UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by daveBeeston »

GH132 wrote:
daveBeeston wrote:Thanks for the link to the full judgement.

It is very clear and easy to understand and as above shows he lost on all counts he brought before the court.
How those advising the Crawford family see this as a win is simply beyond me, the only way it could have been clearer was if the Judge had written across the pages in big red crayon MR.TOM CRAWFORD YOU HAVE LOST YOUR CASE MOVE OUT OF B&B'S HOUSE.

No, red is the colour of the devil, so that would be the court admitting that they were evil, and therefore fraudulent, and by writing in red they are therefore accepting that they are wrong and that Tom has won !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I never thought of that :twisted: I just hope they don't read my post and interpret it as fact and that the Judge has written that on the documents in invisible ink... :whistle:
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by NYGman »

Normal, make sure to lock the word document so no one can edit it. I am not sure on all features of google drive, but it does allow for group edits. Now that the link to your Google docs post in on GOOFy, someone may try to edit it, and insert things that were never there, or edit a point. However, it would be interesting if you can turn on notations, so that we can mark it up with comments, but again, no clue how to do that....
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by JonnyL »

the judgement must be spreading, all the admins are amazingly quiet on all the facebook forums.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by JonnyL »

NYGman wrote:Normal, make sure to lock the word document so no one can edit it. I am not sure on all features of google drive, but it does allow for group edits. Now that the link to your Google docs post in on GOOFy, someone may try to edit it, and insert things that were never there, or edit a point. However, it would be interesting if you can turn on notations, so that we can mark it up with comments, but again, no clue how to do that....
I think it's set at view only, just managed to paste it into word doc in case someone kills it.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by Hercule Parrot »

exiledscouser wrote:This has not gone unnoticed over at Goodf as someone has already pasted a link to the judgement.

http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... VpHMWbTXMI

Standby for recriminations and denial.
No, they've just deleted it to ensure that the rank & file GOOFy's never see the truth.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by JonnyL »

Hercule Parrot wrote:
exiledscouser wrote:This has not gone unnoticed over at Goodf as someone has already pasted a link to the judgement.

http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... VpHMWbTXMI

Standby for recriminations and denial.
No, they've just deleted it to ensure that the rank & file GOOFy's never see the truth.
It's still there on page 6.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by Hercule Parrot »

You're right Jonny - I had an old browser window open on that thread, and misinterpreted it.

My apologies to the mods on GOOFy, for questioning their integrity..... :haha:
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by slowsmile »

JonnyL wrote: I think it's set at view only, just managed to paste it into word doc in case someone kills it.
Just use the "File / Download As" option to save a copy.

Tom lost big style - he didn't even come second - he was still at the starting post when B&B crossed the finish line.

Have saved a copy as a pdf as well.
Last edited by slowsmile on Mon May 18, 2015 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by rumpelstilzchen »

You have to hand it to Ebert. He's good. If he can sell that as a win he can sell anything.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by JonnyL »

slowsmile wrote:
JonnyL wrote: I think it's set at view only, just managed to paste it into word doc in case someone kills it.
Just use the "File / Download As" option to save a copy.

Tom lost big style - he didn't even come second - he was still at the starting post when B&B crossed the finish line.

Have saved a copy as a pdf as well.
Done it! I find anything Gmail baffling tbh

Yes you're right, the case never got going. I've read a lot of judgements in my time and that really was one of the easiest to understand that I've seen.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by Hercule Parrot »

daveBeeston wrote:I never thought of that :twisted: I just hope they don't read my post and interpret it as fact and that the Judge has written that on the documents in invisible ink... :whistle:
Dave, can you get a link to the judgement onto the Nottingham Post comments?

https://infotomb.com/cixyk is a pdf version of the judgement.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by JonnyL »

rumpelstilzchen wrote:You have to hand it to Ebert. He's good. If he can sell that as a win he can sell anything.
My head is hurting as to how they're going to try and spin the judgement in this video we're waiting for later in the week. The Crawford camp backed down earlier on suggestions they would release the full judgement soon, there's nowhere for them to go now, and it's clear from the judgement this could have been potentially resolved 16 years ago, but there's a history of missed payments etc. It's possible they were hoping the house would be worth a fortune in 25 years and by simply selling it, paying off the capital and buying something else was a possibility.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by PeanutGallery »

Ok reading the Judgement, the first bit of note is a line in 14:
Mr Crawford said that as far as he was concerned he had made all payments required of him. He believed that the monthly payments they were making to Bradford & Bingley included the endowment premium.
I think this explains exactly how Tom got into this mess, the product he obtained from the bank, an endowment mortgage, required him to make two payments. He only ever claims to have made one. It seems likely that this was through ignorance.

26 then further clarifies the position regarding the changing of the mortgage
Fifthly, in 1999 Bradford & Bingley offered to move the Crawfords to a repayment mortgage but the Crawfords refused. This is important because Mr Crawford’s case has been that Bradford & Bingley changed his mortgage to repayment without his agreement. Today the position has been clarified. It is clear that Bradford & Bingley offered to convert the mortgage to repayment and it is agreed that Mr Crawford refused this. However Bradford & Bingley did not unilaterally change the type of mortgage the Crawfords had. I observe that in many ways the refusal by Mr Crawford to take up a repayment mortgage has been the source of this problem.
Then turning to 30 we find
Bradford & Bingley have information from Phoenix Group (successors to Royal Life) indicating that their records show that endowment policy premium payments were received from the account of S A Crawford (Mrs Crawford) up to and including 25 June 1991. There is no record of any payments thereafter and the policy was surrendered on 22nd July 1992 with a surrender payment of £178.75. There is a credit to the Crawford’s mortgage account of £178.75 on 23rd July 1992.
Which disputes the theory I first advanced above, but shows that Tom and Sue did know what the endowment was and surrendered it, crediting the payment towards the mortgage. Perhaps by then they had become confused about what the policy was for and decided to reduce their outgoings by removing it, we don't know and can only speculate.

At 40 the Judge addresses the issue of the mortgage account numbers changing, it seems to be for the reason I had theorised earlier in the thread. The Judge notes that he has had experience of these changes in the past and does not seem surprised by this.
This was something of a parting shot from Mr Crawford at the end of the hearing which he says supports his contention that the statements of account are, to say the least, suspect. I am not prepared to go that far. I know from other cases that mortgage account numbers do sometimes change with the merger of lenders or of record keeping systems. In addition the numbers are not completely different, the basis of one can be seen in the other.
62 is damning to Tom's claim and shows that he may not have been scrupulously honest
Attention is drawn to the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and in particular s.10. This is concerned with secondary contracts which seek to evade the provisions of the Act. Mr Crawford’s reliance upon the 1977 Act is premised on a unilateral change in his mortgage conditions undertaken by Bradford & Bingley. However this point is misconceived. One of the agreed facts in this case is that there was no change in mortgage to a capital repayment. The terms of the mortgage remained as they had started out and there is no secondary contract.
82 provides the Judges feelings on this matter
This is dealt with by what has gone before. As I have already observed a key mutually agreed fact in this case is that the Crawfords’ mortgage did not change. Sadly it would have been so much better for them if it had.
92 is the paragraph we didn't see, which gives perspective on 91 (the one that tells us computers should be slaves)
However none of this helps Mr Crawford in relation to possession. The entitlement to possession is triggered by arrears amounting to two monthly instalments and no-one suggests that such qualifying arrears did not exist both at the time the claim was issued and on the date of the Order.
When read in totality, which it isn't that hard to do (it's well written and plain English) it is not good news for the Crawford family.

A few other interesting observations, UKAR wanted this judgement to be made, they knew about the protests and the difficulty they have had in enforcing the possession order. Therefore they did not dispute allowing Tom to appeal out of time, I believe they knew that had they disputed that it would have caused them further problems. They wanted a clear judgement so that they could draw a line under this.

They got the Judgement. But the mob decided to draw a different conclusion at odds with it. How this will play out is yet to be seen, but I wouldn't think it is anywhere near over.
Last edited by PeanutGallery on Mon May 18, 2015 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by rumpelstilzchen »

JonnyL wrote: I've read a lot of judgements in my time and that really was one of the easiest to understand that I've seen.
Isn't it strange how we can all see things differently?
Re: Tom & Sue's VICTORY EXPLAINED!!!!!!!!!
Postby AliveAndFree » Mon May 18, 2015 9:02 pm

I can understand Tom's victory perfectly. People just need to read between the lines to see it as clear as day.
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by littleFred »

JonnyL wrote:Guy made it very clear that he expects payment for his time if the judgements he helps people with are successful, now this is why I believe they're still spinning Tom the lie that he won, as it's clear that Guy is expecting some kind of payment from the Crawfords...
Ah, a "no win, no fee" arrangement. Perhaps Mr Ebert has a similar arrangement, and thus he has to pretend that Tom has won. Dispicable.


Many thanks, Normal Wisdom, for the judgement. I hope Tom's supporters read it.

I've only skim-read it, but a few points:

This is the unapproved judgement, not the official version as handed down on 14 May. I doubt that the official version would have substantive differences.

I wonder if the judge knew that Tom's McKenzie Friend Mr O'Bernicia was aka Michael Waugh, the son mentioned in the cited Bank of Scotland v Waugh case, and Michael tried to pay a £2m mortgage with a promissory note for £3m.

B&B asked for "permission out of time" to be granted. They didn't want to rely on that ground.

Para 30: Sue Crawford paid separately the premiums for the endowment policy. Payments stopped in June 1991, and the policy was cashed in in July 1992, for £178.75, which went towards his mortgage. Why did she do this? I assume because finances were tight, and she didn't realise that policy if continued was to repay the capital.

I hadn't known about the extra £5000 borrowed, on a capital-repayment basis. This explains some of the confusion.

The take-home message for me is that the Crawford took out initial loan of approx £41,000, and only ever paid interest on that. They ceased their endowment policy. After 25 years of paying interest, they mistakenly thought they had repaid all the capital, so they stopped paying interest. In fact, they had repaid only £178.75 of capital.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by rumpelstilzchen »

tm169 wrote: [snip]

The subsequent paragraphs are damning too:

[snip]

94 It is not the totality of the debt which leads to the possession order. As set out above in paragraph 50, once there are two months arrears, Bradford & Bingley are entitled to possession. Once those two months arrears are proved the court must make a possession order. The total of the arrears is irrelevant to the making of that order.
That, I fear, is one paragraph that the GOOFers will never understand.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by PeanutGallery »

littleFred wrote:Para 30: Sue Crawford paid separately the premiums for the endowment policy. Payments stopped in June 1991, and the policy was cashed in in July 1992, for £178.75, which went towards his mortgage. Why did she do this? I assume because finances were tight, and she didn't realise that policy if continued was to repay the capital.
I would think that likely. It's possible that Sue might not have known what the policy was, or what it was intended to do and in an effort to reduce their monthly outgoings surrendered the policy and offset it against the mortgage. The only other reason would be that Sue had been told the policy wouldn't cover the mortgage and decided to get rid of it, thinking that they would cross the bridge of repaying the capital when it came up.
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by JonnyL »

rumpelstilzchen wrote:
JonnyL wrote: I've read a lot of judgements in my time and that really was one of the easiest to understand that I've seen.
Isn't it strange how we can all see things differently?
Re: Tom & Sue's VICTORY EXPLAINED!!!!!!!!!
Postby AliveAndFree » Mon May 18, 2015 9:02 pm

I can understand Tom's victory perfectly. People just need to read between the lines to see it as clear as day.
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
Side's are splitting!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by Hercule Parrot »

PaidShill wrote:The sad part about this whole affair, is that Tom would have had enough equity in his home to do something legal to save it. Instead, he listens to you cretins, and takes the bank to task, racking up untold legal fees, the net result, he will be homeless and penniless thanks to you.
http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... VpHMWbTXMI

I wonder how long that will survive on the GOOFyBoard?
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Re: UK - Tom Crawford Calls For Help

Post by PeanutGallery »

I'm surprised it's lasted longer than five minutes.
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