Truthers and Sandy Hook

[Pottapaug1938]

Even someone with a passing understanding of psychology and beliefs could of seen thru his "I grabbed my gear and hustled to defend our freedoms" rant.

Belief noted.

So what exactly did you do that made an actual impact on anything? BTW if you think that's a rant you really need to get out more.[/quote]
You mean did I go and f up two counties that had little if anything to do with 9-11?

Tell me, exactly how many of the 9-11 terrorists were from afganistan or Iraq.

Oh wait, you were bringing them freedom right?[/quote]

Pottapaug Mountain is located in the town of Petersham, Massachusetts; and to its southeast it overlooks the Pottapaug Pond area of the Quabbin Reservoir, built during the 1930s as a water supply for greater Boston. Until 1938, it was located in the town of Dana, which with three other towns was disincorporated on April 28 of that year.

Pottapaug Mountain offers the hiker no grand vistas; but on its steep western slope there are three features of note, if one cares to look. There is the Indian Kitchens, where a rocky overhang sheltered the cooking fires of the Native American residents from rain and storm; there is the Bear's Den, which was used as a mark of courage by local boys who were brave enough to carve their names into the rocks surrounding the den (I saw some of these names in the early 80s); and there is the crash site of an F-94 Starfighter, which crashed there in 1955. Plenty of wreckage is still to be found there.

[arayder]

Even someone with a passing understanding of psychology and beliefs could of seen thru his "I grabbed my gear and hustled to defend our freedoms" rant.

Belief noted.

So what exactly did you do that made an actual impact on anything? BTW if you think that's a rant you really need to get out more.

Our visitor would do worse than nothing. He would make a mishmash of the Constitution and the law. He calls himself a patriot, but the truth is he's about as un-American as one can be.

It's not much of a surprise that he regards the thousands killed on 9/11 as forum fodder for some whacky theory he doesn't have the guts to say straight out.

[JamesVincent]

So what exactly did you do that made an actual impact on anything? BTW if you think that's a rant you really need to get out more.

I asked what, exactly, did you do that made an impact. So, what was it?

[arayder]

I asked what, exactly, did you do that made an impact. So, what was it?

I suspect the answer is nothing.

Every subject our visitor has brought up was broached in the hopes it would allow him to play coy games during which he might exercise what is, in his mind, his superior intelligence and knowledge.

His endless yammering over concurrent jurisdiction or how car titles and mortgages work allowed him to suave his self-inflated ego, while mildly entertaining the rest of us.

But frankly, when he applies his childish seeker of truth gambit to 9/11 I don't find it quite so entertaining.

PD, if you have something to say about 9/11 I invite you to start another thread on the subject and for once come right out like a full grow man and say what you have to say.

[JennyD]

I am going to go a little off topic, but still on topic if that makes sense..


This subject, Sandy Hook in particular is a very very sore subject with me.. I was one of the responders that day, as were many others from the state, and I almost want to vomit when I see conspiracies put out about how no kids died and it was all staged etc.. Sometimes, a rock is just a rock and we can never truly understand why, this is one of those cases where we will never know the background fully that caused this young man to snap.

The other part of this that just really pisses me off is the constant mentioning about how Adam was "aspergers"... Both of my girls are severe Autistic's and I gotta tell you, raising them alone has been a real challenge, between fighting for services and just making sure that they understand basics of life. But one thing everyone I have ever come into contact with has said, and I will back this statement, is that it is not the condition that causes the violent behavior in them, in fact, the condition itself lends to a more passive look at the world.

The "violent" behavior is usually caused by a secondary condition (ADHD et al) and is normally caught early and treated.. (I was lucky the girls don't have any secondary violent tendencies) but to lump it as Aspergers or Autism caused Adam Lanza is really not ... I can't even finish this sentence, as I am getting a violent thought...

[arayder]

The subject is Sandy Hook, not 9/11. So your comments are well on topic.

I hope you have stood up well after the trauma of being involved in the aftermath of the shootings.

I think folks try to gain some sort of understanding of mass murders and tend to grasp onto anything thing they think will help them understand.

I am struck by how many of the mass shootings end up with the shooter either shooting themselves or putting themselves in a position where the cops have to shoot them (suicide by cop).

Thus the incidents can be characterized as murder suicides and as such it seems to me the mind of the shooter is most likely consumed by a sense of hopelessness and alienation. That hopelessness seems to be the defining characteristic rather than Aspergers, ADHA, compulsive disorders. . .etc.

[JamesVincent]

One of the biggest things I have seen bandied around by truffers is that there were no eyewitnesses to this event. LEO's never actually showed up, paramedics were never present, etc etc. Which, of course, is absolute bullmalarky. Hundreds of responders were there, between LEO's, fire department, school board, parents, neighbors, hell, IIRC, the friggin mayor was there. But to a truffer, none of them were real, they were all crisis actors for Homeland Security. I posted a couple of the articles I had found in the week after this thread being started I believe. If not I will go find them again and post them, I know who's page they were on, my friend the resident sov'run, truffer, birfer and all around conspiracy nut (but he has a great singing voice. No, really, he does.)

Jenny, I am sorry you had to deal with some of the things you had to have gone through dealing with this scene. But, honestly, after knowing you on here for awhile now, I am glad that someone like you was around. Your obvious passion for people makes me glad that at least one person was there with great compassion. Keep up the good work.

[Duke2Earl]

Some people for their own psychological reasons seemingly must deny that certain things happened or that they were some sort of conspiracy. I am not psychologist enough to explain why this happens. But it has happened with regard to almost every disaster. The perhaps most egregious example is the Holocaust deniers, of which there are many. In the case of the Holocaust there were tens of thousands of actual eye witnesses and huge amounts of documentary and physical evidence, but still people deny it ever happened. The human psyche is a very poorly understood minefield.

[fortinbras]

The conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook seem to be motivated by a desire to disqualify that horrible tragedy for use in arguing for gun legislation. A gratuitous bit of nastiness because, even taken entirely at face value, the Sandy Hook massacre would have been almost impossible to prevent by legislation; the guns belonged to the killer's mother - she had acquired and maintained them in a presumably proper way, perhaps even more conscientiously than any law would require - and they fell into his hands only because he murdered her and then stole her guns. There's not much in that series of events that legislation could have prevented.

So background checks, licenses, registration, permits to buy ammo, etc. etc., would not have prevented a crazy son (whose craziness was previously not sufficiently obvious to justify official intervention) from killing his parent in order to steal the weaponry. However, that peculiar situation occurs in only a very small minority of gun tragedies/gun crimes.

It is entirely possible that smart legislation could reduce some of the more common types of misfortunes, and that would be worth something even if it couldn't prevent a Sandy Hook-style tragedy.

[Famspear]

Some people for their own psychological reasons seemingly must deny that certain things happened or that they were some sort of conspiracy. I am not psychologist enough to explain why this happens. But it has happened with regard to almost every disaster. The perhaps most egregious example is the Holocaust deniers, of which there are many....

During the war, those in Germany who were aware of what was going on had "good" reason (so to speak) not to talk about or let on that they knew -- for fear of becoming victims of the Nazis themselves. Years ago, I saw a documentary interview with Egon Hanfstaengl, the son of Ernst ("Putzi") Hanfstaengl. Ernst was a wealthy, aristocratic early supporter of (and adviser to) Hitler. Egon was just small boy when Hitler was beginning his rise to power, and Egon recalled that as a boy, Hitler often played with him; he knew Hitler as "Oncle Adolf." Until Ernst had a falling out with Hitler years later, the tie between his family and Hitler was strong. Indeed, after the disastrous Beer Hall Putsch, when the police were looking for Hitler, they found that Egon's mother Helene had been hiding Hitler at one of the Hanfstaengl residences.

Anyway, Egon pointed out in the interview that many in Germany who had been well aware of what had been going on in the "camps" during the war denied any knowledge of it after the war was over. Egon said that there was a saying among Germans during the war, which I think went something like:

Lieber Gott, mach mich stumm,
dass ich nicht nach Dachau kumm

--which I think translates, roughly and idiomatically, as:

Dear God, make me unable to speak,
So that I shall not be sent to Dachau.

Yet, as noted above, there are people today who were not even there who claim that it never happened.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Some people for their own psychological reasons seemingly must deny that certain things happened or that they were some sort of conspiracy. I am not psychologist enough to explain why this happens. ... The human psyche is a very poorly understood minefield.

A significant portion of the issue lies with the general population's loss of trust in "the authorities" over the last several decades.

[arayder]

Some people for their own psychological reasons seemingly must deny that certain things happened or that they were some sort of conspiracy. I am not psychologist enough to explain why this happens. ... The human psyche is a very poorly understood minefield.

A significant portion of the issue lies with the general population's loss of trust in "the authorities" over the last several decades.

I find it interesting that some folks think the same powers-that-be they say can't get anything right are capable of constructing elaborate conspiracies.

I think a more realistic view of conspiracies of a sort is gained by reading honest biographies of influential people, who are from time to time are influenced by those around them for purposes the uniformed might think constitute conspiratorial aims.

The best example I can think of at the moment is U.S. Grant who upon gaining the presidency was surrounded by "money men", some of whom had extraordinary influence with him. Grant was physically and morally brave and had no problem saying "no" to anyone or anything when he thought he was in the right. Had he run for a third term (something the nation might well have accepted) his exceptionally modern, progressive stance on the rights of African Americans might have changed the course of late 19th century America.

Having said this I point out that Grant had no problem accepting gifts, including an expensive Washington home, from people who greatly appreciated his civil war service but also stood to gain from being on his good side.

[JennyD]

Jenny, I am sorry you had to deal with some of the things you had to have gone through dealing with this scene. But, honestly, after knowing you on here for awhile now, I am glad that someone like you was around. Your obvious passion for people makes me glad that at least one person was there with great compassion. Keep up the good work.

Thank you...

This was the one defining moment in my career that caused me to go from the field to working with people as I do now. It just upsets me to no end to see people like PD so casually blow it all off like he does at times..

[JamesVincent]

It is entirely possible that smart legislation could reduce some of the more common types of misfortunes, and that would be worth something even if it couldn't prevent a Sandy Hook-style tragedy.

There is only one way that I'm aware of to stop the issue of criminals stealing weapons to be used in a crime. Fingerprint trigger locks. There was a company a few years ago that had developed one but could not make it affordable enough to sell it. Falls off in seconds if it's really you, has to be cut off if it's not. There is a "smart" pistol being marketed now that has a proximity watch lock built in but is ridiculously expensive for what it is.

[arayder]

Here's link to wikipedia's entry on smart guns, including the Smart Trigger technology James mentioned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_gun

The negatives mentioned about smart guns (that they might be harder to use under stress and might still be hackable) doesn't talk about the 270,000,000 to 310,000,000 "dumb" firearms already owned and stored in various ways around the country.

Since well maintained firearms can last a lifetime or more any guns grandfathered in after smart gun laws would still be around for quite some time.

Canada has addressed the issue of grandfathering weapons by requiring the continual registration of certain types of "prohibited" weapons such as the old pistol found (before 1998 when Canadian law changed) in grandma's sock drawer. But, frankly, the outlawing of "dumb" guns with the grandfathering of existing guns is not a political reality in the U.S.

[Judge Roy Bean]

... But, frankly, the outlawing of "dumb" guns with the grandfathering of existing guns is not a political reality in the U.S.

Given sufficient motive, the means will be found.

[fortinbras]

And I suspect that some clever villain will invent and peddle a work-around to fool the smart guns. The motivations of potential purchasers of this invention are numerous: Criminals, of course. People who want to share or at least create the option to share weapons with buddies or family members ("Here, try mine, feel how well it recoils, how accurate the sniper scope, etc." or even "I want my wife able to use my piece to stop a burglar when I'm not there."). People who want to facilitate trades and sales without any govt paperwork. The list is almost endless.

[LPC]

Egon said that there was a saying among Germans during the war, which I think went something like:

Lieber Gott, mach mich stumm,
dass ich nicht nach Dachau kumm

--which I think translates, roughly and idiomatically, as:

Dear God, make me unable to speak,
So that I shall not be sent to Dachau.

I don't claim to be the best translator of German (or the best poet), but I think I better translation would be:

Dear God, make me dumb,
that I not to Dachau come.

And yes, I am sure that there were many Germans who suffered from "willful blindness" when it came to the "solution" to the Juden Frage (the "Jewish question").

[notorial dissent]

Other than that Stumm translates better to mute, a good translation.

[LPC]

Other than that Stumm translates better to mute, a good translation.

The original meaning of "dumb" was "mute" or silent. It's only within the last hundred years or so that the word has come to mean "stupid." The phrase "struck dumb" means "struck speechless" not "struck senseless."

Digression: Change-ringing church bells has been both an art form and a competitive sport in England, and at some point people noticed that the practitioners developed better physiques from pulling down on the bell cords. So, machines were developed to allow people the same exercise, but without the noisy bells, using weights and levers. The weights used for exercise became known as "silent bells," or "dumbbells."