Is a payroll deduction agreement mandatory?

[LaVidaRoja]

A person who has taken a first-aid course -- no matter HOW excellent the teachers and comprehensive the course; is NOT prepared to perform surgery on themselves. Especially brain surgery!

[arayder]

I see, so if not an expert in everything then they must lack intelligence. Next your going to tell me that the experts at Sony say lady gaga is the next big thing, I guess since they are the experts I better buy her new album.

What would be wrong about becoming your own expert? I know I know, you can't just read and understand the law like old Lincoln did, why he was super intelligent.

Nope you have to pay to have the books read to you, that's what the experts say.

No, you are not an expert and you lack intelligence. You have had subject after subject explained to you, and you still don't get it!

That you should cast yourself as having Lincolnesque intelligence is frankly insulting to every American who values scholarship, common sense and simple honesty .

Lincoln's country bumpkin relatives, born in my home state of Kentucky, would see right through your sophist word games.

Lincoln's made himself a lawyer under adverse circumstances.

A man who employed the young Lincoln to do farm work for him, was surprised to find him sitting on a woodpile one day, attentively reading a book. This being an unusual thing for early 19th century farmhands to do the man asked him what he was reading.

"'I'm not reading.", Lincoln answered. "I'm studying."

"'Studying what?", the man inquired.

"'Law, sir! " was Lincoln's emphatic response.

PD, you don't study, you don't have a have a law book, or a woodpile. . . but you do have an ass on which to sit.

[LPC]

Next, Dan you imply these people, maybe even me lack intelligence.

I was responding to a comment that I thought was referring to irrational, hard-core, "sovereign citizens." If the shoe fits, then wear it.

And I didn't "imply" it, I said it. Don't project your own cowardice on me. Everything you post is chicken excrement. You don't have the courage (or perhaps intelligence) to say what you mean, so you posture behind arguments posing as questions. You think you're being clever, but it's actually pathetic.

How exactly would you know this? 10 different experts will give you 10 different definitions of intelligence. How exactly do you define it and what area of expertise allows you to claim to be able to identify it in a person?

The fact that 10 different "experts" can give me 10 different definitions of intelligence, or morality, or truth, or beauty, does not mean that I should spend my life unable to give any opinion on intelligence, or morality, or truth, or beauty.

But to answer your question, one mark of what I consider to be intelligence is the ability to negotiate and deal with one's environment.

The mark of the typical sovereign citizen (and tax protester) is to follow a path of behavior that is completely self-centered and completely contraindicated by conventional wisdom and common knowledge, and to persist in that path in the face of economic and legal adversity, often resulting in impoverishment and imprisonment.

And yes, I think that shows a lack of intelligence.

Putting it somewhat differently, sociopaths can be brilliant tacticians, but ultimately they are still sociopaths.

If you want to be a brilliant sociopath, that's your business, but don't expect me to consider you to be "intelligent."

[Famspear]

I'd like to make a further comment about PD's reference to someone "being your own expert."

In addition to the standard dictionary requirements for being an expert -- having special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience -- I contend that to really be an expert in a significant way, two more things have to be true about you, or about your status as an expert.

1. No matter how well you know the subject of your knowledge, you must have been recognized as an expert on that subject by someone other than yourself.

2. The "someone else" who recognized you to be an expert must have been qualified to grant you the status of "expert." For example, the grant of a "doctorate" by a diploma mill does not count as a valid recognition by someone qualified to grant such recognition.

I cringe a little when I see someone advertise himself or herself with words like "I am an expert on the subject of (fill in the blank)".

It is much more meaningful and useful to say "I have been recognized as an expert on the subject of (fill in the blank) by (name or refer to the entities or persons who recognized you)".

[NYGman]

To me, these sovereign citizens type folk have some misguided belief that the law and tax code is full of loopholes exploited by the rich and powerful and folks who know about these things keep it secret from the average person.

The sovereign experts, spend their time reading the law, looking for these loopholes so they can exploit them too. To do this they selectively read parts of the law, and sections of cases, many old law cases, to put together the positions they believe are available.

This usually takes the form of reading code sections in a vacuum, applying code and regulations selectively (and often out of context) and partially. Quoting dicta and non relevant parts of cases, that have not even been Shepardized, as binding case law.

Unfortunatly they can not learn the law, if they fail to understand the basics of how to research and read and understand the law. It can be taught, but for that you have to have intelligence and an open mind.

Besides, would those of us really in the know about the real loopholes actually tell these people they are right or help them learn how the rich don't pay tax. We could never do that and they know that

Truth is there are no secret loopholes. There are tax free municipal bonds, tax credits, reduced tax rates on long term capital gains and dividends. To expolit these and make a living you need to have serious assets to begin with, and intelligence to invest well.

It also amazes me the amount of tax you may be trying to avoid. Some of the "refunds" on the CtC website are in the high hundreds to low thousands. To me this reflects relitively low income to begin with. I sometimes wonder if they were filing properly, they may actually legitimately owe no tax or are eligible for a real refund.

[The Observer]

With all of the commentary going on about the intelligence of, or lack thereof, of tax protesters and sovrun citizens, let me go out on the limb here and suggest that some of them may indeed be very intelligent.

However, none of them are wise.

[Patriotdiscussions]

Very enlightening guys, you are truely intellectual giants.

[Famspear]

Very enlightening guys, you are truely [sic] intellectual giants.

The word is "truly," not "truely."

Your sarcasm evinces a lack of ability to provide a meaningful answer.

[Patriotdiscussions]

To me, these sovereign citizens type folk have some misguided belief that the law and tax code is full of loopholes exploited by the rich and powerful and folks who know about these things keep it secret from the average person.

The sovereign experts, spend their time reading the law, looking for these loopholes so they can exploit them too. To do this they selectively read parts of the law, and sections of cases, many old law cases, to put together the positions they believe are available.

This usually takes the form of reading code sections in a vacuum, applying code and regulations selectively (and often out of context) and partially. Quoting dicta and non relevant parts of cases, that have not even been Shepardized, as binding case law.

Unfortunatly they can not learn the law, if they fail to understand the basics of how to research and read and understand the law. It can be taught, but for that you have to have intelligence and an open mind.

Besides, would those of us really in the know about the real loopholes actually tell these people they are right or help them learn how the rich don't pay tax. We could never do that and they know that

Truth is there are no secret loopholes. There are tax free municipal bonds, tax credits, reduced tax rates on long term capital gains and dividends. To expolit these and make a living you need to have serious assets to begin with, and intelligence to invest well.

It also amazes me the amount of tax you may be trying to avoid. Some of the "refunds" on the CtC website are in the high hundreds to low thousands. To me this reflects relitively low income to begin with. I sometimes wonder if they were filing properly, they may actually legitimately owe no tax or are eligible for a real refund.

It is estimated that we spend 6 months every year paying local, state and federal taxes along with fines, permits,licenses, tags,etc.

Now I suppose that is not a lot of money to you, and when my 7year old is 18, and we are still running deficits, I guess freedom will cost her 9 months a year eh?

Yeah who would question freedom when they have it so good right?

[JamesVincent]

It rubs the lotion on the skin, or else it gets the hose again.

[arayder]

Very enlightening guys, you are truely intellectual giants.

The truth is your original presumptuous question was asnwered long ago, PD.

We are now entering the phase of each and every one of your threads in which you yammer about nothing in particular until the thread is closed.

It is estimated that we spend 6 months every year paying local, state and federal taxes along with fines, permits,licenses, tags,etc.

Are you sure that's not 6 months spent listening to you talk sh*t?

[Famspear]

It is estimated that we spend 6 months every year paying local, state and federal taxes along with fines, permits,licenses, tags,etc.

Now I suppose that is not a lot of money to you, and when my 7year old is 18, and we are still running deficits, I guess freedom will cost her 9 months a year eh?

Yeah who would question freedom when they have it so good right?

Freedom? I don't think you know much about freedom.

But, assuming that all that is true, how does that negate the legal validity of the current tax laws?

Answer: It doesn't.

This is another problem that you people have: The inability or unwillingness to tell the difference between the unfairness or wisdom of certain tax laws and the validity of those laws.

People like you have a twisted, burning desire -- because of your opposition to these laws -- to construct delusions about the laws.

[Patriotdiscussions]

Very enlightening guys, you are truely [sic] intellectual giants.

The word is "truly," not "truely."

Your sarcasm evinces a lack of ability to provide a meaningful answer.

Yeah, you see, people's beliefs do not change, so I am under no pressure to give an answer that you will reject out of hand.

What I came here to do was to see if you folks could provide some non canned government fed belief influenced answer that I could get from any part time h and r employee.

You were correct that I thought I already knew the answer to the question. But the answer I knew was the one you gave, not some imagined answer from misreading the code.

I know the law survives on presumptions, it seems like you folks do as well.

Of course I can not learn law from the copy of pleading and procedure state and federal 8th edition, hazard, tait, fletcher from foundation press that I have in front of me. Nope you need super human intelligence to be a lawyer, that's why so few graduate from college every year. I mean we put out more lawyers every year then any other profession. Based on statistics and the amount of kids going for law, the average iq is not a rocket scientist.

But your right, who in their right mind could grasp a concept from a book unless someone explains it to him.

[Patriotdiscussions]

It is estimated that we spend 6 months every year paying local, state and federal taxes along with fines, permits,licenses, tags,etc.

Now I suppose that is not a lot of money to you, and when my 7year old is 18, and we are still running deficits, I guess freedom will cost her 9 months a year eh?

Yeah who would question freedom when they have it so good right?

Freedom? I don't think you know much about freedom.

But, assuming that all that is true, how does that negate the legal validity of the current tax laws?

Answer: It doesn't.

This is another problem that you people have: The inability or unwillingness to tell the difference between the unfairness or wisdom of certain tax laws and the validity of those laws.

People like you have a twisted, burning desire -- because of your opposition to these laws -- to construct delusions about the laws.

People like me eh? Seems those presumptions come out quick when your brain is on belief autopilot.

I have no delusions about any law, I will keep reading till I understand it all. However to act like I should not question an obligation my servant says I owe, then it is clear who does not know about freedom.

[Patriotdiscussions]

A person who has taken a first-aid course -- no matter HOW excellent the teachers and comprehensive the course; is NOT prepared to perform surgery on themselves. Especially brain surgery!

Great example, a good friend is a neuro surgeon in Portland.

Let me ask you a question, who performed the first brain surgery?

Who do you think taught them?

[grixit]

The ruddy glow of sunset was already fading into the sombre shadows of night, when two travellers might have been observed swiftly—at a pace of six miles in the hour—descending the rugged side of a mountain; the younger bounding from crag to crag with the agility of a fawn, while his companion, whose aged limbs seemed ill at ease in the heavy chain armour habitually worn by tourists in that district, toiled on painfully at his side.

As is always the case under such circumstances, the younger knight was the first to break the silence.[2]

"A goodly pace, I trow!" he exclaimed. "We sped not thus in the ascent!"

"Goodly, indeed!" the other echoed with a groan. "We clomb it but at three miles in the hour."

"And on the dead level our pace is——?" the younger suggested; for he was weak in statistics, and left all such details to his aged companion.

"Four miles in the hour," the other wearily replied. "Not an ounce more," he added, with that love of metaphor so common in old age, "and not a farthing less!"

"'Twas three hours past high noon when we left our hostelry," the young man said, musingly. "We shall scarce be back by supper-time. Perchance mine host will roundly deny us all food!"

"He will chide our tardy return," was the grave reply, "and such a rebuke will be meet."

"A brave conceit!" cried the other, with a merry laugh. "And should we bid him bring us yet another course, I trow his answer will be tart!"

"We shall but get our deserts," sighed the elder knight, who had never seen a joke in his life, and was somewhat displeased at his companion's untimely levity. "'Twill be nine of the clock," he[3] added in an undertone, "by the time we regain our hostelry. Full many a mile shall we have plodded this day!"

"How many? How many?" cried the eager youth, ever athirst for knowledge.

The old man was silent.

"Tell me," he answered, after a moment's thought, "what time it was when we stood together on yonder peak. Not exact to the minute!" he added hastily, reading a protest in the young man's face. "An' thy guess be within one poor half-hour of the mark, 'tis all I ask of thy mother's son! Then will I tell thee, true to the last inch, how far we shall have trudged betwixt three and nine of the clock."

A groan was the young man's only reply; while his convulsed features and the deep wrinkles that chased each other across his manly brow, revealed the abyss of arithmetical agony into which one chance question had plunged him.

[wserra]

We are now entering the phase of each and every one of your threads in which you yammer about nothing in particular until the thread is closed.

Bingo.