Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Micheal360
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Micheal360 »

Gregg wrote:
Do you actually think that banister and Turner just woke up one day and went crazy on their beliefs?
Yes, its the most plausible explanation
You actually believe that Tom Cryer was that incompetence of a lawyer to understand that he was liable for the income tax?
Absolutely, I do, or at best some combination of incompetent and crazy.
Do you really believe that Edwin Vieira doesn't know how to interpret constitutional law?
00Yep.
Do you actually believe that Ron Paul doesn't understand the constitutional taxing powers of Congress?
Another slam dunk, Ron Paul likes to hear the sound of his own voice jabbering into the wind, without a clue in the world what the sounds are meaning.
Do you actually think that the founding fathers fought a bloody revolution war for nothing? The British was taxing us to death.
The taxes were minimal and even had a good justification, it wasn't the tax, it was their imposition without any input from those taxed.
:lol: Another genius here. :sarcasmon:
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Prof »

Micheal 360 wrote:
Seriously, you are such a tool! The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Department of revenue office of appeals. I really do believe that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has the power to execute wage garnishment Levy's. I live with Jameson. He has all his notices that was sent to him from Massachusetts Department of revenue. He has notices that were sent from his employer stating that the wage garnishment was going to go into effect. Notice date 12/28/12

Notice of levy on wages, salary income. This is what the notice says. If you believe this Levy is an error, you must file a written appeal directly with the Massachusetts Department of revenue. Your appeal letter, together with supporting documentation, should be sent to the Massachusetts Department of revenue, PO Box 7049, Boston, MA 02204. However, the filing of an appeal does not stop this Levy and your employer is required to continue to make payments to the department into the final decision is reached. Jameson has made a copy of the notice and printed out this: http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendme ... ion01.html and attached to the notice as documentation and requested that he got clarification that his income was in fact taxable under the provisions of the 16th amendment and within the meaning of the Constitution. He was in shock when his paycheck never got any money garnished. And never heard back on his appeal decision.

He has received another notice of levy on wages, salary and other income. Notice date 12/26/14 He repealed it the same exact way that he appealed the other one. And he got the same results.Jameson has not paid his taxes in full for seven years. He doesn't have any of his IRS notices because he did not keep a copy for himself, he sent in the original notice with attached documentation just like he did for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The first notice that he has received from the IRS that was sent to his employer for wage garnishment. He called up the IRS and spoken to the customer service rep and asked if he can get on a payment plan. The woman said no, it is already in effect and it's in the computer. Jameson did not appeal the notice until after he has spoken to the customer service rep. Jameson realizes that he has 30 days before the wage garnishment kicks in. After three months go by and they still have not garnished his wages, he has came to the conclusion that there is in fact something wrong. So you can think what you want. You can interpret constitutional law anyway that you want to and think that you are right, I don't care. It is quite obvious that the IRS and the Department of revenue cannot interpret constitutional law to the point where they can prove that Jameson's income is in fact taxable under the 16th amendment provisions and within the meaning of the Constitution.
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Does anyone believe any statement in this posting?

I actually think the allegation that Jameson's income was never garnished and that he pays no taxes could be true for several three very valid, but different, reasons:

1. Jameson has no income.
2. Jameson's income is below the threshold which requires the payment of taxes or so low that the garnishment statute does not allow garnishment of any portion of his wages.
3. Jameson is paid, in cash, under the table-- a not uncommon practice, particularly if he is an undocumented immigrant.

Oh, and this person should learn some US history. The small taxes imposed by the British government were, at least in large part, due to the debt incurred in defending the colonies during the French and Indian Wars. Those taxes were not "taxing us to death" but were imposed without any representation.

If one seeks economic justification (or cause and effect) for the American Revolution, one really needs to know how "mercantilism" was supposed to work for the home country. Check out the pretty good article on Wikipedia -- or, read Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Hyrion »

Jameson3171/Micheal360 wrote:Seriously, you are such a tool!
The cases that you yourself have cited prove your income is subject to taxation.

Calling us names is no more effective then your continuing to repeat the same things over and over. You will eventually be called into Court in order to explain why you believe your income is not subject to being taxed.

Name calling, misquoting, pointing to non-reliable non-authoritative sources to support your beliefs won't alter realty.

Some day soon you will discover that.

At that point, you'll have a choice to make. You can accept that the sources you had chosen to believe were very much mistaken - or you can decide to dig yourself deeper into the rabbit hole. Should you choose to dig deeper into the rabbit hole you will eventually have succeeded in destroying your own life. But... ultimately that's one of the few true rights any human being has.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Hyrion »

Prof wrote:
Jameson3171/Micheal360 wrote:Seriously...
Does anyone believe any statement in this posting?
Not a bit of it.

There's too much contradictory in between this posting and all the previous combined postings of Jameson3171/Micheal360.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Famspear »

Micheal360 wrote:
Gregg wrote:
Do you actually think that banister and Turner just woke up one day and went crazy on their beliefs?
Yes, its the most plausible explanation
You actually believe that Tom Cryer was that incompetence of a lawyer to understand that he was liable for the income tax?
Absolutely, I do, or at best some combination of incompetent and crazy.
Do you really believe that Edwin Vieira doesn't know how to interpret constitutional law?
00Yep.
Do you actually believe that Ron Paul doesn't understand the constitutional taxing powers of Congress?
Another slam dunk, Ron Paul likes to hear the sound of his own voice jabbering into the wind, without a clue in the world what the sounds are meaning.
Do you actually think that the founding fathers fought a bloody revolution war for nothing? The British was taxing us to death.
The taxes were minimal and even had a good justification, it wasn't the tax, it was their imposition without any input from those taxed.
:lol: Another genius here. :sarcasmon:
I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but you are in absolutely no position to evaluate the mental abilities of anyone, Einstein.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Famspear »

Micheal360 wrote:Do you actually think that banister and Turner just woke up one day and went crazy on their beliefs?
No, I think it happened slowly, over time.
You actually believe that Tom Cryer was that incompetence of a lawyer to understand that he was liable for the income tax?
Yes, he was quite incompetent about federal taxes. Indeed, the trial court rejected all his arguments. He was acquitted by the jury, but his goofy arguments about what the law is were specifically rejected by the Court.
Do you really believe that Edwin Vieira doesn't know how to interpret constitutional law?
It's not Vieira's job to interpret constitutional law. It's his job to study constitutional law and, if and when he is practicing law, to advise others. On the subject of taxation, I am certain that I am better than Vieira. And, while Vieira has an axe to grind, I do not. That's another advantage for me.
Do you actually believe that Ron Paul doesn't understand the constitutional taxing powers of Congress?
Yes, I know that Ron Paul has some serious deficiencies in his understanding of the constitutional taxing powers of Congress. I have actually caught him making at least one erroneous comment in public in this regard. I'll look around and see if I can find it (I don't know whether I saved it or not).
Do you actually think that the founding fathers fought a bloody revolution war for nothing? The British was [sic] taxing us to death.
I love it when you get dramatic.
Chief Justice white recognized that the 16th amendment was in fact being interpreted wrong. He specifically said 16th amendment must be construed to the original Constitution. He specifically said that the 16th amendment cannot be in conflict with article 1. Mr. White also recognize that the 16th amendment was being misused and abused.
And, in his opinion in the case to which you are referring, he upheld the constitutionality of the Federal income tax.
You would live just find in the commonest country.
Uh, oh. Your command of the English language, such as it is, is slipping even more.
You are a sheep that can be easily led out to the pastor [sic].
Sure, if the "pastor" happens to be Methodist. Or Baptist. Or Lutheran. Or... oh, never mind.....
You can be manipulated and controlled easily.
That may be true, but only if you happen to be a young female with big kazongers.
You are weak and the government likes that.
No, I am not weak -- and especially not when it comes to dealing with the government. I make my living representing people in their dealings with the Internal Revenue Service. I'm sure that you have no idea what I'm used to.
Tax protesters are standing up to their rights to earn a living without the government dipping into their pockets.
Bulls**t.
Tax protesters realize that the government is shady on this income tax honesty movement. Tax protesters are fighting for the quality of their life.
Bulls**t.
Thank God the founding fathers were not bunch of pussy's. Only if they knew what was going on today. All their accomplishments are being destroyed. And people like you are allowing it to happen and that is just a shame.
Bulls**t. Sell that crap to Banister and Turner and the rest of your heroes.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

If my previously-expressed suspicions that English is not Jameal360/Michison3171's native language, I will cut him a tiny piece of slack; but in any event I do not care to respond to any further comments of his, until he addresses, without evasion or equivocation, the question of how, given that the Brushaber decision deems constitutional a tax on income, whatever the source, he claims that he does not have to pay tax on his income.

I don't effing care whether the income tax is direct or indirect. All I care about is the fact that it may be imposed without regard to any need for apportionment; so I'm not interested in any further blather about direct or indirect taxes.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by The Observer »

Micheal360 wrote:He has received another notice of levy on wages, salary and other income. Notice date 12/26/14 He repealed it the same exact way that he appealed the other one. And he got the same results.
The fact that there has been no result over the last 90 days is hardly conclusive. It could simply mean that the appeals decision has not been rendered yet.
He doesn't have any of his IRS notices because he did not keep a copy for himself, he sent in the original notice with attached documentation just like he did for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
That was awfully short-sighted, huh? Or just convenient?
The first notice that he has received from the IRS that was sent to his employer for wage garnishment. He called up the IRS and spoken to the customer service rep and asked if he can get on a payment plan.
This doesn't make sense. Why would "he" want to get on a payment plan? I thought the whole point of "his" gibberish was that "he" didn't have to pay income taxes. So why is "he" is trying to pay "his" taxes on installment?
The woman said no, it is already in effect and it's in the computer.
Jameson did not appeal the notice until after he has spoken to the customer service rep. Jameson realizes that he has 30 days before the wage garnishment kicks in.
And again, this doesn't make sense. Before the IRS can levy wages, they send out a final notice advising the taxpayer that he/she must file for the Collection Due Process within 30 days to avoid a levy being issued. If the levy was already served, it would mean that the CDP was not filed timely. In which case the IRS did not have to release any levies issued. And you are claiming that the IRS levied the wages. In which case the employer is obligated to forward the funds after the first payday.

The IRS can certainly decide to release the levy if they wish to after the taxpayer files for an equivalent hearing, but you haven't mentioned that at all as a possible explanation of why there are no wages being garnished.
After three months go by and they still have not garnished his wages, he has came to the conclusion that there is in fact something wrong.
Or the possibility that he can't tell the story the same way twice in a row. Or that he is lying or making up stuff. Or that he is omitting key facts from his little tale. Or he conned the employer into not forwarding the wage garnishment. But I know what is not a possibility: that Jameson has won an appeal over the gibberish he is promoting here. Because if he did, he would be able to provide a copy of the letter from the Appeals Division advising him of such a decision. But he hasn't and he won't because he can't.
So you can think what you want. You can interpret constitutional law anyway that you want to and think that you are right, I don't care.


Sure, why not? That is exactly what Jameson/Michael is doing.
It is quite obvious that the IRS and the Department of revenue cannot interpret constitutional law to the point where they can prove that Jameson's income is in fact taxable under the 16th amendment provisions and within the meaning of the Constitution.
No, what is obvious is that Jameson is clinging at straws in thinking that silence from the government for 90 days means that he has a won a victory. Irwin Schiff used to make that same claim for the several years that he was running free. Then one day that all became untrue as he headed for an effective life sentence for acting on his gibberish.

The government may move at a sloth's pace, but when it gets to you, you are gonna feel its arrival.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by AndyK »

The sock puppets are rapidly approaching the line in the sand regarding civility in posting.

If they can't enter a simple post without resorting to personal insults and other forms of disparagement, their posts will be reported to management for appropriate action.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by . »

Huh. Page after page after page of refuted rubbish. On multiple threads.

I'll hazard a wild guess that our new favorite semi-literate sock-puppeteer in MA who has been administratively appealing a lien/levy/garnishment/assessment/etc./whatever on idiotic 16th Amendment (or PRA or other equally frivolous) grounds is about to get a whole lot of much more detailed attention from both the IRS and the MA Department of Revenue.

It may have taken 6 or 7 years to get around to the nonsense, but I suspect that the level of service will now become very, even astonishingly prompt.

See how that works?

All you have to do is post about nothing happening with your BS claims on a TP-scam board that's widely read by IRS and DoJ enforcement people (active and retired,) not to mention state revenue enforcement people, especially after they get an e-mail from the feds if they didn't already spot it themselves.

Now, some of our friendly jack-booted thugs of long-time board membership read for their own amusement, sorta like I do, but others have more serious things in mind. Like your money, assuming that you have any. And nothing is more fun to tax enforcement people than shooting fish in a barrel. Then again, if you're a financial turnip from which little or no blood can be squeezed your prize is merely recorded liens on your credit record and garnishment notices to your soon-to-be former employers.

Either way, good luck. You're gonna need it.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Cpt Banjo »

LPC wrote:Oliver Wendell Holmes (the author, not the judge) wrote that an ounce a page of history is worth a pound volume of logic, and I believe that the direct/indirect dichotomy can only be understood in the context of the history of the Constitution.
Fixed it for you. See New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921).
LPC wrote: There are several problems with the meaning of “indirect taxes” as “all taxes paid primarily by persons who can shift the burden upon some one else” and “direct taxes” as taxes “the payment of which cannot be avoided”:

• First (and most importantly), there is no support for those meanings in the words of the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, or any writings of the authors of the Constitution.
I must respectfully disagree. Professor Erik Jensen (who has one of the clearest and most engaging writing styles ever seen in a law professor)* has argued that avoidability (of which shiftability is a subset) was the defining characteristic of an indirect tax:
In 1876, Thomas Cooley, perhaps the nineteenth-century American authority on the law of taxation, drew a distinction that has modern resonances, but it would have been comprehensible to Gouverneur Morris as well:

Taxes are said to be

Direct, under which designation would be included those which are assessed upon the property, person, business, income, etc., of those who are to pay them; and

Indirect, or those which are levied on commodities before they reach the consumer, and are paid by those upon whom they ultimately fall, not as taxes, but as part of the market price of the commodity. Under the second head may be classed the duties upon imports, and the excise and stamp duties levied upon manufactures.

The "indirect taxes" are generally those that the Constitution denominated duties, imposts, and excises, and in general those are taxes imposed on articles of consumption.

Cooley did not suggest that this distinction was mandated by the Constitution, but I suspect he would have done so had Hylton not been on the books. The distinction between direct and indirect taxation is found throughout the debates on the Constitution; it is a distinction like that described by Cooley.

For example, in The Federalist No. 36, Alexander Hamilton contrasted direct and indirect taxes. By indirect taxes "must be understood duties and excises on articles of consumption." Direct taxes are, presumably, everything else.

Such indirect taxes may wind up affecting the price, and therefore the consumption, of the products to which they relate. In The Federalist No. 21, Hamilton noted that "imposts, excises, and, in general, all duties upon articles of consumption, may be compared to a fluid, which will in time find its level with the means of paying them." Consumers will adjust their behavior to the cost of the products, a cost that may reflect the consumption taxes that have to be paid - the "imperceptible agency of taxes on consumption."…

Nevertheless, the assumption of most founders was that of Cooley: an indirect tax is one which the ultimate consumer can generally decide whether to pay by deciding whether to acquire the taxed product. For the Hamilton of The Federalist, before he became an advocate trying to validate the Hylton carriage tax, it was enough to characterize consumption taxes as indirect in that they were usually passed on: "The maxim that the consumer is the payer is so much oftener true than the reverse of the proposition ...."

Jensen, The Apportionment of Direct Taxes: Are Consumption Taxes Constitutional?, 97 Columbia L. Rev. 2334, 2393-2396 (1997) (footnotes omitted)
Of course, Jensen doesn’t think for one minute that this is the current Supreme Court jurisprudence regarding direct v. indirect taxes, and he has acknowledged that the Court has expanded the category of “excises” to cover just about everything except capitations and property taxes. His point is that the Court has departed from the original concept of indirect taxes, a view that is hinted at by the last sentence of the Murphy case that you cited (“Regardless what the original understanding may have been…”)

As far as the Hylton case is concerned, I’ve always thought it is overrated. First of all, the case was a trumped-up job that the Supreme Court had no jurisdiction to hear in the first place. As Jensen notes:
It was a test case crafted out of whole cloth by a number of Virginians unhappy with the tax - "everyone knew that the case ... was feigned," writes William Casto - and it was embraced by a Federalist bench that, one might infer, wanted to make a statement about national power. Hylton claimed to have 125 carriages for his own use (more, wrote Edward Whitney, "than then existed in Virginia"), presumably because the threshold jurisdictional amount required for Supreme Court review was $ 2000 (125 carriages with tax and penalties totaling $ 16 per carriage). Even if believed, the patently phony claim should not have worked: for Supreme Court jurisdictional purposes, the dollar amount at issue was supposed to exceed, not merely equal, $ 2000, and the parties had agreed that any liability of Hylton's could be discharged for only sixteen dollars, equaling the tax due on one carriage plus penalties. Nevertheless, Hylton went ahead without any Justices questioning the Court's authority to hear the case or directly questioning the Court's power to nullify congressional acts on constitutional grounds. Jensen, supra, at 2351-2352 (footnotes omitted).
Second, the statements by Justices Chase and Iredell that direct taxes are only those that can be practically apportioned without inequities is inconsistent with their view that taxes on land are direct taxes. Any apportioned tax based on land values, which will vary from state to state, will inevitably result in different tax rates from state to state, thereby resulting in the very inequity that Chase illustrated in his opinion.

Third, the carriage tax involved in Hylton wasn’t a one-shot deal like a sales tax; it was imposed annually, just as if it were a personal property tax. In fact, I believe it was a personal property tax, even though some have characterized it as a tax on the use of the carriages. There is little if any difference between a tax on ownership and a tax on use, and the carriage tax would have been payable even if Hylton had never actually used the carriages but had simply stored them in his barn. The reason I bring this up is that Pollock and dicta in several SCOTUS cases have indicated that a tax on the mere ownership of property is a direct tax, and I can’t see why the carriage tax wouldn’t be a tax on ownership. If it is, then Hylton was wrongly decided by today’s standards.

*Two of my favorite Jensen quotes:

In an article discussing whether Obamacare’s individual mandate is a direct tax, he poses the following hypothetical:
Suppose Congress enacted a taxing regime under which all citizens and resident aliens with annual incomes exceeding $ 50,000 were required to pay a tax of $ 1,000, but the liability for those with incomes of $ 50,000 or less would be $ 2,000.174

Fn 174: Yes, this is a law professor's hypothetical, dealing with something that could not possibly happen in the real world. But for what it is worth, if a law professor had hypothesized the individual mandate 25 or so years ago, he would have been viewed as out of his mind.
And in a letter discussing what a “tax on incomes” is:
Many assume that unapportioned Social Security “taxes” are constitutional because they are “taxes on incomes.” But the Supreme Court has never said that, and, to my mind, Social Security levies weren’t taxes at all as the system was created. If you make a payment to a government, and you get something specific in return – entry into a park, say – you’re not being taxed. And payors into Social Security are (or were) acquiring a specific benefit, a retirement and disability plan.5

Fn5: You also get benefits from paying taxes, I’ve been told, but those are the more amorphous benefits of a civilized society – i.e., before the designated hitter and gangsta rap came along.
Last edited by Cpt Banjo on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by . »

Say, Banjo, nice hypothetical monkey wrench. I agree philosophically, but common sense matters not.

So, hypothetically monkey-wrench-wise, how does one then categorize the corporate income tax? Considering that it is all passed on (in unknown and perhaps unknowable proportions) to corporate employees as reduced wages/benefits and/or corporate customers as increased prices and/or corporate owners as reduced profits. Direct or indirect?

When it comes to taxes, you can never have too many monkey wrenches.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Cpt Banjo »

. wrote:So, hypothetically monkey-wrench-wise, how does one then categorize the corporate income tax?
Although it wasn't strictly an income tax, the Supreme Court upheld the Corporation Excise Tax of 1909 as an indirect tax -- an excise on the privilege of doing business as a corporation. See Flint v. Stone Tracy Co., 220 U.S. 107 (1911). But the same rationale could be used to justify a corporate income tax. It's avoidable in the sense that one can choose to not do business as a corporation or in the sense that one might be able to shift the tax by increasing one's price.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by notorial dissent »

Yes Famspear you are correct, I have read up on that. He also points out who is liable. Do you actually think that banister and Turner just woke up one day and went crazy on their beliefs?
Bannister was a mediocre IRS employee who'd reached his level of incompetence and decided it was easier scamming fools like you than actually working for a living. If you were really paying attention, you'd have figured out that he is also a hypocrite since he doesn't use any of his theories on his own income tax payments, which he makes like clockwork, since he knows what the law is and just how far he can stretch things and not break it, but he is first, last, and foremost a hypocrite conman. Turner always was a conman and it caught up with him.

You actually believe that Tom Cryer was that incompetence of a lawyer to understand that he was liable for the income tax?
Cryer exhibited his incompetence in every legal proceeding he was involved in, and it ultimately got him disbarred. The only reason he didn't go to prison for tax fraud was that he managed to convince a jury that he was either too stupid or too incompetent to figure out the tax laws. Does not speak highly of his competence either way.

Do you really believe that Edwin Vieira doesn't know how to interpret constitutional law?
Vierira is entitled to his opinions, just as you are, but that is all they are, he is not trained in constitutional law and his legal track record says otherwise at the law he is versed in. All that aside, the courts and most legal opinion say that he is not only wrong, but dead wrong.

Do you actually believe that Ron Paul doesn't understand the constitutional
taxing powers of Congress?
Paul has more than amply demonstrated that he doesn't understand the taxing power of Congress or much of anything else based on his actions.

Do you actually think that the founding fathers fought a bloody revolution war for nothing? The British was taxing us to death.
Your knowledge of history is obviously on par with your knowledge of the law, which is to say nil. The argument the colonies had with Britain was not over the tax(s) per se or even the amount of the taxes, which were minuscule for the most part, and certainly in comparison to what the was being charged in Great Britain at the time. The argument was not about the tax, but the tax was made without their input or approval, i.e. their having any say about it in parliament. Further the English started interfering with and dismantling the over 100 years of self government tradition that had grown up in the colonies, which is what really got them riled up. That's what the Revolution was about.

Chief Justice white recognized that the 16th amendment was in fact being interpreted wrong. He specifically said 16th amendment must be construed to the original Constitution. He specifically said that the 16th amendment cannot be in conflict with article 1. Mr. White also recognize that the 16th amendment was being misused and abused. BS, Mr White recognized or said no such thing. He in fact said that the 16th was the law and that the income tax as was in effect at the time was both constitutional and legal. The fact that he did it so poorly is regrettable, but doesn't alter what he said, and the courts have followed that ruling the last 100 years. Your reading incompetence is not law.

You would live just find in the commonest country. You are a sheep that can be easily led out to the pastor. You can be manipulated and controlled easily. You are weak and the government likes that. Tax protesters are standing up to their rights to earn a living without the government dipping into their pockets. Tax protesters realize that the government is shady on this income tax honesty movement. Tax protesters are fighting for the quality of their life. Thank God the founding fathers were not bunch of pussy's. Only if they knew what was going on today. All their accomplishments are being destroyed. And people like you are
allowing it to happen and that is just a shame. Usual TP blather and railing all of no value and finally down to your base motives, and not wroth replying to.

You are beginning to get shrill and desperate sounding as you keep losing.

Mind your manners as far as posting is concerned if you do not maintain civility I will start deleting anything that isn't.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by LPC »

notorial dissent wrote:
You actually believe that Tom Cryer was that incompetence of a lawyer to understand that he was liable for the income tax?
Cryer exhibited his incompetence in every legal proceeding he was involved in, and it ultimately got him disbarred.
I don't think that Cryer was ever disbarred.

He was publicly reprimanded once for neglecting a client, but never anything more serious than that.

And I'm not sure that he was incompetent as a lawyer. Delusional when it came to income taxes, but not necessarily incompetent.
notorial dissent wrote:
Do you really believe that Edwin Vieira doesn't know how to interpret constitutional law?
Vierira is entitled to his opinions, just as you are, but that is all they are, he is not trained in constitutional law and his legal track record says otherwise at the law he is versed in. All that aside, the courts and most legal opinion say that he is not only wrong, but dead wrong.
Once again, I think that you're overstating the case.

Vieira argued several labor law cases before the Supreme Court that rested on First Amendment principles, so to say he was "not trained in constitutional law" is either wrong or splitting hairs.

He became a goldbug in his later years, and went delusional on the issue of "constitutional money," but that has nothing to do with his training, or his track record as a lawyer.
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
notorial dissent
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by notorial dissent »

I may be mis-remembering, but I thought Cryer got his ticket pulled for screwing around with client funds and not tending to business, I thought I remembered that the state had pulled his license. I may be wrong, I'll have to go back through the record on it.

As far as Vieira is concerned, my understanding is that his legal training was in some variation of business law, and while he may have argued a case before the Supreme Court, that doesn't make him a constitutional scholar or specialist, and certainly not in the sense he was being put forward here.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
LPC
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by LPC »

I'm trying to clean up old emails, and ran across an email I received on 7/6/2013 from a "Michael Jameson" regarding my Tax Protester FAQ.

Suffice it to say that his writing skills have not improved. It's a style I would have to describe as "vehement incoherence."
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
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The Observer
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by The Observer »

Well, give him some credit for maintaining his grudge against your FAQ for nearly two years, despite his inability to prove it wrong.
"I could be dead wrong on this" - Irwin Schiff

"Do you realize I may even be delusional with respect to my income tax beliefs? " - Irwin Schiff
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by Judge Roy Bean »

LPC wrote:... It's a style I would have to describe as "vehement incoherence."
Now, that has to be the catch-phrase of the year! 8)

We should adopt "VI" as a moniker and someone should design a smiley for it.
The Honorable Judge Roy Bean
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grixit
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Re: Indirect Taxes Imposed Directly

Post by grixit »

"Vehement Incoherence" is the title of the latest Ozzy Osborne album.
Three cheers for the Lesser Evil!

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
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