Are social security cards mandatory?

[JamesVincent]

The simple, easy to understand, color by the numbers answer is no, a social security card is not mandatory. Unless you want to have a life. Then it's necessary. And keep in mind that is if you are an adult. If you are a child at this point in time it is mandatory just to be able to go to public schools. I have had to provide my kid's SSNs every year they have been in school in two different states. May not have to provide the card itself but definitely the number.

[Patriotdiscussions]

Schools often ask for a child’s social security number as a matter of policy or habit. There is no law requiring a student to have a social security number to participate in public or private school. In fact, the law prohibits such a requirement. Section 7 of Public Law 93-579, as enacted by the Congress of the United States reads that:

(a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual's refusal to disclose his social security account number.

When you complete an enrollment application for your child, leave any space that asks for a social security number blank. If they ask for a social security number, tell the school that neither you nor your child has one.

Serve a copy of the Notice Regarding Disclosure of Social Security Number card, provided at the beginning of this section on the person receiving the application if they tell you that they cannot process your application. This serves to notify them that they will be held personally and criminally liable for violating the law and for violating your rights. Given this notice, they will usually process the enrollment.

[Patriotdiscussions]

The simple, easy to understand, color by the numbers answer is no, a social security card is not mandatory. Unless you want to have a life. Then it's necessary. And keep in mind that is if you are an adult. If you are a child at this point in time it is mandatory just to be able to go to public schools. I have had to provide my kid's SSNs every year they have been in school in two different states. May not have to provide the card itself but definitely the number.

Have any of you read and or rebutted the social security not required policy Manuel?

[Famspear]

Have any of you read and or rebutted the social security not required policy Manuel?

There is no such thing as "the social security not required policy Manuel" [sic].

[Patriotdiscussions]

Have any of you read and or rebutted the social security not required policy Manuel?

There is no such thing as "the social security not required policy Manuel" [sic].

I wish you would of told me that before I read all 268 pages of it then.

http://www.macquirelatory.com/social%20 ... manuel.pdf

[Famspear]

....When you complete an enrollment application for your child, leave any space that asks for a social security number blank. If they ask for a social security number, tell the school that neither you nor your child has one.

Serve a copy of the Notice Regarding Disclosure of Social Security Number card, provided at the beginning of this section on the person receiving the application if they tell you that they cannot process your application. This serves to notify them that they will be held personally and criminally liable for violating the law and for violating your rights. Given this notice, they will usually process the enrollment.

I'm not sure that it's a "criminal offense" for someone to ask for a Social Security Number. In any case, there is nothing in Section 7 itself that imposes any criminal liability. Here's the full text of section 7:

SEC. 7. (a) (1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual's refusal to disclose his social security account number.

(2) the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not apply with respect to—

(A) any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or

(B) the disclosure of a social security number to any Federal, State, or local agency maintaining a system of records in existence and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was required under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to verify the identity of an individual.

(b) Any Federal, State, or local government agency which requests an individual to disclose his social security account number shall inform that individual whether that disclosure is mandatory or voluntary, by what statutory or other authority such number is solicited, and what uses will be made of it.

--Section 7 of the Privacy Act of 1974, Pub. L. No. 93-579, 88 Stat. 1896, 1909 (Dec. 31, 1974).

I would agree that people are making waaaayyyy too much use of Social Security Numbers as a means of identification. Whether such use is a "crime" in any given case is a separate issue.

[Famspear]

Have any of you read and or rebutted the social security not required policy Manuel?

There is no such thing as "the social security not required policy Manuel" [sic].

I wish you would of told me that before I read all 268 pages of it then.

http://www.macquirelatory.com/social%20 ... manuel.pdf

No, that's a different book. Obviously, you don't know the difference between "Manuel" and "Manual."

EDIT: And neither did the person who created that link....



Seriously, PD, you sorta walked right into that one.

More to the point: If you have a point to make, then MAKE it.

Make it short; make it sweet.

The rest of us are not here to "rebut" every statement in a 200 plus page manual for you. I might just as well ask you to "rebut" all the approximately 5,000 pages of the Internal Revenue Code.

[Patriotdiscussions]

The simple, easy to understand, color by the numbers answer is no, a social security card is not mandatory. Unless you want to have a life. Then it's necessary. And keep in mind that is if you are an adult. If you are a child at this point in time it is mandatory just to be able to go to public schools. I have had to provide my kid's SSNs every year they have been in school in two different states. May not have to provide the card itself but definitely the number.

DOJ says that it is not required....

Social Security Numbers.
 Some school districts request a student’s social security number during enrollment to use as a student identification number. If a school district requests a student’s social security number, it must: (1) inform you and your child that providing it is voluntary and that refusing to provide it will not bar your child from enrolling in or attending school, and (2) explain for what purpose the number will be used.
 A school district may not prevent your child from enrolling in or attending school if you choose not to provide your child’s social security number.
 A school district may not require you to provide your own social security number in order for your child to enroll in or attend school.

http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/edu/do ... erfact.pdf

[Patriotdiscussions]

Messed up post


File Criminal Charges
Many times the unenumerated are unknowingly victims of a crime. The most notable example of this is when someone tells you that you must have, or you must provide a social security number because it is the law. Most often the statement that “it is the law” is a criminal violation of the law, which if proven, could subject the person who said it to fines and jail.

For example 18 USC §242 and 42 USC §1983 provides that:
Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States,... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both;

42 USC §1983 further provides that a violator “shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress.”

And 42 USC §408 provides that:
Whoever... (8) discloses, uses, or compels the disclosure of the social security number of any person in violation of the laws of the United States; shall be guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

If these crimes are committed against you, and you can prove it, then you need to talk to your local district attorney about filing a criminal complaint. If your evidence has merit, then the local district attorney is legally obligated to pursue the case.

[AndyK]

Have any of you read and or rebutted the social security not required policy Manuel?

How about YES and NO ?

Read it some time ago.
Determined it was a salad-shooter assemblage of half truths, misquotes and outright misrepresentations.
Failed to see any attribution to any author.

Clearly not a government publication. (The government is very careful about using spelling checkers and grammatical review AND always includes the official government identification number on every published document.)

Just another sovereignoramus attempt to achieve self-inportance and to mislead people down the rabbit hole.

Next time you want comments on a citation or quotation, please make sure it is a legitimate source.

But then, you got it off the Internet, so it MUST be true. Bonjour.

[Patriotdiscussions]

No, that's a different book. Obviously, you don't know the difference between "Manuel" and "Manual."

EDIT: And neither did the person who created that link....



Seriously, PD, you sorta walked right into that one.

More to the point: If you have a point to make, then MAKE it.

Make it short; make it sweet.

The rest of us are not here to "rebut" every statement in a 200 plus page manual for you. I might just as well ask you to "rebut" all the approximately 5,000 pages of the Internal Revenue Code.

• Can you show me the law that requires a person to obtain a social security number

[Patriotdiscussions]

Have any of you read and or rebutted the social security not required policy Manuel?

How about YES and NO ?

Read it some time ago.
Determined it was a salad-shooter assemblage of half truths, misquotes and outright misrepresentations.
Failed to see any attribution to any author.

Clearly not a government publication. (The government is very careful about using spelling checkers and grammatical review AND always includes the official government identification number on every published document.)

Just another sovereignoramus attempt to achieve self-inportance and to mislead people down the rabbit hole.

Next time you want comments on a citation or quotation, please make sure it is a legitimate source.

But then, you got it off the Internet, so it MUST be true. Bonjour.

I understand that, could you perhaps give an example of these half truths contained in it, every thing statute wise they quote surely checks out.

[LPC]

I understand that, could you perhaps give an example of these half truths contained in it, every thing statute wise they quote surely checks out.

"Surely" looks like an assumption to me. Have you actually checked out the statutes cited? Or are you just guessing?

Meanwhile, have you read or rebutted the information on Social Security numbers at the Tax Protester FAQ? If not, why not? It's much shorter than your "Manuel," only about two or three pages.

One of the things I just noticed is that, according to the SSA, an SSN might be required for a child to participate in a school lunch program. So yes, you can refuse to provide an SSN when enrolling a child in school, but you might also be waiving any right to a subsidized lunch for the child. (Congratulations.)

[JamesVincent]

Remember the "unless you want a life" part? Out here the state has a scholarship program for children that begins once they reach 9th grade. To participate in the program you have to provide the child's SSN. Since my oldest girl is taking college classes while in high school I also registered her at the college, which also required her SSN.

Whether or not it is mandatory, I'm not going to argue and there is no point to arguing. It is necessary for anything you want to do in life if you want to have a full, interesting life. Anything that requires a credit check will require a SSN. Any grant for college will require a SSN (will also require that you have filed your taxes or the person who claimed you on their tax return). To buy a house or car will require one, to rent a house often will require one (I didn't need it when I rented the new house but I also provided several references, some of which did), to get a passport requires one (and requires the actual card, not just the number), to apply for any governmental benefits, such as social security (go figure), any type of cash benefits, requires one. When I have to talk to SS about my son's disability the first thing they ask for is his SSN and mine. Any bank account I have ever opened has required one. Enlisting in the military and getting a security clearance required one (after 9/11, can't remember if it was necessary before).

Again, the answer is: no, it is not mandatory to have one. But it is necessary to do many things in life and, without one, you will not be able to do a lot in life. Especially since 9/11.

[JamesVincent]

One of the things I just noticed is that, according to the SSA, an SSN might be required for a child to participate in a school lunch program. So yes, you can refuse to provide an SSN when enrolling a child in school, but you might also be waiving any right to a subsidized lunch for the child. (Congratulations.)

It is required for the school to be able to get Federal grants for the school lunch program. It is also needed for any Federal money that the school may get. So if you don't provide it the school will not get any money for the child from that grant. And, no, the child will not get subsidized lunch or breakfast if you do not provide their SSN.

[rogfulton]

But then, you got it off the Internet, so it MUST be true. Bonjour.

ROFLMFAO

[rogfulton]

Enlisting in the military and getting a security clearance required one (after 9/11, can't remember if it was necessary before).

Yes, it was necessary. I got my initial clearance in 1983. It included a three hour interview with the FBI because I had to answer 'Y' to one of the crime questions. Luckily, no interviews on subsequent renewals.

[ontobserver]

I understand that, could you perhaps give an example of these half truths contained in it, every thing statute wise they quote surely checks out.

As others have pointed out to you several times before, you have to read everything around the mined quotes, but since you don't seem to have the capacity to do that, lets walk through one.

On Page 13 of the "manual", snippets of 26 CFR 31.6011(b)-2 http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/26/31.6011%28b%29-2 are included. The first thing that should jump out at you is that there are sections that have been omitted, but these couldn't be important could they? Oh wait, the first omitted part includes the Employee's obligation to obtain an SS number.

(iv) Employee who is unable to furnish number or receipt. If an employee is unable to comply with the requirement of paragraph (b)(1)(i), (ii), or (iii) of this section, the employee shall furnish to the employer a statement in writing, signed by the employee, setting forth the date of the statement, the employee's full name, present address, date and place of birth, father's full name, mother's full name before marriage, and the employee's sex, including a statement as to whether the employee has previously filed an application on Form SS-5 and, if so, the date and place of such filing. The information required by this subdivision shall be furnished on Form SS-5, if a copy of Form SS-5 is available. The furnishing of such a Form SS-5 or other statement by the employee to the employer does not relieve the employee of his obligation to make an application on Form SS-5 and file it with a district office of the Social Security Administration as required by paragraph (a) of this section. The foregoing provisions of this subdivision are not applicable to an employee engaged exclusively in the performance of domestic service in a private home of his employer not on a farm operated for profit, or in the performance of agricultural labor, if the services are performed for an employer other than an employer required to file returns of the taxes imposed by the Federal Insurance Contributions Act with the office of the United States Internal Revenue Service in Puerto Rico. However, such employee shall advise the employer of his full name and present address.

So the employee is obligated to make an application for a SS number on Form SS-5 and file it with a district office of the Social Security Administration.

The second omitted section:

(3) Account number unknown when return is filed. In any case in which the employee's account number is for any reason unknown to the employer at the time the employer's return is filed for any return period with respect to which the employer is required to report the wages paid to such employee—
(i) If employee has shown receipt for application. If the employee has shown to the employer, as provided in paragraph (b)(1)(iii) of this section, a receipt issued to him by an office of the Social Security Administration acknowledging that an application for an account number has been received from the employee, the employer shall enter on the return, with the entry with respect to the employee, the name and address of the employee exactly as shown on the receipt, the expiration date of the receipt, and the address of the issuing office.
(ii) If employee furnished Form SS-5 or statement. If the employee has furnished information to the employer as provided in paragraph (b)(1)(iv) of this section, the employer shall prepare a copy of the Form SS-5 or statement furnished by the employee and attach the copy to the return.
(iii) If employee did not furnish receipt, Form SS-5, or statement. If neither paragraph (c)(3)(i) nor (ii) of this section is applicable, the employer shall, except as provided in paragraph (c)(4) of this section, attach to the return a Form SS-5 or statement, signed by the employer, setting forth as fully and clearly as practicable the employee's full name, his present or last known address, date and place of birth, father's full name, mother's full name before marriage, the employee's sex, and a statement as to whether an application for an account number has previously been filed by the employee and, if so, the date and place of such filing. The employer shall also insert in such Form SS-5 or statement an explanation of why he has not secured from the employee the information referred to in paragraph (b)(1)(iv) of this section and shall insert the word “Employer” as part of his signature.

So if the employee doesn't have an SS number at that time, you can bet one is going to be assigned soon thereafter.

The "manual" also goes on to quote

(6) Prospective employees. While not mandatory, it is suggested that the employer advise any prospective employee who does not have an account number of the requirements of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section.

Its true, that employers are not required to ask "prospective employees" for a social security number, but if that "prospective employee" becomes an "employee", an SS number will be required or assigned.

[Patriotdiscussions]

I understand that, could you perhaps give an example of these half truths contained in it, every thing statute wise they quote surely checks out.

As others have pointed out to you several times before, you have to read everything around the mined quotes, but since you don't seem to have the capacity to do that, lets walk through one.

On Page 13 of the "manual", snippets of 26 CFR 31.6011(b)-2 http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/26/31.6011%28b%29-2 are included. The first thing that should jump out at you is that there are sections that have been omitted, but these couldn't be important could they? Oh wait, the first omitted part includes the Employee's obligation to obtain an SS number.

(iv) Employee who is unable to furnish number or receipt. If an employee is unable to comply with the requirement of paragraph (b)(1)(i), (ii), or (iii) of this section, the employee shall furnish to the employer a statement in writing, signed by the employee, setting forth the date of the statement, the employee's full name, present address, date and place of birth, father's full name, mother's full name before marriage, and the employee's sex, including a statement as to whether the employee has previously filed an application on Form SS-5 and, if so, the date and place of such filing. The information required by this subdivision shall be furnished on Form SS-5, if a copy of Form SS-5 is available. The furnishing of such a Form SS-5 or other statement by the employee to the employer does not relieve the employee of his obligation to make an application on Form SS-5 and file it with a district office of the Social Security Administration as required by paragraph (a) of this section. The foregoing provisions of this subdivision are not applicable to an employee engaged exclusively in the performance of domestic service in a private home of his employer not on a farm operated for profit, or in the performance of agricultural labor, if the services are performed for an employer other than an employer required to file returns of the taxes imposed by the Federal Insurance Contributions Act with the office of the United States Internal Revenue Service in Puerto Rico. However, such employee shall advise the employer of his full name and present address.

So the employee is obligated to make an application for a SS number on Form SS-5 and file it with a district office of the Social Security Administration.

The second omitted section:

(3) Account number unknown when return is filed. In any case in which the employee's account number is for any reason unknown to the employer at the time the employer's return is filed for any return period with respect to which the employer is required to report the wages paid to such employee—
(i) If employee has shown receipt for application. If the employee has shown to the employer, as provided in paragraph (b)(1)(iii) of this section, a receipt issued to him by an office of the Social Security Administration acknowledging that an application for an account number has been received from the employee, the employer shall enter on the return, with the entry with respect to the employee, the name and address of the employee exactly as shown on the receipt, the expiration date of the receipt, and the address of the issuing office.
(ii) If employee furnished Form SS-5 or statement. If the employee has furnished information to the employer as provided in paragraph (b)(1)(iv) of this section, the employer shall prepare a copy of the Form SS-5 or statement furnished by the employee and attach the copy to the return.
(iii) If employee did not furnish receipt, Form SS-5, or statement. If neither paragraph (c)(3)(i) nor (ii) of this section is applicable, the employer shall, except as provided in paragraph (c)(4) of this section, attach to the return a Form SS-5 or statement, signed by the employer, setting forth as fully and clearly as practicable the employee's full name, his present or last known address, date and place of birth, father's full name, mother's full name before marriage, the employee's sex, and a statement as to whether an application for an account number has previously been filed by the employee and, if so, the date and place of such filing. The employer shall also insert in such Form SS-5 or statement an explanation of why he has not secured from the employee the information referred to in paragraph (b)(1)(iv) of this section and shall insert the word “Employer” as part of his signature.

So if the employee doesn't have an SS number at that time, you can bet one is going to be assigned soon thereafter.

The "manual" also goes on to quote

(6) Prospective employees. While not mandatory, it is suggested that the employer advise any prospective employee who does not have an account number of the requirements of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section.

Its true, that employers are not required to ask "prospective employees" for a social security number, but if that "prospective employee" becomes an "employee", an SS number will be required or assigned.

That's interesting. Tell me about what the court decided in the eeoc/Hanson case please?

[Patriotdiscussions]

In 1992, the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) filed an

action in U.S. District Court, Northern District of Texas, Dallas

Division (CA3-92-0169-T) against Information Systems Consulting

(I.S.C.) for firing Bruce Hanson (an employee) on 8-15-89 solely

because he would not provide the company with a SSN that he did not

have due to his religious beliefs.