ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[Tednewsom]

It's surprising to me that there's nothing in the papers-yet-about this issue/scheme/swindle/fraud (whatever it turns out to be). Would there be any value in someone making contact with an investigative reporter at, say, the Los Angeles Times?

I'm sure there would be, if it's someone at the LA Times who knows how to do a solid investigative report on financial and investment dramas, especially ones with not only local connections but nationwide ones. And his name would be Michael Hiltzik. Tell him I recommended you.

[Tednewsom]

The Bankruptcy Petition appears to be from three different people/claims, totaling only $324k, and does not appear to be from another business. Could this be three investors grouped together to file breach of contract due to Joel stopping their pmts?

The reason they petitioned for involuntary bankruptcy is not stated, so it may or may not be because of a missed payment or two. Maybe the three of them just wised up, found each other in the same financial boat, and realized they'd all been getting shafted. Not so complicated.

[webhick]

The Bankruptcy Petition appears to be from three different people/claims, totaling only $324k, and does not appear to be from another business. Could this be three investors grouped together to file breach of contract due to Joel stopping their pmts?

The reason they petitioned for involuntary bankruptcy is not stated, so it may or may not be because of a missed payment or two. Maybe the three of them just wised up, found each other in the same financial boat, and realized they'd all been getting shafted. Not so complicated.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but on page 3, all three claims state that the "Nature of Claim" is "Breach of Contract."

[grimreaper]

In order to establish any IRA acct you need a valid *custodian* to establish that account. Usually they are brokerage firms or banks. That's where the account is *held*. They're also responsible for issuing any documentation that the IRS would require. NASI cannot do this, they're simply the *investment* itself...like a stock certificate, etc. The custodian has NOTHING to do with the actual investment itself or it's performance.

[grimreaper]

The Bankruptcy Petition appears to be from three different people/claims, totaling only $324k, and does not appear to be from another business. Could this be three investors grouped together to file breach of contract due to Joel stopping their pmts?

The reason they petitioned for involuntary bankruptcy is not stated, so it may or may not be because of a missed payment or two. Maybe the three of them just wised up, found each other in the same financial boat, and realized they'd all been getting shafted. Not so complicated.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but on page 3, all three claims state that the "Nature of Claim" is "Breach of Contract."

It's pretty obvious, at least to ME, that the *breach of contract* is based on failure to issue monthly payments, which were *guaranteed* per the contract.

[snookered]

The Bankruptcy Petition appears to be from three different people/claims, totaling only $324k, and does not appear to be from another business. Could this be three investors grouped together to file breach of contract due to Joel stopping their pmts?

The reason they petitioned for involuntary bankruptcy is not stated, so it may or may not be because of a missed payment or two. Maybe the three of them just wised up, found each other in the same financial boat, and realized they'd all been getting shafted. Not so complicated.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but on page 3, all three claims state that the "Nature of Claim" is "Breach of Contract."

Actually, the petition says that it is for "Breach of Contract", which could either mean they didn't get their check (no one did), or perhaps they tried to sell their machines back, and that was not possible.

[ATM'd]

I just wanted to pass along a tip for a few of you who may be able to use it.

If you paid taxes on this income, you can at least get that money back. If you are among the few lucky "net winners", this will not apply to any net gains you have received.

The only tax year that is time-sensitive right now is 2010.

If you filed your 2010 return on time, before April 15, 2011, there is no recovery possible for the tax year 2010.

If you filed on extension, that is, on October 15, 2011, you can get get your taxes back for your 2010 returns ( state and federal ).

You have three years from when YOU FILED THE RETURN to file an amended tax return.

Just file an amended return BEFORE OCTOBER 15 not showing any NASI income as taxable income. The IRS and state treasurer will give you a refund

If challenged, you will say that that the NASI payment was a return of capital - and not income.

Of course, the 2011 - 2013 tax years are not an issue. You will get your tax money back if you file an amended return on time ( within 3 years of when you filed the applicable year's tax return)

Obviously you will want to review this with your own tax advisor, but time is of the essence for the 2010 tax year ( if you filed on extension).

[Judge Roy Bean]

I just wanted to pass along a tip for a few of you who may be able to use it.

If you paid taxes on this income, you can at least may get some or all of that money back. If you are among the few lucky "net winners", this will may not apply to any some of the net gains you have received.

This isn't legal advice, but as I understand the regulations, The only tax year that is time-sensitive right now is 2010.

If you filed your 2010 return on time, before April 15, 2011, there is no may not be any recovery possible for the tax year 2010.

If you filed on extension, that is, on October 15, 2011, you can get may be able to get your taxes back for your 2010 returns ( maybe both state and federal ).

In my opinion, You have three years from when YOU FILED THE RETURN to file an amended tax return.

I recommend you Just file an amended return BEFORE OCTOBER 15 not showing any NASI income as taxable income. The IRS and state treasurer will may give you a refund

If challenged, I would suggest you will say that that the NASI payment was a return of capital - and not income. But I'm a poster on an Internet site and have no responsibility for the outcome.

Of course, the 2011 - 2013 tax years are not may not be an issue. You will might get your tax money back if you file an amended return on time ( within 3 years of when you filed the applicable year's tax return)

Obviously you will want to review this with your own tax advisor, but time is of the essence for the 2010 tax year ( if you filed on extension).

There. Fixed it for you.

[AndyK]

If I recall corectly, the three-year limit does not apply to a deadline for filing an amended return. Instead it applies to receiving a refund of an overpayment.

Instead of reading unsubstantiated advice on an open Internet forum, check with a qualified tax advisor -- someone with training and experience well beyond that which can be found at a walk-in mall kiosk or seasonal store-front operation.

Or, browse the IRS Internet site for the authoritative publications regarding loss deductability and related carry-forward.

[dawnth]

Hello,

Yes, Joel forced Pensco on me as my only option when I first started. I actually did research as I wanted to find a company with lower fees and ideally in San Diego. When I did tell him about a company, he wouldn't allow me to go with them. This was early last year. The later in the year, he sent a letter suggesting we go to The Entrust Group and that he would no longer be working with Pensco.

When I asked why, he said, that Pensco required information that he believed was confidential to the investors.. (fishy) When I asked Pensco, they said, he would not provide necessary information.

With regards to what I am hoping to accomplish.. Get my cash assets out of there and back to my other Roth IRA. So, that's what I have to do, until something happens with the "asset" in question. Thank you for the information.

When I invested two years ago, Joel said that he had partnered with "Pensco Trust" for IRA investments.

From Pensco's website:

What we do (and don’t do)

As a self-directed IRA custodian, PENSCO is responsible for facilitating the initial investment and administering the assets in our clients’ accounts over the course of the assets lifetime. We manage the extensive recordkeeping required by the IRS and handle the reporting of contribution, distribution and investment activity within the account, including quarterly reports, processing of annual asset valuations and other documentation.

Investors and their advisors — not the IRA custodian — are solely responsible for evaluating the investment’s merits and suitability. PENSCO’s role is to determine if the investment may be administered in a self-directed IRA. We do not approve or endorse the actual investment.

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I post this to answer the question that has been asked through posts and PMs. "What reponsibility does the IRA custodian have for allowing fraudulent securities into your IRA?"

The short answer is usually, none, if it is a self directed IRA. And Pensco is.

Here is a good summary by the SEC: http://bit.ly/YIfFHa

[snookered]

Breaking News.... I have been told by a rather reliable source that Joel and Ed have been arrested and are going before the Grand Jury today.

Does anyone know if there is a way to confirm this?

[snookered]

Breaking News.... I have been told by a rather reliable source that Joel and Ed have been arrested and are going before the Grand Jury today.

Does anyone know if there is a way to confirm this?

I just checked the LA Sheriff's website for inmate info.... neither of them are in a LA Jail it appears.

Sorry for putting out false hope.

[Lost Income]

Could they be in another jail?

[wilsonbailey]

I/we am/are a victim of this scam (victims of our own greed). We followed a similar Ponzi scheme in Fresno a few years ago, HL Leasing (info can be obtained by googling John Otto HL Leasing. It was a multi-hundred million dollar scheme that ended up with John Otto committing suicide in a parking lot in Palm Springs/Palm Desert).

I have been watching the dynamics of the participants here on the board and see similar varying gamut of attitudes displayed by participants. My experience is that there is a lot of information disseminated on boards such as this, a large amount of which is incorrect with a little info that is correct. I have no answers, but I do have the experience to know that funds lost in a Ponzi scheme are treated differently in the tax code than other losses and at some point will be deductible from the bottom line taxes. (I believe, unfortunately, that if the ATMs were held in IRAs that the loss cannot be deducted--at lest that was the case of a colleague who lost the majority of his retirement because his HL Leasing contracts were purchased in his IRA.) It will be a bit of an accounting mess for those of us who have both the expenses of machine purchases (we had just "purchased" 8 machines for 96K two weeks ago--which, of course, is money out the window) as well as the depreciation of the machines and income from other. However, it was my observation of the HL Leasing case that until the court rules that the scheme is a Ponzi scheme and not other fraud, no tax filings can be done because of the difference in how Ponzi losses can be deducted. So, as mentioned by cooler heads on the board, it is necessary to wait for valid information to develop--follow and observe. The wheels of justice turn quite slowly, but they did include the living principals in that other scheme.

The one question in my mind is about the issue of joining the lawsuit that has been initiated. As someone had stated earlier on this forum, there is no favor shown by a receiver to a group by the time of their filing, their place in line. All appear to be treated as the same class. That appears to be true in the HL Leasing Ponzi case. The last information (April of this year) from one of the attorneys is that they had collected approximately $840,000 of the $114,000,000, and that the attorney charges were about $250,000.

[snookered]

Could they be in another jail?

I also checked the website for the LA Federal Jail. They aren't there either. This not knowing what the heck is going on is wearing on me.

[Lost Income]

SNOOKERED - Not knowing what is going on about anything and assuming some agency is working to help victims, is wearing on everyone. To top it off, I have info that could be helpful to the SEC & FBI, and they won't even reply to my emails or phone calls offering to discuss/provide this to them, so can't count on them to resolve anything before Joel & Ed unload all their assets. Someone in another post just suggested a name of an investigating journalist for the LA Times, so I think its time to get them involved and see what turns up. Otherwise It may be time to contact an attorney like the three women did to file a bk petition against NAS for breach of contract/stopping pmts.

[snookered]

SNOOKERED - Not knowing what is going on about anything and assuming some agency is working to help victims, is wearing on everyone. To top it off, I have info that could be helpful to the SEC & FBI, and they won't even reply to my emails or phone calls offering to discuss/provide this to them, so can't count on them to resolve anything before Joel & Ed unload all their assets. Someone in another post just suggested a name of an investigating journalist for the LA Times, so I think its time to get them involved and see what turns up. Otherwise It may be time to contact an attorney like the three women did to file a bk petition against NAS for breach of contract/stopping pmts.

I think contacting a reporter is a good idea. I don't think hiring an attorney at this point is. Why throw more good money after bad? At some point, the authorities will reach out to us. They just don't seem to be ready for that just yet. As difficult as it is, I think we just have to be patient.

[Tednewsom]

Mike Hiltzik, guys. LA Times' financial expert, Pulitzer-prize winning investigative reporter, and a friend.

If he's got the time and interest, he's the guy.

(No, I'm not taking a commission on every ATM investigator I'm selling.)

[Lost Income]

Thanks!! Unless some else has already contacted Mike at the LA Times, I'll be contacting him tomorrow.

[grimreaper]

Mike Hiltzik, guys. LA Times' financial expert, Pulitzer-prize winning investigative reporter, and a friend.

If he's got the time and interest, he's the guy.

(No, I'm not taking a commission on every ATM investigator I'm selling.)

If he's *a friend* show him this blog!