ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[MarvinGardens]

Can anyone give me some insight on whom I should contact about this ATM investment as my IRA?
I have contacted the custodial company, and they can't give me any advice or information? I even now have asked them "Entrust Group", how they handle issues such as fraud. I want to close my account, because they are going to charge me fees up the wazoo for an investment that doesn't really exist, even though it shows the value of one machine, it doesn't really exist does it? I asked them to send me the docs to close account and to answer some questions. No response... What responsibilities do the custodial companies have? Thanks again.

My recommendation is that you do nothing. You have no official information and as far as we know officially NASI is still in business. It is no different than if you owned a piece of rental property in your IRA and the current tenants had missed a couple of payments or maybe they are damaging the property and you don't know about it yet.

You must own this investment inside of a self directed IRA. But there is no action you can take yet. Obviously, this year's return will be smaller than last year's. You may or may not get a tax information form from NASI. Ask your accountant what to do then when you normally file your taxes.

As to the custodian, they have no responsibilities until officially notified of any change of status of an investment contained within the IRA. They have either qualified the investment already or taken your word for it. It depends on the custodial agreement.

And to everyone: Don't panic. The damage is done. Wait. There is currently no tax event that requires you to take any action, amend any returns or do anything at all. I suggest you just sit tight until you know something officially.

By the way - those of you who have been in this for a while - how does NASI report income to the IRS - what form do they use?

[grimreaper]

By the way - those of you who have been in this for a while - how does NASI report income to the IRS - what form do they use?

1099. Those I know have received them every year.

[MarvinGardens]

By the way - those of you who have been in this for a while - how does NASI report income to the IRS - what form do they use?

1099. Those I know have received them every year.

Thanks, which 1099 do they use.

[Nationwideinvestor]

webhick: the caution note is understandable, but there's also a simple explanation that's hardly the devious set-up you're describing.

First, I should think anyone with any damned sense at all, reading this thread at any point from January of this year onward, could see that this thing was a scam and would come to no good end. And if your own money was at stake, you would want to do something to protect yourself.

As of today we know only when the request for involuntary bankruptcy was filed, not when the three victims coordinated their efforts and found a lawyer. Maybe it was immediately after the official notice of SEC involvement, and maybe it predated it. (And to me, neither is particularly suspicious.)

As for your worry that these three acted unilaterally in a big hurry rather than wait and round up 20 or 50 or 100 other scan victims--- the longer anyone waited to act, the worse the situation became. And the more people who knew about the bankruptcy petition, the more likely word would get back to Wisher & Gillis, giving them time for countermoves. There was a legal mandatory minimum of three complainants, they met the minimum, they took action. I don't see dark motives, just desperate action.

As I understand it as it's been explained here, the SEC involvement is simply an investigation in which the government subpoenas information because it suspects wrongdoing. It does not interfere with the company doing business-- like gathering new sucker money, paying out "dividends," bouncing checks, destroying documents and wiping hard drives, booking flights to the Cayman Islands or paying the company officers an unexpected "nice guy" bonus. None of that. It can all continue just jim-dandy while the SEC pores over 10 years' worth of check stubs and tries to figure out IF they should take action.

In the other hand, the request for involuntary bankruptcy (again, as I understand it here) basically jams a crowbar into the crooked machine and brings it to a halt, until someone (the court, the SEC or both.) places a neutral, acceptable custodian in charge instead of the grifters who own the enterprise. I beg your pardon. Alleged grifters.

I do understand the concern about some second scam aimed at the victims of the con. I didn't know this was a common thing, but there's a bunch of crookedness I don't know.

I don't see any indication of deviousness-- and I'm as suspicious as any of you. The three victims who filed for the enforced bankruptcy and their lawyer are the only people in this entire thread who have made their identities public. The only ones! That would be awfully goddamned stupid for people running a con or trying to snake people, now... wouldn't it?

This posting is thoughtful with reliable information and correct.

[snookered]

I have received a 1099 every year.

[webhick]

Just as the investigation doesn't immediately trigger an account freeze, the mere filing of an involuntary bankruptcy does not immediately stop NASI from getting rid of their assets. It's my understanding that the case actually has to be in bankruptcy for that to happen. So, Joel's got about 10 more days left on the response deadline or until the hearing (11/6/2014 at 02:00 PM at Crtrm 301, 21041 Burbank Blvd, Woodland Hills, CA) to offload his assets to places where no one can get to them (which the court will obviously not like). By that time, the SEC/FBI could shut NASI down. Could. Government is glacial, but a couple of months may be enough time for them to gather enough of what they need to act. Who knows.

Neither solution (gov't action or bankruptcy) is immediately going to stop Joel from throwing his assets to Switzerland (or wherever those magical offshore accounts exist these days) and then whatever money was there is gone. If your goal was to stop him from conducting business, I can applaud the altruistic nature of that. But I don't know. Bad feelings.

[snookered]

Remember, NASI got the subpoena in mid June. It is now late September. This investigation has already been going on for 3+ months.

If it's true that Joel and Ed met with the SEC in Washington DC this past Monday, there must be a substantial amount of information gathered by the SEC at this point, if they were to meet with them. I wonder if the meeting was mandatory?

[Tednewsom]

Did I miss something? "Meeting with the SEC in Washington DC"? Why would the 3000 mile trek be necessary? I would have thought they'd oblige with home delivery.

[webhick]

Did I miss something? "Meeting with the SEC in Washington DC"? Why would the 3000 mile trek be necessary? I would have thought they'd oblige with home delivery.

Especially since the case is being handled out of the SEC in California.

[Tednewsom]

Neither solution (gov't action or bankruptcy) is immediately going to stop Joel from throwing his assets to Switzerland (or wherever those magical offshore accounts exist these days) and then whatever money was there is gone. If your goal was to stop him from conducting business, I can applaud the altruistic nature of that. But I don't know. Bad feelings.

Yeah, okay, certainly an imperfect preventative action. What do you see as the possible, more effective alternatives?

A polite brunch with Affable Ed at the yacht club, and accepting his jolly reassurances at face value, because he picked up the check?

Cramming 60 or 70 people into the NAS office and holding a sit-in until everybody gets paid off in cash?

Filling a hall with 2500 debtors and tricking Joel into appearing for what he thinks is a surprise birthday party?

Or maybe hiring a couple one-eyebrow Armenian thugs named Krekor and Vahe to hold Gillis's wife and family in a shack in Ojai until he coughs up 50 million bucks?

It's not like there were a whole lot of options for protective action.

[snookered]

The information I shared about them going to DC came from an investor/victim who is personal friends with Joel and supposedly got that info straight from the horses mouth.

I have no idea if the statement is true or not. Just what I was told.

[webhick]

Government action is the best option for scam victims, as scams are crimes and that's kind of part of why we have government. Trying to take matters into your own hands may actually impede the big fat foot of justice. Now the Feds will have to either deal with this bankruptcy issue or deal with the results thereof while trying to do clawbacks.

In the meanttime, we can continue to try to stop Ed & Joel from reaching more victims, as it's hard for him to cash checks that aren't there. This thread is listed on the first page of Google when anyone searches for Nationwide Automated Systems. So, we're reaching some.

But how to reach the people who can't or don't google?

[webhick]

I made that Yahoo group and it's public because once it's private, then you can't make it public. I prefer options. It's been a while since I even used one of these things, so allow me a learning curve. I've uploaded the bankruptcy case files as well as the subpoena.

The forum is there for updates (which will also be posted here) and general support. Reload scam behavior will not be tolerated.

Anyone wishing to check it out in all its infinite emptiness can either search Yahoo groups for NASI Victimsor click the link to it. The thirty-five+ pages of posts here is likely daunting so maybe this will help victims come out of the woodwork.

[Tednewsom]

Yahoo seems a bit.... oh... quaint? Obsolete? Whiskered?

How about a Facebook page under the name ATM LEASEBACK INVESTIGATION-- NAS BANKRUPTCY with links up front to the useful places: here, the official info sites, etc. ?

[webhick]

Yahoo seems a bit.... oh... quaint? Obsolete? Whiskered?

How about a Facebook page under the name ATM LEASEBACK INVESTIGATION-- NAS BANKRUPTCY with links up front to the useful places: here, the official info sites, etc. ?

Right tool for the right job. The Yahoo Groups can do all of what you just said and is built for discussions. Facebook, on the other hand, is built for YOLO bullshit and popularity contests.

I also have two Facebook accounts already. A third will drive me over the edge.

But if you want to start a FB support page, by all means do so. We can linkback and reach more potential victims.

[webhick]

The three victims who filed for the enforced bankruptcy and their lawyer are the only people in this entire thread who have made their identities public. The only ones! That would be awfully goddamned stupid for people running a con or trying to snake people, now... wouldn't it?

Couple issues with this. Firstly, they didn't really. Someone posted that NASI was in bankruptcy and solicited investors with only an anonymous email address. Someone else, not even a victim, posted the case no and then Wes made the petition available for everyone.

Second is the logical fallacy. Scammers make their identities known all the time. Hell, we wouldn't have much of a forum here if scammers led quiet lives. Bankruptcy filings are public information and anyone searching pacer for actions against Nationwide would have found the case. And I've been checking at least once a week since I found out about the subpoena, so it would have popped up here anyway.

The kinds of scammers we frequently deal with here not only have convinced others that they're doing them a favor, but they've often convinced themselves of the same. They like to play up how they're standing up to some kind of injustice. Some even show up in court and try to represent other people. We had one guy who put a lien against China for a billion dollars. Or something. I won't mention his name (he's like Beetlejuice) and I can't even truly recall his warped reasoning.

Anyway, at the end of the day, it's not what we hear through third parties, what people say their intentions were, or even what anyone tries to predict - it's the documented actions that matter because it's the only thing that can be proven. I'm not sure what we'll see in the bankruptcy case, but I'll hit that docket weekly and make the files available to the victims. When the SEC/FBI move on NASI (and let's face it, how could they not?), we'll be making that available too.

[grimreaper]

Thought I'd repost link to SEC Subpoena:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByGptHV ... edit?pli=1

Note that they required documents back to Jan1. 2010..no further.

BTW the subpoena power of the SEC was given a HUGE SHOT in the arm back in 2010>>

http://www.law360.com/articles/186829/s ... oena-power

If NASI drags their feet on producing documentation they will get a court order the next day!

“Instead, they will simply need approval from their senior supervisor,” Khuzami said in the August 2009 speech. “This means that if defense counsel resist the voluntary production of documents or witnesses, or fail to be complete and timely in responses or engage in dilatory tactics, there will very likely to be a subpoena on your desk the next morning.”

[snookered]

Sadly, this happens all the time. We are not alone.

http://www.businessinsider.com/ron-mcca ... or-2012-12

[The Observer]

Sadly, this happens all the time. We are not alone.

http://www.businessinsider.com/ron-mcca ... or-2012-12

Yes, a good article that pretty well sums up what typically happens in these scams:

But just before Thanksgiving in 2008, the checks stopped coming. Within a year, the company went under and the truth came out. In lawsuits filed against the company, investors claim the firm stopped working on properties in 2004 and used funds supplied by new investors to pay off older ones ––a textbook ponzi scheme worth $100 million.

False stories about investing in and flipping properties, and they all really did was just pay off the older investors with new investor money.

McCabe lost everything.

Note that he lost everything. There were no cash accounts, no assets, no clawbacks. He got nothing back out of a $100 million Ponzi scheme.

One guy was treated to a $16 million loss.

Again, nothing recovered.

I put in thousands of hours with the Arizona State Attorney General's office, with the FBI, with everyone who would listen to our story. I hired a law firm in Arizona and I brought as many of the investors as I could find.

We fought. We did everything we could. We filed complaints. We were deposed by the FBI. We tried with the SEC. The SEC said it was a state regulated investment. It was one agency after another passing the buck.

And for all of that effort, he recovered nothing.

Finally, my attorney said to me we can keep going, but they've got very deep pockets and they have deep pockets because they have your money and other people's money. You can spend every last dime you've got, but even if we prevail, you're going to get nothing.

Even his attorney had to tell him that that it would be impossible to recover.

Please keep this story (and others in mind) when other people keep telling you that you are going to recover monies. Or that you can initiate actions and/or spend more money that will improve your recovery chances. It simply isn't true.

[grimreaper]

Note that he lost everything. There were no cash accounts, no assets, no clawbacks. He got nothing back out of a $100 million Ponzi scheme.
Again, nothing recovered.




Please keep this story (and others in mind) when other people keep telling you that you are going to recover monies. Or that you can initiate actions and/or spend more money that will improve your recovery chances. It simply isn't true.

You don't KNOW if there were clawbacks in this case. Perhaps he didn't qualify?? Also, there may have not been ANY investors with profits which would be subject to clawbacks.
In any event you>>Can't compare this case with NASI Ponzi. If NASI is deemed to be a PONZI (I say slam dunk), then there are those who 1) Will qualify for a clawback and 2) There WILL be those subject to a clawback. More false reasoning being peddled here