Are social security cards mandatory?

[Patriotdiscussions]

Just wanting to know if ss cards are required to live and work here, or if we don't need them at all.

If we do not need them, anyone know the law to revoke them?

[AndyK]

Borderline interesting multi=part question.

First, let's forget about Social Security Cards. In general, they aren't necessary for anything. I lost my original card many decades ago and haven't hade a single related problem since then.

Now to the actual issur: Social Security NUMBER.

Question part 1: "if ss cards are required to live ... here"
Simple answer: No. Thousands of people live in the United States without SSNs. For example, ignoring young children who have not yet received a SSN, there are many foreigners who have taken up abode within the United States who neither have nor need a SSN.

Question part 2: "ss cards are required to ... work here"
In general, no. BUT anyone who works (i.e. is employed or conducts a business -- with the exception of foreign embassy staff -- is required to have some form of taxpayer identification number. This could be a SSN or one of the several other identifiers issued by the government. Absent one of those, an employer is in violation of several laws if he hires or does business with someoine. Employers and businesses are required to report various things to the SSA and IRS and those reports must be associated with a legitimate identifying number.

Overlooked question: What about young children
When filing a federal (and some ststes') tax return, a SSN (or equivalent) must be provided for each claimed dependant child. Otherwise, the deduction will be disallowed and things such as EITC cannot be claimed.

Revoking:
Can't be done. Once a SSN remains with the person forever -- even after death. Even if someone formally, legally expatriates, their SSN is still associated with them. When a person dies, the SSN is never reissued to anyone else.

Side point. It is possible to live in the United States without a SSN or equivalent government-issued identifier. All that is necessary is to work only in the underground cash economy, never apply for a drivers' license, never purchase a home, never rent an apartment, never participate in any aspect of the health care system, never obtain any education outside of home-schooling, and never have a credit card or any form of bank loan.

[Famspear]

Just wanting to know if ss cards are required to live and work here, or if we don't need them at all.

If we do not need them, anyone know the law to revoke them?

Let's be precise.

I have never once had an employer ask to see my Social Security card. I know of no law that requires that you "have" one in order to "work here" or to "live here." I don't even know where mine is (in a box somewhere in my garage, I think).

You yourself cannot "revoke" your Social Security card -- for the simple reason that you're not the one who issued it. The Social Security Administration issued the card.

What I think you might mean is: Are you required to have a Social Security ACCOUNT NUMBER in order to work? And the answer there is also technically NO. You could legally work for free for someone, and there would be no such requirement.

But Internal Revenue Code Section 6109(a)(1) provides:

Any person required under the authority of this title to make a return, statement, or other document shall include in such return, statement, or other document such identifying number as may be prescribed for securing proper identification of such person.

Section 6109(d):

The social security account number issued to an individual for purposes of section 205(c)(2)(A) of the Social Security Act shall, except as shall otherwise be specified under regulations of the Secretary [of the Treasury or his delegate], be used as the identifying number for such individual for purposes of this title.

And 26 C.F.R. section 6109-1(a)(1)(ii)(A):

(A) Except as otherwise provided in paragraphs (a)(1)(ii)(B) and (D) of this section, an individual required to furnish a taxpayer identifying number must use a social security number.

And 26 C.F.R. section 301.6109-1(b)(1):

Every U.S. person who makes under this title a return, statement, or other document must furnish its own taxpayer identifying number as required by the forms and the accompanying instructions. A U.S. person whose number must be included on a document filed by another person must give the taxpayer identifying number so required to the other person on request. For penalties for failure to supply taxpayer identifying numbers, see sections 6721 through 6724.

Internal Revenue Code section 6723:

In the case of a failure by any person to comply with a specified information reporting requirement on or before the time prescribed therefor, such person shall pay a penalty of $50 for each such failure, but the total amount imposed on such person for all such failures during any calendar year shall not exceed $100,000.

[Famspear]

From Treasury Regulation, 26 C.F.R. sec. 31.6011(b)-2(b)(1) (in part):

(1) Information to be furnished to employer. --An employee shall, on the day on which he enters the employ of any employer for wages, comply with the provisions of subdivision (i), (ii), (iii), or (iv) of this subparagraph [ . . . ]

(i) Employee who has account number card. --If the employee has been issued an account number card by the Social Security Administration and has the card available, the employee shall show it to the employer.

(ii) Employee who has number but card not available. --If the employee does not have available the account number card issued to him by the Social Security Administration but knows what his account number is, and what his name is, exactly as shown on such card, the employee shall advise the employer of such number and name. Care must be exercised that the employer is correctly advised of such number and name......

[Famspear]

What if the employee doesn't have his card and doesn't remember his number? Here is more from 26 C.F.R. sec. 31.6011(b)-2(b)(1) (in part):

(iv) Employee who is unable to furnish number or receipt. --If an employee is unable to comply with the requirement of subdivision (i), (ii), or (iii) of this subparagraph, the employee shall furnish to the employer a statement in writing, signed by the employee, setting forth the date of the statement, the employee's full name, present address, date and place of birth, father's full name, mother's full name before marriage, and the employee's sex, including a statement as to whether the employee has previously filed an application on Form SS-5 and, if so, the date and place of such filing. The information required by this subdivision shall be furnished on Form SS-5, if a copy of Form SS-5 is available. The furnishing of such a Form SS-5 or other statement by the employee to the employer does not relieve the employee of his obligation to make an application on Form SS-5 and file it with a district office of the Social Security Administration as required by paragraph (a) of this section......

[Famspear]

So, one question we could ask is: To what extent would the following provision apply to an employee who willfully refuses to provide the employer with the employee's social security number?

Any person required under this title to [ . . . . ] supply any information, who willfully fails to [ . . . . ] supply such information, at the time or times required by law or regulations, shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $25,000 ($100,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, together with the costs of prosecution. [ . . . . ]

--from Internal Revenue Code section 7203.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Just wanting to know if ss cards are required to live and work here, ...

No. There are millions of people living and working here without them.

If we do not need them, anyone know the law to revoke them?

There is no law to "revoke" them.

[JamesVincent]

As a personal note I have needed not only my SS card pretty regularly but also my kids SS cards and I need the numbers themselves on a pretty regular basis. My son receives disability so I am in contact with Social Security on an almost monthly basis sometimes. Two of my kids have MedicAid, needed their cards and my cards to apply and continually need them to renew. When I went on unemployment I needed my card again. When I have opened bank accounts over the last 10 years or so I have needed mine and needed the kids when I opened accounts in their name. I have needed their SSNs every year they have been in school and mine as well. When we moved into the new house and turned the utilities on in my name I needed my SSN. Every job I have had in the past decade or more has required my SSN, even if I was a contractor, for my 1099.

Anytime you make a change that may affect your credit more then likely you will be required to provide your SSN, if not your card. Yes, you can technically live without an SSN, my uncle did for 50 years or so, but you will not own anything, you will not have a bank account, you will not have a normal job, or even a contract position with a company, you will not be able to leave the country (was told SS cards were required to get a passport when I looked into getting passports for me and the kids) or get, more technically, back into the country, and you will not be eligible for any benefits at all through any government, state or federal.

The answer to your question is: No, the card is not mandatory. You could go through your adult life without using either the number or the card. I personally know people that have. But you will have nothing that means anything. And have no ability to change that.

[Arthur Rubin]

Just wanting to know if ss cards are required to live and work here, or if we don't need them at all.

If we do not need them, anyone know the law to revoke them?

Let's be precise.

I have never once had an employer ask to see my Social Security card. I know of no law that requires that you "have" one in order to "work here" or to "live here." I don't even know where mine is (in a box somewhere in my garage, I think).

The Social Security card is one of the proofs of authorization to work required for the employer to fill out form I-9. All my jobs since 9-11 have been "sensitive", so I had to supply a copy of my birth certificate, which is also acceptable. The employer is not permitted to ask for a specific document, so it's correct to say that no employer has ever asked for my SS card, but I might have had to provide it.

As an aside, because the SS card can substitute for a birth certificate, have any of the crazies tried using the SS card as indication of a bond? Just curious.

[LPC]

The requirement for a Social Security number is covered by the Tax Protester FAQ, which cites many of the statutes and regulations cited above, as well as several court decisions.

[Patriotdiscussions]

Just wanting to know if ss cards are required to live and work here, or if we don't need them at all.

If we do not need them, anyone know the law to revoke them?

Let's be precise.

I have never once had an employer ask to see my Social Security card. I know of no law that requires that you "have" one in order to "work here" or to "live here." I don't even know where mine is (in a box somewhere in my garage, I think).

You yourself cannot "revoke" your Social Security card -- for the simple reason that you're not the one who issued it. The Social Security Administration issued the card.

What I think you might mean is: Are you required to have a Social Security ACCOUNT NUMBER in order to work? And the answer there is also technically NO. You could legally work for free for someone, and there would be no such requirement.

But Internal Revenue Code Section 6109(a)(1) provides:

Any person required under the authority of this title to make a return, statement, or other document shall include in such return, statement, or other document such identifying number as may be prescribed for securing proper identification of such person.

Section 6109(d):

The social security account number issued to an individual for purposes of section 205(c)(2)(A) of the Social Security Act shall, except as shall otherwise be specified under regulations of the Secretary [of the Treasury or his delegate], be used as the identifying number for such individual for purposes of this title.

And 26 C.F.R. section 6109-1(a)(1)(ii)(A):

(A) Except as otherwise provided in paragraphs (a)(1)(ii)(B) and (D) of this section, an individual required to furnish a taxpayer identifying number must use a social security number.

And 26 C.F.R. section 301.6109-1(b)(1):

Every U.S. person who makes under this title a return, statement, or other document must furnish its own taxpayer identifying number as required by the forms and the accompanying instructions. A U.S. person whose number must be included on a document filed by another person must give the taxpayer identifying number so required to the other person on request. For penalties for failure to supply taxpayer identifying numbers, see sections 6721 through 6724.

Internal Revenue Code section 6723:

In the case of a failure by any person to comply with a specified information reporting requirement on or before the time prescribed therefor, such person shall pay a penalty of $50 for each such failure, but the total amount imposed on such person for all such failures during any calendar year shall not exceed $100,000.

What about 6274?
(a) Reasonable cause waiver
No penalty shall be imposed under this part with respect to any failure if it is shown that such failure is due to reasonable cause and not to willful neglect.

Also 26 cfr 301.6109-1 states

You can request the number, but if not given,then attach an affidavit on forms stating as much.

[Patriotdiscussions]

Found this on ssa.gov
http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1905.htm
§ 404.1905. Termination of agreements.

Each agreement shall contain provisions for its possible termination. If an agreement is terminated, entitlement to benefits and coverage acquired by an individual before termination shall be retained. The agreement shall provide for notification of termination to the other party and the effective date of termination.

Found the cfr link as well
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/20/404.1905

[Patriotdiscussions]

Just wanting to know if ss cards are required to live and work here, or if we don't need them at all.

If we do not need them, anyone know the law to revoke them?

Let's be precise.

I have never once had an employer ask to see my Social Security card. I know of no law that requires that you "have" one in order to "work here" or to "live here." I don't even know where mine is (in a box somewhere in my garage, I think).

The Social Security card is one of the proofs of authorization to work required for the employer to fill out form I-9. All my jobs since 9-11 have been "sensitive", so I had to supply a copy of my birth certificate, which is also acceptable. The employer is not permitted to ask for a specific document, so it's correct to say that no employer has ever asked for my SS card, but I might have had to provide it.

As an aside, because the SS card can substitute for a birth certificate, have any of the crazies tried using the SS card as indication of a bond? Just curious.

I thought the i-9 was for agro type companies and employees?

§ 274a.2 Verification of identity and employment authorization.
(a) General. This section establishes requirements and procedures for compliance by persons or entities when hiring, or when recruiting or referring for a fee, or when continuing to employ individuals in the United States.
(1) Recruiters and referrers for a fee. For purposes of complying with section 274A(b) of the Act and this section, all references to recruiters and referrers for a fee are limited to a person or entity who is either an agricultural association, agricultural employer, or farm labor contractor (as defined in section 3 of the Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act, Pub. L. 97-470 (29 U.S.C. 1802)).
(2) Verification form. Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification Form, is used in complying with the requirements of this 8 CFR 274a.1—274a.11.


What do you make of the bolded part?

[Jeffrey]

Found this on ssa.gov
http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1905.htm
§ 404.1905. Termination of agreements.

Each agreement shall contain provisions for its possible termination. If an agreement is terminated, entitlement to benefits and coverage acquired by an individual before termination shall be retained. The agreement shall provide for notification of termination to the other party and the effective date of termination.

Ever hear that saying aobut a little knowledge being a dangerous thing?

Let's read what 20 CFR Part 404, Subpart T is about:

nder section 233 of the Social Security Act, the President may enter into an agreement establishing a totalization arrangement between the social security system of the United States and the social security system of a foreign country. An agreement permits entitlement to and the amount of old-age, survivors, disability, or derivative benefits to be based on a combination of a person's periods of coverage under the social security system of the United States and the social security system of the foreign country.

So what is 1905 talking about? Termination of agreements between the Social Security system of the US and those of foreign countries, not as you suggest, about terminating anything by individuals.

List of countries with which we have such agreements for context:

http://www.ssa.gov/international/agreem ... rview.html

[Number Six]

Laying aside what the law says, it is a royal pain to not have a social security number or make excuses for not furnishing an ss number for bank accounts, employment, vehicle registration, insurance and driver's licenses, and many other uses. It says on the card "not for identification purposes", and as much as you could try to argue privacy rights with entities that ask for an ss number, you will stick out like a sore thumb if you do not have the insecurity number to provide when doing all the things most people use them for. Plus those aware of various legal ruses to hide identity history will consider it a little suspicious if someone refuses to provide one for official uses, or says they don't have one.

[Jeffrey]

it is a royal pain to not have a social security number or make excuses for not furnishing an ss number

I think Pulp Fiction probably put it more succinctly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCB42DDDXPI

You've decided to be a bum. Just like those pieces of shit out there who beg for change, sleep in garbage bins and eat what I throw away. They got a name for that, Jules: it's called "a bum". And without a job, a residence or legal tender, that's exactly what you're going to be: a fucking bum.

[Patriotdiscussions]

Found this on ssa.gov
http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1905.htm
§ 404.1905. Termination of agreements.

Each agreement shall contain provisions for its possible termination. If an agreement is terminated, entitlement to benefits and coverage acquired by an individual before termination shall be retained. The agreement shall provide for notification of termination to the other party and the effective date of termination.

Ever hear that saying aobut a little knowledge being a dangerous thing?

Let's read what 20 CFR Part 404, Subpart T is about:

nder section 233 of the Social Security Act, the President may enter into an agreement establishing a totalization arrangement between the social security system of the United States and the social security system of a foreign country. An agreement permits entitlement to and the amount of old-age, survivors, disability, or derivative benefits to be based on a combination of a person's periods of coverage under the social security system of the United States and the social security system of the foreign country.

So what is 1905 talking about? Termination of agreements between the Social Security system of the US and those of foreign countries, not as you suggest, about terminating anything by individuals.

List of countries with which we have such agreements for context:

http://www.ssa.gov/international/agreem ... rview.html

Sorry you are correct, it took me 3 mins to read thru and find the right one

http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-0640.htm

[AndyK]

Another sandbagging.

1 - Ask a relatively innocent, albeit borderline inane, question.

2 - Wait for responses which clearly and accurately answer the question in terms of law.

3 - Come back with what was originally intended -- irrelevant (although good-looking) legal citations, out of context law, and deliberate misinterpretations of other material.

If it weren't for the possibility that others might read the posts without them being appropriately refuted, explained, or debunked; the proper thing to do would be to delete all posts after the original question was asked and answered and then lock the thread.

[Judge Roy Bean]

The proper thing to do is to not waste electrons on more than a perfunctory and suitable answer to an inanity.

Let the fool keep making the hole deeper.

[Pottapaug1938]

Another sandbagging.

1 - Ask a relatively innocent, albeit borderline inane, question.

2 - Wait for responses which clearly and accurately answer the question in terms of law.

3 - Come back with what was originally intended -- irrelevant (although good-looking) legal citations, out of context law, and deliberate misinterpretations of other material.

If it weren't for the possibility that others might read the posts without them being appropriately refuted, explained, or debunked; the proper thing to do would be to delete all posts after the original question was asked and answered and then lock the thread.

This is nothing more than more of the same from this clown. He comes onto the forum, playing the innocent and "just asking..."; but he soon reveals his true colors, and shows that while he cam mine out-of-context quotes like the best which Planet Merrill and Sui Juris have to offer, he shows that he responds to the facts only with irrelevancies, new questions or with responses which essentially say "la-la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you".