $60Gs for real estate, made 9% with a one year requirement and I get my money back. With ATM, 2 year commitment at 20G a pop at 20%. Same concept.

My initial contact with Joel Gillis... He seemed to have an attitude problem. What I can only describe as arrogance. My first machine was purchased for my Roth IRA. He said I needed a custodial account, and provided me with a company referral. I looked into them and they were so expensive!! So I did my research on self directed IRA custodials and asked him if I could use this other company. He said " I have no interest in taking on any new companies". I was taken back. He said the fees might be high, Im still coming out ahead at $333 per month in income, v/s what I would normally get from the usual IRA investments.
That certainly is true, but I like to have options... His contracts are mailed regular mail. I asked him time and time again, fax it or email it, so I can have done and sent to you right away. First he says ok. I wait days. I call, he says, he mailed it.. More days... I call again.. " I thought I mailed it, I will mail another". I got it 3 days later. TO correct myself the contracts were about 6 pages long, very simple.. My job and life revolves around reading contracts.. I have never read legal contract that was so simple a caveman could read it. In essence is said. You buy ATM machine from me for $19,800. You will receive a minimum of 20% approximately $333 each month. After 2 years I will buy back ATM if you do not want it anymore..
Every contract I have ever read has a million more pages addressing what may happen and how it will be addressed. There were a few things discussed that would result in arbitration.

I'm thinking... "Is this guy so old, he can run his business up to the standards of modern world?" Feeling weird, gut telling me something.. I ignore.

Then I started to concern myself with the fact that he is running this business like a caveman and maybe he is up there in age, what happens if he departs what will happen to my money.. Well, I emailed him and asked his that questions. He was offended, I could tell.. Paraphrasing, he said "Don't you think I would have a back up if I died or decided to retire? " I thought to myself, "the way this business is being run, you need a back up now!" I felt like I had to tip toe around this guy and be really nice because he had my money.. What a weird an unwarranted feeling.

Now, what I think is very strange, is that when I email, he rarely responses. When I call, he either answers or a lady answers, and the voicemail is cold and mechanical. I would think that a company with so many investors would be making enough money to have a modern phone system and customer service staff.

Early this year, I get a letter that the custodial company he recommended requires certain information from the investors regarding their investment, that he believed was confidential to the investors and give us the option to move custodial companies. The fees were less, so I was fine with that... I handled what I needed to immediately with the custodial company. However, it took like 4 months for the transfer to occur, occurring me fees.. Why??? Because Joel, insisted on mailing the paperwork and then we would forget, and then the custodial company needed things from him, and he would say he needed things from them. It was ridiculous. Once again, feeling not right. I bought two more machines this year, and did receive my payment on the first of the month every month.

Almost bought another machine 2 months ago, and thought... Umm no, I better wait, I prefer having enough cash in my account, being self employed business is up and it is down and I always want to make sure I have money readily available to pay bills when business is down.

My Aug IRA payment bounced, I called he said he was reissuing check, and the new check went through.

Aug 28th, I received the letter I referred to in my previous post, regarding their oopsy with Aug payout. I understood that something like that can happen when people are impatient.
We have not received the Sept 9 letter as of yet, if at all.

My question is, did an investor file a complaint because of the of Aug's problem? Or what this Securities issue already in motion and Aug was non-related snafoo... Any information from other investors would be so helpful. I have been reading my contracts again, and it clearly states the machine itself belongs to me, so I will be contacting ATM express I called one of the places that holds my machine to get the number.

[dawnth]

I was thinking the same thing.. I have documents stating a serial number to my 3 machines, but how do I prove that number exists other than to call the place that holds the machine. If I own the machines, cant I have someone else maintain them? It states in my contract that the ATM is my sole personal property.
Any advice on how I can change management company to maintain the ATM on my behalf?
1 year investor here.

10 yr investor:

Since you seem to be the only investor I've personally heard has actual serial numbers of machines you own, then YOU don't have a problem:
Paragraph 8 of the contract I was sent (which should be similar to yours) specifically states that you have all the rights of ownership of YOUR machines. You can therefore just take control and hire someone else to manage them for you and send you a check every month. Problem solved. Right?

And, you know what? This advice goes for all of you that really believe NASI is legitimate. Those of you that DON'T have serial numbers or some proof of ownership of your ATM's might have a little more trouble. You'll have to ask Joel for it of course ( ), but do it. Go repossess YOUR machines, exercise your right as stated in your contract. You don't have any reason to complain on this website, just repossess your machines.

[webhick]

I was thinking the same thing.. I have documents stating a serial number to my 3 machines, but how do I prove that number exists other than to call the place that holds the machine. If I own the machines, cant I have someone else maintain them? It states in my contract that the ATM is my sole personal property.
Any advice on how I can change management company to maintain the ATM on my behalf?
1 year investor here.

I'd be more concerned about whether or not you even own the ATM at the location more than the serial numbers. I've been doing a bit of research and of the ATMs I've located, they appear to be connected to legitimate ATM firms. You know, the kind you call if you've got a business and want to put an ATM in it. I'm in the early stages of research and haven't made any phone calls or asked people to check out the locations. It may not even be necessary.

I am still interested in cross-referencing various investor's monthly transaction reports for similarities in locations/serial numbers as well as other patterns. If anyone wants to send me a report or two, please PM me. I will let you know any findings and promise to do my best to keep this anonymous. While I doubt this will help the investigation, it may give us all some insight into how NASI has been operating.

[snookered]

Webhack - I sent you my locations. You got it, right?

[notorial dissent]

To go along with Webhick's earlier comment, I have, and have had a gut feeling, that despite what paperwork you may have in hand, that the machines, assuming they do exist, are registered/licensed only and soley in NASI's name, and that for legal purposes they belong only and soley to NASI regardless of what you were told or what your paperwork says. This was something that bothered me when this was first brought up and it still bothers me. I've watched too many securities frauds go down, and this is almost always a part of the pattern.

The other thing I will say is that regardless of the figures that have been thrown around, I wouldn't take anything for granted until the SEC, or whoever at this point, gets done doing a real audit of the company, until then, it is all fantasy as far as I am concerned. A lot is going to depend on the type and quality of records the company kept as to how quick and how accurate the accounting will be.

[The Observer]

To go along with Webhick's earlier comment, I have, and have had a gut feeling, that despite what paperwork you may have in hand, that the machines, assuming they do exist, are registered/licensed only and soley in NASI's name, and that for legal purposes they belong only and soley to NASI regardless of what you were told or what your paperwork says. This was something that bothered me when this was first brought up and it still bothers me. I've watched too many securities frauds go down, and this is almost always a part of the pattern.

My thought has been that this arrangement existed so that NASI could quicky and easily transfer or sell the machines when they needed to, especially if the "feds are closing in" flag went up and our scammers needed some ready cash for a quick getaway.

And given the various reports here on the attitude and behavior of Joel Gillis, I am surprised that he didn't head for the airport several weeks ago. I can only surmise that his arrogance and greed blinded him to the fact that the game was over, that he believed he could manage through this current crisis and come out on top.

[notorial dissent]

I have to agree with pretty much everything Observer has said here. I really can’t think of any reason that the principals hung around after the wheels started to come off other than hubris myself, although I won’t discount just plain stupidity and greed, wanting that last little bit of money. It always amazes, or maybe that is amuses, me what stupid and/or greedy people will do.

FWIW, I can see a couple of reasons why NASI would have kept all the machines in their name, for licensing and registration, and probably tax purposes as well where they would have paid a tax on them, but that still doesn't help the putative owners when the rubber meets the road. As I say, I can see it as a reason, I just don’t happen to believe it was THE reason.

[webhick]

Webhack - I sent you my locations. You got it, right?

Yep.

[itzallgone]

I'm just curious why there was nothing earlier when the Subpoena was sent out in June.

[JamesVincent]

I'm just curious why there was nothing earlier when the Subpoena was sent out in June.

Couple of things come to mind. First, the subpoena is really no ones business but the company's until they decide to make it known. Second, it is the barest tip of an investigation and the SEC is not going to trumpet an investigation until there is something to say. We only heard about when Joel told his investors about it. Third, a subpoena, by itself, is nothing. Companies get issued subpoenas for information regarding business expenses, etc. that the SEC wants to know about and hasn't been filed. It only means that they are looking at something and want more information.

[JamesVincent]

NAS has all the rights and liabilities of ownership per operating agreement. ATM is licensed to them. If something happens, it's on NAS. If something happens to NAS, we the investor are the beneficiary of an insurance policy that covers our original investment. That policy is paid from NAS's end and does not come out of our 50 cent per txn amount. We (the investor) are paid net 30, so I think we lose the check for the month if something like that happens.

Took awhile to find it but it's there. SomeYuppie and I talked about this to some length. Basically, at the end of the day, you own a piece of paper, maybe not even pretty looking, that says you gave someone a bunch of money to buy an ATM. Nothing else. And no one has since corroborated what exactly the insurance policy covers, and someone has said it pays to NAS if something happens. So you have nothing to tie you into the machine itself, no rights to repossess, no rights to run it yourself, anything.

[notorial dissent]

And then there is the insurance policy that no one seems to have anything but the barest of information on. This was one of the other things that bothered me from the beginning. My guess is that there is no such thing as I would think premiums on something like that if it existed, would be staggering.

[ATMCompany2]

A colleague turned me onto this board. I run a mid-sized ATM company in the US and I am sorry to see this happen. I am happy to help here on the boards where I can. I have been scrolling through most of the pages and have a few thoughts off the bat:

1) Did Joel provide web access to the ATMs owned for each investor to run and monitor? If he said it couldn’t be done, that’s a lie. We have an ATM portal to check machine balances, errors, run transaction reports, etc. We set up sub-logins with limited access to our merchants, cash loaders and affiliates.

2) If Joel sent paper statements, it’s very easy to create the raw data on a true web portal, export it to excel, manipulate the data, print and send to the investor. Or one could manipulate the address and have 5 of the same reports going to different investors, all with the different location addresses. The paper statement should have a unique identifier on it called a terminal ID. With Worldpay (I thought someone mentioned Worldpay) , the terminal ID starts with “LK” and then some numbers. You could call Worldpay’s tech support and pretend to be a dumb ATM tech, give them the terminal ID and verify if the site is correct.


3) If you are local to a So. Cal.-purported ATM, visit it pretending to be a customer. Do an incorrect PIN on purpose on the machine. A receipt will print out that may or may not have a company number. Keep the receipt, as somewhere on there it will have the terminal ID. If it’s with Columbus Data (not Joel’s purported network, it will start with “P” and then 5 or 6 digits). There should also be a network sticker on the front of the machine. Grab that phone number and correspond the terminal ID when talking to tech support. If no network sticker is on machine, ask the hotel front desk. Say you had a problem with the transaction and what is the number for ATM tech support. Compare the terminal ID from the receipt with the one on the purported statement. If they match up, there may be some truth to the operation but maybe selling 1 deal to multiple people. If the terminal IDs don’t match, it’s a huge problem.

Let me know what questions you may have. I can share a lot more from an “ATM Insider’s” perspective.

[notorial dissent]

ATMCompany2, welcome to Quatloos. I have a question related to this. How are ATM's registered/licensed in CA and by who and how do you check? Thanks for the information too.

[10 year investor]

ATMCompany2-thank you for posting. Myself and other investors I know have checked on their local machines recently and confirmed that NAS owns them. Although on some, the call went to FCTI ATMs who said they are partners with NAS in the machines as of a couple months ago. I've been doing math for the past few days to figure out what was taken in, what the actual revenue is for the company and how much are investor losses. The best I can come up with is the revenue has to be around $40-$50 million per year because of how much has been paid out and how much as been taken in based on the FBI leak. If true, everyone from 2009 has received their principal, although there is still a massive income tax hit, and the losses for those since then are around $100 million. If you would be kind enough to answer a few questions.

-how much does each machine cost to purchase and install?
-how much revenue does each machine generate per month?
-investors have been getting around a 21% return on the hotel locations and 25% plus on the gas station locations. What is the typical annual return on a machine?
-supposedly some of these machines have been in the same locations for over 10 years or the company has had rights for that long. If there are no company performance issues, is that possible?
-how long are the contracts generally for between ATM companies and the locations they're placed?
-probably a duplicate question but if the fee is $3 per transaction, can you please breakdown where the $3 goes?
-what do you make of the FCTI partnership? Could they be just the processor?

Thank you very much. Your help is greatly appreciated.

[JamesVincent]

-how much does each machine cost to purchase and install?
-how much revenue does each machine generate per month?
-investors have been getting around a 21% return on the hotel locations and 25% plus on the gas station locations. What is the typical annual return on a machine?
-supposedly some of these machines have been in the same locations for over 10 years or the company has had rights for that long. If there are no company performance issues, is that possible?
-how long are the contracts generally for between ATM companies and the locations they're placed?
-probably a duplicate question but if the fee is $3 per transaction, can you please breakdown where the $3 goes?
-what do you make of the FCTI partnership? Could they be just the processor?

Thank you very much. Your help is greatly appreciated.

We went through this earlier in the thread.

-An ATM cost anywhere from $2k up to $7k depending on model, company, amount bought, new or used, etc. With the information that has been put in this thread there is no way to do a true cost analysis. When I did ATMs we charged $500 to deliver and set up an ATM. Since NAS supposedly owned their own maintenance company then delivery and setup should have been done inhouse. Having a dedicated phone line run to the location would have been an additional fee but would, again, depend on location.
-Depends on the machine. I did a full revenue estimation earlier, based on the numbers SomeYuppie gave us. Whether those numbers are accurate I can't tell you since we don't think SomeYuppie was entirely upfront and accurate, and may well not have known what the real deal was.
-ATM income wouldn't be measured as a percentage. Again something else we have gone through. ATM revenue is based solely on the transaction fee charged multiplied by the number of transaction minus processing fee and maintenance fees. Is it possible to pay out the kind of money that NAS was? Yes, in a controlled setting it could be. Could you guarantee it? No.
- What sort of performance issues are you talking about? As long as the ATM was functioning and fixed when it broke why would someone cancel a contract?
-A lot of these questions have a single answer, depends on the machine and the location. There is no typical since every situation is unique. I would hazard a rough guess to be 5 years but would, again, depend.
-$3 minus a 1.9% processing fee for the transaction (or whatever the percentage is). That processing fee is the only fee that should be automatic everytime. The rest goes to the company to use for maintenance, overhead, employee payroll, phone line, whatever associated business expenses. Or, in this case, $.50 back to the investor, or whatever arrangement was made.
-A processor would not own the machine. They may have been using surrogate companies to lease them or own them. Again, not enough information to know exactly. OR.... you could have been lied to about the machine itself.

10 year, we have covered a lot of these questions in depth earlier in the thread and, like I said, just about all of them depend on the machine itself and location. The numbers needed to run a full cost analysis are not here. We do not know what NAS paid their maintenance workers, we do not know the company and model of ATM to be able to look them up for a true cost, we do not know the number of ATMs they actually bought to be able to figure in a bulk discount, we don't know the percentage they paid to their processor, etc. Too much information missing to be able to do anything reasonable.

And, honestly, the numbers are really irrelevant since, as MarvinGardens rightly pointed out, the whole setup isn't about the ATMs, it is about the annuities. There is no way to guarantee, from month to month, what an ATM would do. Seasons effect the number of transactions, recessions (national and local), locations add or lose customers.

Something I will point out that has bothered me for awhile. Several people have claimed that if an ATM was under performing that NAS would move it. If they had a contract to supply an ATM to a specific location it would have been illegal to move it unless they had a rider in their contract giving them that power. I don't see companies giving them that power.

edit: added something