The Sadness of Delusions

[LPC]

I was chatting with someone in a store a few weeks ago and, when I mentioned I was a trust and estates lawyer, he said he had a trust problem he'd like to consult with me about.

Well, he called yesterday and, as he was describing the problem, I suddenly realized he had said something about treasury bills secured by his birth certificate. I let him talk on a while longer, hoping I had mis-heard him, but he said a few more things that were clearly redemption-type phrases, including a reference to him being tax exempt, and I finally realized that I was talking to a natural, home-grown, sovereign-citizen type crazy.

Not knowing how to explain it gently or persuasively, I told him flat out that what he was saying was crazy, and he was the victim of a scam.

He talked for awhile longer about his financial problems and personal problems, and all the research and work he had done on these trusts and all of the paperwork, and it was clear to me that, despite having already been kicked by a mule two or three times, he hadn't yet learned anything. He still thought that there was some value there if he could just find the right filing or the right document to fix whatever he had done wrong.

So I told him as firmly but gently as I could that I could not help him. And I wished him luck and the conversation ended.

And I still feel sad about it. From the point of view of legal education, I was probably the ideal person to help him, but it's not about law and not about education, and I didn't want to waste my time trying.

[NYGman]

When people have devoted time and effort to something they believe is right no amount of logic will bring them back. With few exception, they get to a point in their "learning process" where they have bought in so hard, that there is no turning back, they are committed to the path. I fear there is little you can do at that point, but watch, as the law takes its course. Hopefully that process or the resulting fines and or jail will help sway. If you can contact family, that may help, but I fear there really are little options.

[noblepa]

It is sad, but your story also serves as a reminder that the people that are discussed on this website are real, flesh and blood human beings. No, I'm not bringing up the strawman arguments.

Its just that, when we read about them here, or other similar websites, its easy to dehumanize them. Your would-be client sounds like a poor guy in financial trouble, who is desperate to get out and has fallen for the gurus' cons. Hopefully, he finds out that he's being led down the garden path to ruin before it is too late.

The ones who peddle this crap, on the other hand . . .

[The Observer]

He still thought that there was some value there if he could just find the right filing or the right document to fix whatever he had done wrong

And I suspect that he also thought if he just talked to or found the right attorney, he would get affirmation of what he wanted to believe in the first place.

I doubt that there was any chance of you being able to persuade him how wrong he really was. You did the right thing.

[fortinbras]

I have had similar experiences, trying to advise people in legal trouble to discard their SovCit errors which are only making their situation worse (e.g., trying to use the Phantom Amendment to disqualify the judge and opposing lawyer, instead of buckling down to the merits of the case). It seems hopeless and I feel like beating my head against a wall. Even when these people are clearly in the wrong or guilty of something, sensible & professional legal argument might have softened the penalties.

[notorial dissent]

I think Observer is right here, having seen the same thing myself happen to people I knew who got mired in this sort of fantasy and rather than admit they had made a mistake they went looking for someone, a lawyer, to tell them they were right and just not doing it quite right. Needless to say they didn't listen and eventually did crash and burn, badly.

[davids]

The one I always get is the criticism that if you aren't embracing the sovereign woo, that means you are "thinking inside the box" or "acting like a lawyer." There are a significant number of fools out there who think you should hire a non lawyer to do your legal work, because ???

[fortinbras]

I ask them if they'd want a rank amateur to walk into a hospital and do surgery on people, and they don't see the analogy.

[Judge Roy Bean]

To most of those I have encountered, "the law" is a cabal and the reason the recently-discovered "secrets" don't work when the game runs its course is the lawyers and judges don't want lay people to get out of control so they play by another set of rules.

This mythology is a convenience for those who have made bad decisions about any number of issues, almost always financially-related.

When things go wrong, blame must be assigned, and for some, accepting responsibility just isn't going to happen - there must be external forces at work, even if they have to be invented or better yet, found on the internet. Finding other believers is somehow very comforting, even if it ultimately leads to their doom.

[The Observer]

When things go wrong, blame must be assigned, and for some, accepting responsibility just isn't going to happen - there must be external forces at work, even if they have to be invented or better yet, found on the internet. Finding other believers is somehow very comforting, even if it ultimately leads to their doom.

What he said.

[Dick Dastardly]

And this why I so utterly despise the "guru" types, don't know where
This particular fellow found his inspiration and encouragement, but likely there was some sleazy guru along the way.