Stock and Bond Fraud, including Boiler Rooms / Pump and Dump Schemes, Mutual Fund & Hedge Fund Fraud, FOREX scams, plus Churning, Private Placements, Venture and Bridge Funding, IPOs, Viaticals Fraud, HYIP and Prime Bank scams, MTNs, Historical Notes, Recovery Schemes, etc. Includes the Jim Norman Project and the Michael Dotson Project and similar HYIP scams.
notorial dissent wrote:
In a perfect and stress free world, NASI would have kept meticulous records of what they took in and from whom and how much they paid out, and maybe their books would also show what they did with the surplus money. From what I have been hearing, particularly from the recent "investors", it doesn't sound like that was the case.
My suspicious nature says that the "boys" saw the light at the end of the tunnel, and it was the SEC investigation coming, and they tried to get as much in as they could before it all fell apart, hence the sudden burst of new members and the varying buy-ins. Which means that they may not have been keeping much in the way of records towards the end, and that is where documentation is going to be really really important.
Here's my Theory:
This has all happened 5 years after the stock marker collapse in 2009 from financial debacle back then.
So>>>investors either started to redeem machines and/ or there was a significant drop in recruiting NEW investors. This has now come to *roost* 5 years later which was earlier this year...the time it takes to pay new insestors back. Think of it as a *TSUNAMI* erupting 5 years ago and hitting our shores this year. Coincidence? Maybe
Do you wear a tinfoil hat? Its not nearly that comlicated. A clouple of guys ran a ponzi scheme, it got too big to sustain, it collapsed, and a lot of people lost money.
The reast is just the details, and it's just not that involved....not even the Russians, the Red Dragon Family, the Illuminati, Blue Blood Banker Dynasties or the Bilderburg Group had much to do with it...just a couple of crooks.
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
grimreaper wrote:I KNOW FOR A FACT there are a significant # of those *in the money* over the 4 year period.
Good, then share that fact with us so that we can evaluate and verify it as a fact. That means providing us with a list of the names of the investers for that 4 year period, the amount of money that they have received as earnings, and some independent documentation that verifies that those lists and numbers aren't just being pulled out of thin air or aren't based on what your best friend's mother's sister-in-law's cousin's next-door neighbor had told them.
Otherwise it isn't a fact, now matter how big or bold the font is.
I am not going to divulge personal info.
Oh, so you don't have any facts, I'm I getting this right?
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
I'm not afraid to share. Will eventually have to do so anyway, right?
I have been an investor since 2007. I started with 10 machines, and have added another 18 over the years. According to what I have read in this thread, and what I have researched on my own, I will indeed have clawbacks on my first 10 machines. I was paid back for those machines in 2012, and I reckon every penny that I have made after that is dust. I have done meticulous math, and up to the date that that my machines started operating until I got my last check, I figure that I have made exactly $49,500 in profits from those 10 machines.
My question is, what about the other 18 machines that have yet to return a profit, (I bought some as early as last year), will that wipe out the $49,500 that I earned in profit?
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
snookered wrote:I'm not afraid to share. Will eventually have to do so anyway, right?
I have been an investor since 2007. I started with 10 machines, and have added another 18 over the years. According to what I have read in this thread, and what I have researched on my own, I will indeed have clawbacks on my first 10 machines. I was paid back for those machines in 2012, and I reckon every penny that I have made after that is dust. I have done meticulous math, and up to the date that that my machines started operating until I got my last check, I figure that I have made exactly $49,500 in profits from those 10 machines.
My question is, what about the other 18 machines that have yet to return a profit, (I bought some as early as last year), will that wipe out the $49,500 that I earned in profit?
Your "position" will be evaluated as one, in fact, if say, you and your wife had seperate accounts, they could be combined into one for the purpose of clawbacks. What you put in, from back when Moses walked the Earth, measured against what you took out, up until half an hour ago....is what matters, its not the machines its the consolidated account.
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
First of all. I do not have a husband and I am not a Man.
Money from 3 of my first 5 machines benefitted my 3 children. Cars. Clothes. School. The rest of the machines benefitted me and my household obligations as a single parent.
Other than that, I'm not sure I get the gist of your comment. Do you care to elaborate?
Gregg wrote:
Oh, so you don't have any facts, I'm I getting this right?
I'm NOT at liberty to divulge any specifics of what I know. Before deciding to post on this blog I made an agreement not to reveal ANY details. If it was up to me, I would do so, but it isn't. If you don't want to believe me, so be it.
snookered wrote:I'm not afraid to share. Will eventually have to do so anyway, right?
I have been an investor since 2007. I started with 10 machines, and have added another 18 over the years. According to what I have read in this thread, and what I have researched on my own, I will indeed have clawbacks on my first 10 machines. I was paid back for those machines in 2012, and I reckon every penny that I have made after that is dust. I have done meticulous math, and up to the date that that my machines started operating until I got my last check, I figure that I have made exactly $49,500 in profits from those 10 machines.
My question is, what about the other 18 machines that have yet to return a profit, (I bought some as early as last year), will that wipe out the $49,500 that I earned in profit?
Very sorry. I have friends and relatives in the same situation. They will be able to determine any net profits you have over the last 4 years. Put in simple terms it's the total distributions MINUS what you paid for the *machines*. They are looking to insure you get only what you invested and nothing MORE. As an example, for the 18 machines bought early last year, they will take the TOTAL distributions you received for those *machines* and deduct what you paid for them. You are a *net loser* but it's not a TOTAL loss, since did receive some money back. That's why you have PARTIAL LOSES not total loses. In theory, you'll be eligible for only the *loss* portion.
Now, as far as the 10 machines from 2007. Yes you will have to forfeit ALL profits from them between 2012 and the present. IN ADDITION, you're still exposed to part of 2010-2012 as well (if Ca resident), since they can go back FOUR YEARS . You will be exposed to the distributions in that period as well...BUT, you get to deduct the initial 18 machine investment, so you will have a PARTIAL LOSS in that period, not a TOTAL loss.
In sum, you're net winner from 2012 on the first 18 machines and will take partial losses on BOTH the 18 machines from 2010-2012 AND the 10 machine purchased last year. a MIXED BAG, but easily dertermined as ALL of them will be.
NOTE: You will be able to go back and either amend your tax returns OR take a one time deduction for TAXES PAID on any monies clawed back from you.
Last edited by grimreaper on Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
First of all. I do not have a husband and I am not a Man.
Money from 3 of my first 5 machines benefitted my 3 children. Cars. Clothes. School. The rest of the machines benefitted me and my household obligations as a single parent.
Other than that, I'm not sure I get the gist of your comment. Do you care to elaborate?
I didn't mean that to be specific to you, in the Madoff case, there were situations were one person had a loss and a spouse had a gain, the two positions were combined. And they can go back in determining your net position as they can trace, again, some entities (I know of only trusts and corporations, not sure if natural persons would be the same) they went back to the very beginning of the scheme, over 10 years.
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
snookered wrote:I'm not afraid to share. Will eventually have to do so anyway, right?
I have been an investor since 2007. I started with 10 machines, and have added another 18 over the years. According to what I have read in this thread, and what I have researched on my own, I will indeed have clawbacks on my first 10 machines. I was paid back for those machines in 2012, and I reckon every penny that I have made after that is dust. I have done meticulous math, and up to the date that that my machines started operating until I got my last check, I figure that I have made exactly $49,500 in profits from those 10 machines.
My question is, what about the other 18 machines that have yet to return a profit, (I bought some as early as last year), will that wipe out the $49,500 that I earned in profit?
Very sorry. I have friends and relatives in the same situation. They will be able to determine any net profits you have over the last 4 years. Put in simple terms it's the total distributions MINUS what you paid for the *machines*. They are looking to insure you get only what you invested and nothing MORE. As an example, for the 18 machines bought early last year, they will take the TOTAL distributions you received for those *machines* and deduct what you paid for them. You are a *net loser* but it's not a TOTAL loss, since did receive some money back. That's why you have PARTIAL LOSES not total loses. In theory, you'll be eligible for only the *loss* portion.
Now, as far as the 10 machines from 2007. Yes you will have to forfeit ALL profits from them between 2102 and the present. IN ADDITION, you're still exposed to part of 2010-2012 as well (if Ca resident), since they can go back FOUR YEARS . You will be exposed to the distributions in that period as well...BUT, you get to deduct the initial 18 machine investment, so you will have a PARTIAL LOSS in that period, not a TOTAL loss.
In sum, you're net winner from 2012 on the first 18 machines and will take partial losses on BOTH the 18 machines from 2010-2012 AND the 10 machine purchased last year. a MIXED BAG, but easily dertermined as ALL of them will be.
NOTE: You will be able to go back and either amend your tax returns OR take a one time deduction for TAXES PAID on any monies clawed back from you.
Nope, not right. First, the whole bit of where you reside might not apply as much as where the case is filed, which will most likely be California. They don't have to set up 50 different standards for the victims, everyone will be treated the same. And as above, in Madoff, they determined net postions from inception, which isn't to say the clawbacks might ponly apply to payments within a time period later determined. In Madoff clawbacks went back to inception also, at least for non-natural persons and I'm gonna check for any real people when I get back to the Well Armed Bunker Complex..... but it doesn't matter if you bought X machines in 199X and Y machines in 200Y, the account is one account and the net position of the account goes to when it was opened.
Supreme Commander of The Imperial Illuminati Air Force
Your concern is duly noted, filed, folded, stamped, sealed with wax and affixed with a thumbprint in red ink, forgotten, recalled, considered, reconsidered, appealed, denied and quietly ignored.
Having read all the posts from the 1st page to the 33rd (so far) I can tell this is bigger than just a localized scandal. One person posted that their friend has 900 atm contracts! What will be interesting to see play out, is how people will cope with the loss and betrayal of a friend and or family member having brought them into this "investment", with the holidays coming up. There is the obvious financial pain but, there will be a longer lasting emotional tsunami. Sitting across from the person who helped bring your retirement/life savings down to zero at Thanksgiving, Christmas etc. How can you help thinking, did they know this was a Madoff? Are they a true victim also? But most importantly, What in the hell was I thinking?!! Maybe, a lot of people put their brains on pause because the messenger was more trusted and amazing than the message. It is a very effective head fake, which I now see is how any long term scheme needs to be profitable.
Outside of the ATM's Joel and Ed also handled retirement accounts and Roth IRA's. Someone had posted this was only 11 months new, not sure that is correct. I have had a contract for several years and pretty sure I was receiving letters discussing those types of accounts back then.
If someone walks up to me on the street and steals my new cell phone, when caught I can expect justice and jail time. White collar crime, on the other hand, someone is able to bilk millions from multiple people from their relaxing oceanside property (Cabana apparently) in Hawaii and they might pay a fine? A slap on the wrist? Hide money in an off shore accounts and wait for the dust to settle and set up elsewhere. So many lessons were learned here the hard way, relationships are going to be shredded, trust broken, bank accounts drained and marriages strained.
Last edited by Timehasrunout on Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nope, not right. First, the whole bit of where you reside might not apply as much as where the case is filed, which will most likely be California. They don't have to set up 50 different standards for the victims, everyone will be treated the same. And as above, in Madoff, they determined net postions from inception, which isn't to say the clawbacks might ponly apply to payments within a time period later determined. In Madoff clawbacks went back to inception also, at least for non-natural persons and I'm gonna check for any real people when I get back to the Well Armed Bunker Complex..... but it doesn't matter if you bought X machines in 199X and Y machines in 200Y, the account is one account and the net position of the account goes to when it was opened.
WRONG AGAIN>>>
" Federal Court decided that where there is a difference between Statutes of Limitations between the State where the Debtor originally signed the contract and the State that they now reside, the Court must use the Statute of Limitations that is shortest between A) The original contract State, B) The State in which the Defendant currently resides or C) The State in which the Creditor is incorporated. This is not very good for Creditors be "cause most banks are incorporated in Delaware which has a 3 year Statute of Limitations."
Now>>>>
What's not right about my statement? You said yourself most likely Ca and that's 4 years.
Now here's where YOU'RE WRONG...AGAIN!>>>> They will NOT be able to look at *net positions* that resulted in distributions PRIOR to the statute of limitations period, which in this case would be contracts established prior to 2006 (give or take).
All you guys do is argue amongst yourselves about who knows more about whatever subject. It really looks silly from the outside. Just saying.
I sense a lot of "feather puffing" here, of who knows more here on this Blog/Forum than the other guy. For those of us seeking real answers and advice, its confusing.
Those of us who are victims appreciate all of your efforts, but there has also been a lot of confusion amongst us as a result of your numerous speculative references.
Victims.... take what information has been provided here that makes sense to you. Follow it up with your own independent research. Sit back, take a very deep breath, and wait to be contacted by the authorities, NOT INVESTOR GROUPS. Stay away from the groups unless you just want to rant and share your personal experience. But, if someone in the group wants a "retainer", or any money from you.... RUN! They are not there to help you.
He said, they said. This case, that case. It means NOTHING to us, or this case. It is all speculation of how it could go down. We all know now, what COULD happen. None of us know what will happen. Do yourself a favor and start planning for the worst case scenario. Better to be prepared, than caught off guard.
The victims have gleaned a lot of good info here, if they have been able to follow and digest the information.
Expect the best. But plan for the worst. That's where I am right now.
snookered wrote:All you guys do is argue amongst yourselves about who knows more about whatever subject. It really looks silly from the outside. Just saying.
I sense a lot of "feather puffing" here, of who knows more here on this Blog/Forum than the other guy. For those of us seeking real answers and advice, its confusing.
Those of us who are victims appreciate all of your efforts, but there has also been a lot of confusion amongst us as a result of your numerous speculative references.
Victims.... take what information has been provided here that makes sense to you. Follow it up with your own independent research. Sit back, take a very deep breath, and wait to be contacted by the authorities, NOT INVESTOR GROUPS. Stay away from the groups unless you just want to rant and share your personal experience. But, if someone in the group wants a "retainer", or any money from you.... RUN! They are not there to help you.
He said, they said. This case, that case. It means NOTHING to us, or this case. It is all speculation of how it could go down. We all know now, what COULD happen. None of us know what will happen. Do yourself a favor and start planning for the worst case scenario. Better to be prepared, than caught off guard.
The victims have gleaned a lot of good info here, if they have been able to follow and digest the information.
Expect the best. But plan for the worst. That's where I am right now.
Agree! Well said!
I'm sorry the conversation has turned into *huffing and puffing*. Perhaps it has. I just get PISSED when people throw S$#T out there hoping it will stick and don't know WTF they're talking about.
I have family and friends who are in this big time and I DO have a vested interest in this, albeit indirectly.
But, this will not ruin me financially. Thank God, I was aware of the importance of "diversification" when I decided to "invest" with NASI. At least I was smart there. Many others, were not. A tragedy, indeed.
I feel deeply for those that can lest afford this tragedy. I wish I could "wish" this away for them. I have met some of the elders. The elder "Victims", that I encountered outside of both Joel and Ed's offices. Ever optimistic in the face of failure. I've seen the disbelief and desperation in their faces, and felt my own sense of angst along with theirs. Only my angst is different. I will survive. These sweet innocents, they likely will not.
Please, fellow Forum members, be more empathetic to the victims. Let's give them a voice here rather than making them feel like they have to go and join some ranting Investor Group, or feel as is their comments are not worthy of comment, or replys that are made to make them feel ignorant. This is very new territory for a very large number of people. Be nice. Empathize, please.
After all, is that not really why we are all here? To share information and support one another?
Indeed. The one-upping of late has been a bit much. There's plenty of time for word-parsing, precedent-citing, name-calling and vitriol against the correct targets.
A great place to start might be at bankruptcy court, 21041 Burbank Blvd, Woodland Hills, CA, room 301, on November 6th at 2 pm.
Thank you Snookered
My wife and I are retired and we have a wonderful life. Fourteen months ago I was approached about this investment opportunity by good friends. My wife was against it. But. I cashed in an investment paying 4% interest and bought 8 machines; then against my wife's wish I bought another 10 and then 5 more. I got checks for 10 months and I almost had my wife convinced I did the right thing. I feel like a failure and I let the love of my life down. Fortunately we will still get by but I am so interested in what is going on and what my next move should be. This site helps me to calm down and know I am not alone. This is real to me...thanks to everyone who provides insight and speculative information. It helps.
