ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[ATM'd]

Wednesday was another sad day in regard to NASI, as it was the day that I paid my 2013 income taxes.

To know that I was paying taxes on phantom income just about killed me. And, it was a lot. To think that I will have to do it again for 2014 adds insult to injury.

Dear Snookered - file an amended 2013 tax return right away excluding the NASI income and get your money back. The 1099 from NASI was fraudulent. You did not receive ATM "income". What you received was a "return of capital" and not taxable income. Obviously, work with your tax advisor on this. This comment will will apply differently if you are a "net winner". (In which case, it all comes down to calculating your "taxable basis" in the ATM's - too complicated to go into here).

To repeat: WORK WITH YOUR TAX ADVISOR. If you don't have one, get a CPA involved. Not a corner store tax preparer.

Moreover, you have 3 years from when you filed your original tax return to file an amended return and get these taxes refunded. So, if you did not file on extension, you have until April 15, 2015 to file an amended return for the 2011 tax year. Later if you filed on extension.

I had posted a note several weeks ago about this and hope people didn't miss out on this because they missed the three year deadline.

[snookered]

Thank you ATM'd for your Sage advice. I will look into this immediately.

[grimreaper]

Wednesday was another sad day in regard to NASI, as it was the day that I paid my 2013 income taxes.

To know that I was paying taxes on phantom income just about killed me. And, it was a lot. To think that I will have to do it again for 2014 adds insult to injury.

Dear Snookered - file an amended 2013 tax return right away excluding the NASI income and get your money back. The 1099 from NASI was fraudulent. You did not receive ATM "income". What you received was a "return of capital" and not taxable income. Obviously, work with your tax advisor on this. This comment will will apply differently if you are a "net winner". (In which case, it all comes down to calculating your "taxable basis" in the ATM's - too complicated to go into here).

To repeat: WORK WITH YOUR TAX ADVISOR. If you don't have one, get a CPA involved. Not a corner store tax preparer.

Moreover, you have 3 years from when you filed your original tax return to file an amended return and get these taxes refunded. So, if you did not file on extension, you have until April 15, 2015 to file an amended return for the 2011 tax year. Later if you filed on extension.

I had posted a note several weeks ago about this and hope people didn't miss out on this because they missed the three year deadline.

Don't assume he can do this yet. As I understand this, there will have to be a formal fraud judgment first and paperwork showing the actual loss. The money is still in his pocket as far as IRS is concerned.

[Lost Income]

Agreed, my tax accountant is waiting for a formal fraud confirmation before reviewing for a loss deduction and adjustments to previous depreciation and taxes.

[Arthur Rubin]

Wednesday was another sad day in regard to NASI, as it was the day that I paid my 2013 income taxes.

To know that I was paying taxes on phantom income just about killed me. And, it was a lot. To think that I will have to do it again for 2014 adds insult to injury.

Dear Snookered - file an amended 2013 tax return right away excluding the NASI income and get your money back. The 1099 from NASI was fraudulent. You did not receive ATM "income". What you received was a "return of capital" and not taxable income. Obviously, work with your tax advisor on this. This comment will will apply differently if you are a "net winner". (In which case, it all comes down to calculating your "taxable basis" in the ATM's - too complicated to go into here).

To repeat: WORK WITH YOUR TAX ADVISOR. If you don't have one, get a CPA involved. Not a corner store tax preparer.

Moreover, you have 3 years from when you filed your original tax return to file an amended return and get these taxes refunded. So, if you did not file on extension, you have until April 15, 2015 to file an amended return for the 2011 tax year. Later if you filed on extension.

I had posted a note several weeks ago about this and hope people didn't miss out on this because they missed the three year deadline.

I'm afraid you're wrong, unless "snookered" (and others) knew or should have known, by the end of 2013, that the income wasn't real. You need a tax advisor, but you can rarely amend prior-year tax returns based on what you've learned now.

Also, how can you have a "taxable basis" in a nonexistent ATM? And why should anyone (including the IRS) care. I've twice, on this thread, reported what I believe to be the proper reporting of "income", Ponzi losses, and clawbacks. I'm not going to repeat myself, except to note that (except in rare circumstances which do not apply here), the "ATM income", "return of capital", and theft losses, that you report on your 2013 tax return are only based on what you knew or should have known by the end of 2013.

[webhick]

I checked the bankruptcy docket today and it appears that it's effectively dead. The receiver's attorney filed a stipulation RE dismissalon the 16th and it looks like the creditors are on board with it.

This explains why NWI stopped pushing for the bankruptcy on the 15th.

[grimreaper]

I checked the bankruptcy docket today and it appears that it's effectively dead. The receiver's attorney filed a stipulation RE dismissalon the 16th and it looks like the creditors are on board with it.

This explains why NWI stopped pushing for the bankruptcy on the 15th.

SEC now in charge

[Lost Income]

Am I currently understanding the document posted on the SEC/NAS website, that the SEC currently has until Nov 10th to confirm fraud?

[webhick]

Am I currently understanding the document posted on the SEC/NAS website, that the SEC currently has until Nov 10th to confirm fraud?

That's definitely what it looks like.

[notorial dissent]

Not precisely. The origional Oct 27 Show Cause hearing has just been postponed, continued is the proper and used court term, until Nov 11, for, as the court says, "good and sufficient" reasons. The SEC has already proven to the court their prima facie case, this is for the other side to show why it isn't so. The usual reason(s) for this is either that the gov't has come up with more dirt(more likely), or needs more time to present a complete case, or the other side is dragging their feet, not complying, or having difficulties meeting the prior deadline(all of which are entirely possible). The fact that they've sealed the docket tells me there is more going on than they want out right now. All will be come clearer, and undoubtedly more entertaining, after the hearing.

What will happen at the hearing is that NASI and the "boys", through their attorneys, will attempt to show why the TRO and receivership should not be continued(i.e. that they're pure as the driven snow, never did anything wrong, it's all a big mistake-misunderstanding, etc, ad naseum), and the gov't will provide suitable rebuttal, if necessary. The end result will almost certainly be the making of the TRO permanent, the formalization and confirmation of the receiver and receivership, and whatever other housekeeping duties are necessary. I'm kind of expecting some further orders and broadening of the receivership.

If they run true to form, the next court appearance barring unusual circumstances will be in 3-6 months with a preliminary status report and plan of action.

[itzallgone]

Not precisely. The origional Oct 27 Show Cause hearing has just been postponed, continued is the proper and used court term, until Nov 11, for, as the court says, "good and sufficient" reasons. The SEC has already proven to the court their prima facie case, this is for the other side to show why it isn't so. The usual reason(s) for this is either that the gov't has come up with more dirt(more likely), or needs more time to present a complete case, or the other side is dragging their feet, not complying, or having difficulties meeting the prior deadline(all of which are entirely possible). The fact that they've sealed the docket tells me there is more going on than they want out right now. All will be come clearer, and undoubtedly more entertaining, after the hearing.

What will happen at the hearing is that NASI and the "boys", through their attorneys, will attempt to show why the TRO and receivership should not be continued(i.e. that they're pure as the driven snow, never did anything wrong, it's all a big mistake-misunderstanding, etc, ad naseum), and the gov't will provide suitable rebuttal, if necessary. The end result will almost certainly be the making of the TRO permanent, the formalization and confirmation of the receiver and receivership, and whatever other housekeeping duties are necessary. I'm kind of expecting some further orders and broadening of the receivership.

If they run true to form, the next court appearance barring unusual circumstances will be in 3-6 months with a preliminary status report and plan of action.

Well said. I think you hit the nail on the head, though I also think there could be a delay because the criminal investigation has started. I haven't heard anything or have nothing to back up my claim, but just a feeling. I obviously think the SEC is going to end up doing 99% of the investigation work for the FBI and Attorney General, but very possible they are trying to bring charges or present this to a Grand Jury. We shall see...

[notorial dissent]

Well, what certainly has been happening, and/or will be happening is that the auditors, and most likely in this case forensic accountants, have been going through everything they could get their hands on from NASI and looking at it very closely. At this point they should have a pretty fair idea about where some if not most of the NASI money went or ended up, which isn’t to say they may be able to recover it. They will certainly be going through everything they can, since this isn’t simply a case of a securities issue going belly up, but that there was securities fraud as well as general fraud involved here. I’m equally sure there will be a great deal of sharing of what the SEC finds and the FBI, IRS, and possibly Treasury, as this could have been a prime money laundering effort as well. A lot will depend on what they ultimately dig up, by I expect at the very minimum lots of securities charges. This should unravel a good deal more come the Show Cause Hearing.

[dawnth1]

Hello,

First off, I have found that some CPAs are not really familiar with this type of things. I have spoken with my tax guy, and I knew more than he did.. But I understand, I have to stay consult a tax attorney or find someone familiar with the information below.
I have been doing my research on the tax possibilities. The IRS has something in place for frauded investors.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rp-09-20.pdf

My understanding is that there are 2 options.
1. To take the safe Harbor and deduct theft losses based on certain rules and requirements for as long as 20 years after the fraud was acknowledged. If you invested your income into the same investment, you can actually add your phantom income to the principle theft loss, which is a big plus, but that will be a lot of organizing of paperwork and determining how much of your original investment income went into your later investments. I believe there is also an entitlement of a net operating loss carryback for 3 years as well, but I am still trying to understand what that means. (maybe for business)
I think with Safe harbor you have to waive the 3 year ability to amend your tax returns showing phantom income for a refund.
OR
2. To amend last 3 tax returns without the income and getting you tax paid back. In some cases, you will have earned interest on this refund.

If you do receive any recovery payments after your tax returns are filed, it will be considered income.

You choice will be is based on your own personal situation.

For example. I owned my "machines" for less than a year. My IRA machine for 11 months, and my 2 personal machines for about 4 months (yes I'm the net loser!) Since I never paid taxes on the income, its probably better for me to take the theft loss at 95% because I will not be using a 3rd party to attempt to recover. This will bring my tax income down significantly allowing me a bigger tax return. Any amount I cannot deduct will be applied to next years theft loss deduction, and so on. This will be a good option for those who still have other income and investments and the deduction will bring them into lower tax bracket.

Now, those who lost everything, and have nothing, and no real income that a deduction can help , the amending returns is probably best, at least you can get some back from taxes you paid, and have something in your pocket.

This was also a very information website: http://www.ustaxlawseminars.com/ponzi_presentation.pdf

Hope this helps clarify the possibilities.
PS: Can someone tell me where I can get NASI tax id? Thank you

[grimreaper]

Am I currently understanding the document posted on the SEC/NAS website, that the SEC currently has until Nov 10th to confirm fraud?

That's definitely what it looks like.

http://www.nasi-nationwideatm.com/wp-co ... 0-2014.pdf

2. Defendants’ and Relief Defendants’ declarations, affidavits, points and
authorities, or other submissions in opposition to the issuance of such an Order shall
be filed with the Court on or by October 28, 2014.
3. The SEC’s reply papers in support of the issuance of such an Order shall
be filed with the Court on or by November 3, 2014.
4. Defendants and Relief Defendants shall comply with the financial
accounting requirement set forth in Section X, pp. 7-8 of the September 30, 2014
Temporary Restraining Order on or by October 29, 2014.

Just a *formality* at this point and so they extended the date to show cause and invoke a PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION into Nov. NASI>>>DEAD MAN WALKING<<<.

[snookered]

Hello,

First off, I have found that some CPAs are not really familiar with this type of things. I have spoken with my tax guy, and I knew more than he did.. But I understand, I have to stay consult a tax attorney or find someone familiar with the information below.
I have been doing my research on the tax possibilities. The IRS has something in place for frauded investors.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rp-09-20.pdf

My understanding is that there are 2 options.
1. To take the safe Harbor and deduct theft losses based on certain rules and requirements for as long as 20 years after the fraud was acknowledged. If you invested your income into the same investment, you can actually add your phantom income to the principle theft loss, which is a big plus, but that will be a lot of organizing of paperwork and determining how much of your original investment income went into your later investments. I believe there is also an entitlement of a net operating loss carryback for 3 years as well, but I am still trying to understand what that means. (maybe for business)
I think with Safe harbor you have to waive the 3 year ability to amend your tax returns showing phantom income for a refund.
OR
2. To amend last 3 tax returns without the income and getting you tax paid back. In some cases, you will have earned interest on this refund.

If you do receive any recovery payments after your tax returns are filed, it will be considered income.

You choice will be is based on your own personal situation.

For example. I owned my "machines" for less than a year. My IRA machine for 11 months, and my 2 personal machines for about 4 months (yes I'm the net loser!) Since I never paid taxes on the income, its probably better for me to take the theft loss at 95% because I will not be using a 3rd party to attempt to recover. This will bring my tax income down significantly allowing me a bigger tax return. Any amount I cannot deduct will be applied to next years theft loss deduction, and so on. This will be a good option for those who still have other income and investments and the deduction will bring them into lower tax bracket.

Now, those who lost everything, and have nothing, and no real income that a deduction can help , the amending returns is probably best, at least you can get some back from taxes you paid, and have something in your pocket.

This was also a very information website: http://www.ustaxlawseminars.com/ponzi_presentation.pdf

Hope this helps clarify the possibilities.
PS: Can someone tell me where I can get NASI tax id? Thank you

I found this very helpful! Thank you Dawn.

[webhick]

I was just checking the docket for the SEC case before turning in (huge mistake, BTW) and it appears that one of the victims has objected to the portion of the TRO which prohibits him from suing the ever-loving shit out of NASI.

ALEJANDRO “ALEX” TREJO intends to bring a civil lawsuit in the Superior Court of the State of California, County of Los Angeles alleging fraud, accounting, breach of contract, fraudulent transfer (a state-law version of the fraudulent transfer act), violation of the Cal. Bus. & Prof. C. Sect. 17200 (unfair business practices), and pursue a foreclosure of the chattel / security in the automated teller machines (replevin / “Claim and Delivery”) sold to ALEJANDRO “ALEX” TREJO but managed by the named defendants in this action. The relief sought would include monetary, equitable, and punitive damages.

The Temporary Restraining Order issued September 30, 2014, would prejudice ALEJANDRO “ALEX” TREJO from pursuing his constitutional rights to petition the court and seek redress for the damages and injury sustained by him. Additionally, the ALEJANDRO “ALEX” TREJO seeks to conduct discovery in an attempt to ascertain potential parties that may be responsible for the losses and damages so that they could be joined to the anticipated civil litigation.

[grimreaper]

I was just checking the docket for the SEC case before turning in (huge mistake, BTW) and it appears that one of the victims has objected to the portion of the TRO which prohibits him from suing the ever-loving shit out of NASI.

ALEJANDRO “ALEX” TREJO intends to bring a civil lawsuit in the Superior Court of the State of California, County of Los Angeles alleging fraud, accounting, breach of contract, fraudulent transfer (a state-law version of the fraudulent transfer act), violation of the Cal. Bus. & Prof. C. Sect. 17200 (unfair business practices), and pursue a foreclosure of the chattel / security in the automated teller machines (replevin / “Claim and Delivery”) sold to ALEJANDRO “ALEX” TREJO but managed by the named defendants in this action. The relief sought would include monetary, equitable, and punitive damages.

The Temporary Restraining Order issued September 30, 2014, would prejudice ALEJANDRO “ALEX” TREJO from pursuing his constitutional rights to petition the court and seek redress for the damages and injury sustained by him. Additionally, the ALEJANDRO “ALEX” TREJO seeks to conduct discovery in an attempt to ascertain potential parties that may be responsible for the losses and damages so that they could be joined to the anticipated civil litigation.

That will go nowhere. My take, once in receivership no one individual will be able to get in their way.

[Lost Income]

Unfortunately, until NAS is officially confirmed fraud or bankruptcy (which could take who knows how long now that NAS has lawyered up), the only thing that has has changed for investors regarding taxes is that NAS has stopped monthly pmts and buy back of machines.

[ATM'd]

To Dawnth 1:

The NASI taxpayer ID number that appeared on my 1099 was 95-4606333.

You should see it on your 1099's as well.

[dawnth1]

This was my first year owning the "investment". I have never received a 1099 from NASI nor is it anywhere on any of their documents. Thank you for the info.

To Dawnth 1:

The NASI taxpayer ID number that appeared on my 1099 was 95-4606333.

You should see it on your 1099's as well.