ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[webhick]

Well, someone faaaar upthread mentioned that you could buy new ATMs for $3k. For shits and giggles, let's say the real ATMs could be sold for that price, which they likely can't be. For the 235 ATMs, that's only $705,000. The vapor ATMs would be another $2,019,000. Of course, those vapor ATMs are actually owned by MobileMoney (not related to NASI) and I don't think that MobileMoney would appreciate their property being sold out from under them.

[Judge Roy Bean]

To reinforce what Observer has just said. This is now, and will remain, in all probability, an SEC receivership, which means the gov't and the court get to make the rules here, and one of the rules is that the investors/victims are ALL treated individually/equally/and all exactly the same. The investors/creditors will be contacted individually by the receiver, assigned a case number and dealt with exactly as everyone else will be. In other words NO favoritism or special considerations, so a lawyer isn't going to be of any use until it gets around to settlement time and you have a dispute about the final payout or payback, then you will need a lawyer, and your documents, and even then it is problematical. ...

Actually, the red part is not entirely true. At the risk of being redundant, again, you need advice from your own attorney and tax advisor. First, the receiver's agents/investigators do not represent you and can't give you legal advice. And part of their task is to ask questions and gather information about your personal financial matters. They may not see everyone as an innocent victim - particularly those who helped promote the scheme.

[grimreaper]

Well, someone faaaar upthread mentioned that you could buy new ATMs for $3k. For shits and giggles, let's say the real ATMs could be sold for that price, which they likely can't be. For the 235 ATMs, that's only $705,000. The vapor ATMs would be another $2,019,000. Of course, those vapor ATMs are actually owned by MobileMoney (not related to NASI) and I don't think that MobileMoney would appreciate their property being sold out from under them.

I think NASI actually owned 600 of it's own? Thus the 900 or so TOTAL.

[grimreaper]

Well, someone faaaar upthread mentioned that you could buy new ATMs for $3k. For shits and giggles, let's say the real ATMs could be sold for that price, which they likely can't be. For the 235 ATMs, that's only $705,000. The vapor ATMs would be another $2,019,000. Of course, those vapor ATMs are actually owned by MobileMoney (not related to NASI) and I don't think that MobileMoney would appreciate their property being sold out from under them.

I think NASI actually owned 600 of it's own? Thus the 900 or so TOTAL.

Here is the ORIGINAL SEC FILING in 1997. They owned ONE MACHINE THEN!

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/conta ... 000655.txt

Page 6:

Company owned ATM - The Company owns one ATM which is depreciated using
the straight-line method over its five year estimated useful life.

[webhick]

Well, someone faaaar upthread mentioned that you could buy new ATMs for $3k. For shits and giggles, let's say the real ATMs could be sold for that price, which they likely can't be. For the 235 ATMs, that's only $705,000. The vapor ATMs would be another $2,019,000. Of course, those vapor ATMs are actually owned by MobileMoney (not related to NASI) and I don't think that MobileMoney would appreciate their property being sold out from under them.

I think NASI actually owned 600 of it's own? Thus the 900 or so TOTAL.

The minutes for the TRO read otherwise (bolding added):

But the settlement reports from third-party ATM services identify only about 235 ATMs services for NASI. (Compl. ¶ 36.) Internal records claim ownership of about 673 ATMs at various Casey's Convenience Mart locations - an ATM at one store was sold to five different NASI investors - but in fact, every actual Casey's Convenience Mart ATM is owned by an unrelated company, MobileMoney, Inc.

It sounds like those 673 ATMs are just vapor.

[notorial dissent]

Actually, the red part is not entirely true. At the risk of being redundant, again, you need advice from your own attorney and tax advisor. First, the receiver's agents/investigators do not represent you and can't give you legal advice. And part of their task is to ask questions and gather information about your personal financial matters. They may not see everyone as an innocent victim - particularly those who helped promote the scheme.

What JRB said is entirely true. The receiver does not represent anyone but the government in this, and their job it to determine what happened and what is left, and make an "equitable" distribution. They aren't going to give legal advice or play favorites. What I may have been unclear on is that a lawyer isn't going to get you anywhere UNTIL the receiver makes their determinations, and then it would be a really good idea to speak with one, but it will be about the end results, not what the SEC is doing. You may well need a lawyer before you ever speak to the SEC, particularly if you were with them any length of time, it won't stop them asking questions or getting the information they want/need, but it may minimize your issues if there are any. There are a lot of ifs and ands and buts involved in something like this, which is why I keep repeating, get your documentation all together, get it copied, and keep the originals safe.

[grimreaper]

Well, someone faaaar upthread mentioned that you could buy new ATMs for $3k. For shits and giggles, let's say the real ATMs could be sold for that price, which they likely can't be. For the 235 ATMs, that's only $705,000. The vapor ATMs would be another $2,019,000. Of course, those vapor ATMs are actually owned by MobileMoney (not related to NASI) and I don't think that MobileMoney would appreciate their property being sold out from under them.

I think NASI actually owned 600 of it's own? Thus the 900 or so TOTAL.

The minutes for the TRO read otherwise (bolding added):

But the settlement reports from third-party ATM services identify only about 235 ATMs services for NASI. (Compl. ¶ 36.) Internal records claim ownership of about 673 ATMs at various Casey's Convenience Mart locations - an ATM at one store was sold to five different NASI investors - but in fact, every actual Casey's Convenience Mart ATM is owned by an unrelated company, MobileMoney, Inc.

It sounds like those 673 ATMs are just vapor.

OK..Thanks for that.

[Tednewsom]

Thanks for the kind words, everybody. Seeing these lying bastards finally cornered is gratifying. So is preventing further damage to innocent people. Seeing how smart and honest and diligent everyone else here has been, each with their own take and their own special knowledge and experience... I'm still in awe.

But boy oh boy is it bittersweet. I just wanted to protect one person from harm. Sorry if that sounds selfish -- those of you in a similar position know what I'm saying. Just one person, and had she listened and pulled out, got her hard-earned money away from these miserable thieves and ignored the soothing ministrations of a "friend" who kept assuring her, "Oh, Ted's just jealous, he doesn't know what he's talking about, they're the most brilliant and honest men I've ever met, here, why don't you buy another ATM?" -- I selfishly probably would've walked away and let everyone else suffer.

And in the end, she chose to believe her trusted "friend," and got wiped out. No amount of suffering for those responsible -- no prison time, crushing fines, financial karma or sleepless nights, all of which I wish on those responsible -- none of that will balance out the harm that was done.

[worried]

We haven't had the pleasure of reading SomeYuppie's frenetic fallacies in a long time,... but unfortunately for those who are gifted at oral BS, a written record allows calmer, slower analysis...

...
When I said "there are some issues that cannot really be confirmed" the biggest thing is, hey, the transaction count could be right, the amounts and business could be alright, it's just 5 other people own that same machine! That's something you can't really confirm which is a legitimate concern....

...
Internal records claim ownership of about 673 ATMs at various Casey's Convenience Mart
locations - an ATM at one store was sold to five different NASI investors - but in fact, every actual
Casey's Convenience Mart ATM is owned by an unrelated company, MobileMoney, Inc....

Wow... what a coincidence...

...
Once again, my only relationship to NAS is that I've been an investor for several years. I don't own or control NAS or any of its affiliates or employees nor am I related to someone, nor am I friends with someone....

I'm still having trouble believing this statement... I could go either way. But both SomeYuppie and BeverlyHillsMan both denied the existence of different prices... does that matter? If neither one of them are con-men of any sort, then:

BeverylyHillsMan is lucky he didn't give out his real name. Who in the hell would want to do business with such a self-righteous (but WRONG), pompous, ASS?!

SomeYuppie, ... I think SomeYuppie is probably safe and secure in his/her fantasy world no matter what happens...

[webhick]

Holy shit. Check your PMs.

Can I get my PM back now ?

The moderators talked about it and...nope.

[webhick]

Nationwideinvestor is now exhibiting troll behavior, by reporting a post and trying to communicate that way:

You commended read PM. Cannot read personal messages. No rights to do so. You need to get some information. There is no other way to communicate. No need to post this.

You can post just fine, so clearly you have ways to communicate. And the report button is for reporting posts that violate forum rules, not for trying to get around the fact that we removed your PM privileges for soliciting investors after being told not to use our forum to solicit.

If you do it again, I'm removing your ability to report posts. And it's not as easy as limiting your ability to PM, so don't think I do it lightly.

[webhick]

So I got a few posts on the NASI Victims blog, and put up a library.

It's a public blog so we should all be able to see it. Hopefully we can use it to collect documents and summarize information so it's a little easier for new victims to catch up. I'll be shutting down that useless Yahoo group after a week or so.

http://nasivictims.wordpress.com

I also summarized the TRO minutes as follows:

• Since 2013, NASI raised $123 million in investor funds.
• ATM revenue accounted for less than 2% of NASI’s actual revenue.
• NASI operated like a typical Ponzi, using new investor funds to pay the guaranteed return of 20% on the old investments.
• There were three NASI-affiliated companies involved with this scam, and Edward Wishner was the registered agent of all three. They were Oasis Studio Rentals, LLC., Oasis Studio Rentals #2, LLC., and Oasis Studio Rentals #3, LLC.
• NASI would charge $12k per ATM contract, the contracts ran for ten years. At the end of the ten years, the investor could have their ATM delivered to them, get a full refund of their initial investment or auto-renew the contract for three years. In the complaint, it stated that some investors were charged $19k for an ATM contract.
• The contract prohibited the investor from contacting the locations where the ATM was installed.
• NASI was not registered with the SEC for selling securities. But, per an SEC filing from 1998, ATM Holdings owned all the shares in NASI. ATM Holdings was another Joel/Ed company. The filing was revoked in 2007 for failing to file SEC reports and its corporate name with the state was revoked that same year.
• One investor asked how to audit the monthly revenue and was told that their check was their audit.
• NASI’s records listed more than 31k ATMs. Unfortunately, settlement reports only show 235 ATMs. NASI’s records also claim that they have 673 ATMs at Casey’s Convenience Mart locations, but it appears that Casey’s doesn’t have that many ATMs, and the ones they do have are owned by MobileMoney, a company unrelated to NASI.
• Of the fabled Casey’s ATM locations, one was sold to investors five times, with two within days of each other.
• Between April and June, about $23.7 million was deposited into NASI’s accounts. Almost $391k of that was ATM revenue, and nearly $18.5 million was new investor funds. During this same period, NASI paid out nearly $23.5 million to investors. It’s quite obvious that $391k in ATM revenue didn’t cover the $23.5 million going out, so new investor funds had to have been used to pay out old investments.
• It appears that NASI improperly transferred funds to those Oasis companies. From what I gathered, NASI would loan money to Oasis, then write off the debt later.
• In August, NASI bounced $3 million in checks to investors and had only $200k in the bank.
• They then opened new bank accounts at a different bank. About $3.8 million was deposited, of which $52k was ATM revenue and $3.36 million came from new investors. NASI paid out about $2 million to existing investors.
• A review of NASIs accounts indicate that since 2013 Edward Wishner withdrew almost $793.5k and Joel Gillis withdrew almost $208k from the Oasis accounts.
• Edward Wishner withdrew almost $100k in NASI funds for himself at the beginning of September, as NASI was collapsing.

[grimreaper]

So I got a few posts on the NASI Victims blog, and put up a library.

It's a public blog so we should all be able to see it. Hopefully we can use it to collect documents and summarize information so it's a little easier for new victims to catch up. I'll be shutting down that useless Yahoo group after a week or so.

http://nasivictims.wordpress.com

NICE! Thank you. You might want to add that a receiver has been appointed and his name.

[webhick]

I'm a little confused as to whether or not that receiver is for the bankruptcy or for the SEC. I can't find the SEC receiver's name in the paperwork

[notorial dissent]

It would have to be for the receivership as the bankruptcy has been effectively permanently stayed by the receivership.

It really won't matter much until the TRO is made permanent after the show cause hearing and the receivership is confirmed by the court.

[JamesVincent]

Holy shit. Check your PMs.

Can I get my PM back now ?

The moderators talked about it and...nope.

NationwideInvestor also did the exact same thing in the AOL answers page about NAS that was linked to earlier in the thread. I sent a message to the moderator of that group letting them know about what s/he had done here and recommended removing his solicitation.

[JamesVincent]

Thanks for the kind words, everybody. Seeing these lying bastards finally cornered is gratifying. So is preventing further damage to innocent people. Seeing how smart and honest and diligent everyone else here has been, each with their own take and their own special knowledge and experience... I'm still in awe.

Congratz on the title, well earned. You did what you thought was right Ted, it doesn't matter that it was for one or for many. And I don't think sticking your neck for another human being is considered selfish. Many times people aren't willing to do that little thing that can actually help, good to see and find others who do.

[imnewhere]

Clearly ones's recent (within 1 year) "profits" are at risk of "clawback" but what about any return of investment, especially if it was not long after the initial investment (within 3-6 months)?

Thoughts?

[Tednewsom]

The way I understand it, the "clawback" litmus test would be, "Have you made back your initial investment?" Since that takes about 5 years ($333 x 12=$3996/year; x5 years, $19980), if you only bought into the scam last year, you've still in the negative column and are owed money rather than owing.

(Three years if you got the bargain basement price of $12,000 per ghost machine.)

[imnewhere]

Tednewsome:
I apologize if I was not clear enough...my questions stated that the investment was, in fact, returned...your response does not take that into account.
Asked a different way: If someone were to have been fortunate enough to receive their investment back, would this distribution be subject to forfeiture?