Small claims court

[Number Six]

I had a theft at a local oil change and car wash last week. So I went through the proper process; thoroughly search everywhere that the valuable could have gone, one's memory about the day's events, and so forth. You don't want to accuse anyone falsely. As soon as I went back to the oil change place the woman who does the vehicle intake came out almost before I told her the valuable coin was missing and said that because they did not do interior or other cleaning how could it have been taken? A $250 rare coin. The same day I filed a police report and the cop went through the surveillance feed at the place both at intake and where the vehicle goes for the oil change up on a lift. He did not see anything but admitted that the video quality wasn't that good and clearly the inside of the vehicle where the item was taken was blocked from view. I also checked with area pawn shops and a coin shop and no dice on that.

In the state of CT the small claims court fee is now $90, recoverable if successful. Is it worth doing? Some years ago with non-paying customers in contract work it was a good option at around $40, and it got results to file, if even I got a call from "People's Court" wanting to have the case on their show. I declined for obvious reasons. Wapner was better than "Judge Judy" by a huge qualitative leap. In NY the cost of small court filings are graduated starting at $10 or so under $1000. I'd like to do a search of case law to see who succeeded and who failed in larceny claims. Any advice here?

[Judge Roy Bean]

You still bear the burden of proof, even in small claims.

The biggest problem you have is proving that you didn't simply lose it and you're not just looking for an opportunity to recoup your loss.

Something you didn't mention, are there the ubiquitous "Not responsible for blah, blah blah" signs posted on the premises?

I realize there are usually deductibles, but this may be one of the things you want to take up with your own insurance company.

[Hyrion]

You still bear the burden of proof, even in small claims.

The biggest problem you have is proving that you didn't simply lose it

I agree, those two points right there are the core.

If the only evidence you have is:

the woman who does the vehicle intake came out almost before I told her the valuable coin was missing and said that because they did not do interior or other cleaning how could it have been taken

As a Jury member, I'd find that to be insufficient to reasonably prove that woman (or the company if you target the company, or another person if you specificaly identify them) was responsible for the missing coin.

I say Jury member because it's far more likely for me to be that then a Judge having never had any desire to be part of the Judiciary (although that could conceivably change in the future). Although - I believe most (if not all) small claims civil courts are Judge decided.

Some questions that should be asked:

• Are you absolutely sure the coin was in the vehicle when you turned the vehicle over? In other words, you explicitly saw the coin in the (cup holder, tray, whatever) as your car left your posession.

• Along with the queston above, in the event you are not absolutely sure: Is it possible it went missing before that place of business?

• A question if you did see the coin: did you happen to specifically look for the coin once your vehicle was returned to you?

• If not: Is it possible it went missing after you left that place of business?

Sad to say: but if you can not positively identify you saw the coin in it's location as you turned your vehicle over and explicitly looked for the coin when you got the vehicle back - then there are other possibilities that could be the answer.

I can say from experience:

• no matter how much your accuser believes you are the guilty party, it's a horrible experience to have to defend yourself against a false accusation

Especially if the accusor has virtually no evidence beyond their own suspicions.

If you realize just how bad that really would be: Imagine how bad it'd be being an innocent wrongly convicted - or worse, being the person who finds out s/he wrongly convicted someone. That's the core reason I decided in my teens as I was reviewing different careers I didn't want to be a Lawyer. Ending up on the wrong side of that ethical position - even accidently.

[Number Six]

The problem of someone in authority making an honest judgment comes down to evidence. So even if I have a perfectly clean record and the two people who went into my vehicle had rap sheets how is proof established of the alleged theft? As the judge, I would be in the same position of asking what evidence is available? Circumstantial may be good enough.

[Judge Roy Bean]

The problem of someone in authority making an honest judgment comes down to evidence. So even if I have a perfectly clean record and the two people who went into my vehicle had rap sheets how is proof established of the alleged theft? As the judge, I would be in the same position of asking what evidence is available? Circumstantial may be good enough.

You didn't answer the question about the loss liability signs.

[Number Six]

I'll go by there and check.

Still a sign does not immunize a business against breaking laws or having their workers do so. If a bunch of people are staying at a place of lodging or a cruise ship; their placing "ladies lock your room doors at night some men can't help themselves" does not immunize the business against what follows.

[Judge Roy Bean]

I'll go by there and check.

Still a sign does not immunize a business against breaking laws or having their workers do so. If a bunch of people are staying at a place of lodging or a cruise ship; their placing "ladies lock your room doors at night some men can't help themselves" does not immunize the business against what follows.

Two very different situations.

I think you're conflating civil and criminal issues. Keep in mind - you're not a prosecutor; the police investigated and apparently declined to charge or arrest anyone, therefore, it isn't larceny. It's now a civil matter and such "no-liability/not responsible for loss" warning notifications will, in most cases, effectively provide immunity to the owner/operator. By patronizing a business with those kinds of notices, you accept their terms. (Those terms may also be on the receipt.)

But the question remains, how can you prove you had a loss? Until the actual, authentic coin shows up somewhere and can be traced back to the scoundrel/source, it's simply an unprovable accusation.

It's yet another lesson in not leaving valuables in automobiles - for any reason.

[Number Six]

I went by there today and saw nothing in plain view warning customers that their stuff could be stolen if left in the vehicles or any warning as it would probably scare customers away.

[Arthur Rubin]

I am not a lawyer, etc., etc.

In many car washes in California, you place your order with the attendant, who then hands you a bill, and sets up the car. You then take the bill up to the cashier, pay it and get a receipt. You turn in that receipt to reclaim your car.

The disclaimer is on the back of the bill.

On the other hand, the disclaimer at most immunizes the owner, not his employees.

If the item was there when you turned the car over to the first attendant, and not there when you picked it up, there is a legal "maxim" that states that if you can establish that one of a number of people damaged you, you can sue all of them and let them sort who owes you. You might need to look up the Latin name, and it might not apply in small claims court.

It's still just your word that the coin is missing at all, not to mention specifically between the time you turned the car over to them and when it was returned.

In other words, I have no idea whether you would likely prevail in small claims court. I'm just bringing up other matters which might be relevant.

[Number Six]

Thanks for those thoughts.

A couple points learned the hard way is that a police report will usually turn up the names and addresses of possible suspects. In this case worker #1 gave their address as an emergency homeless shelter and worker #2 gave their address as the car wash. I emailed the cop a couple times whether he had her actual address, no response. Irresponsible, but par for the course. The cops are paid whether they do their jobs or not, in this state they are guaranteed whopping salaries, pensions and benefits by the unions. Cops could be more thorough in ascertaining all potential suspects and their addresses. Forget about getting specific, step by step advice on any site, whether it is a paid subscription site or other one. If you don't care enough to dig--no one will. Case after case I have witnessed over the years in various people's lives, seeking good advice is like mining for real gold. Unless someone has the determination, timely motivation to get to the bottom of cases, they will just be neglected.

Another point is that if you get the id of potential suspects a background search may turn up relevant details. Lexis-nexis is a powerful search engine, but is limited to professionals, there are others. Putting pressure on potential suspects in a legal fashion is a heck of a lot better than taking the law into your own hands and I have seen many people advise that in many cases.

[Judge Roy Bean]

... I emailed the cop a couple times whether he had her actual address, no response. Irresponsible, but par for the course.

Nonsense. The person you refer to is no longer a suspect or even a person of interest. Revealing their address would be irresponsible and the reality of life is, the officer has far more important things to deal with.

The cops are paid whether they do their jobs or not, in this state they are guaranteed whopping salaries, pensions and benefits by the unions.

Gosh - the ones I know should be headed to Connecticut post haste!

Cops could be more thorough in ascertaining all potential suspects and their addresses.

Sure they should - if the matter was more significant than the ALLEGED loss of a collectible coin that might have simply been misplaced.

... Putting pressure on potential suspects in a legal fashion is a heck of a lot better than taking the law into your own hands and I have seen many people advise that in many cases.

"Pressure?" Just what do you have in mind?

Not to be unkind, but you now seem to be consumed with blaming the police for what amounts to your failure to exercise reasonable caution in protecting your property.

[Number Six]

... I emailed the cop a couple times whether he had her actual address, no response. Irresponsible, but par for the course.

Nonsense. The person you refer to is no longer a suspect or even a person of interest. Revealing their address would be irresponsible and the reality of life is, the officer has far more important things to deal with.

The cops are paid whether they do their jobs or not, in this state they are guaranteed whopping salaries, pensions and benefits by the unions.

Gosh - the ones I know should be headed to Connecticut post haste!

Cops could be more thorough in ascertaining all potential suspects and their addresses.

I have learned to be less trusting of vehicle service personnel, but I have never had a situation before where an item left in the vehicle went missing after service.

What is your legal experience "Judge Roy Bean" from what I heard you were just a justice of the peace.

As for the police and other "civil servant" salaries, try this list on for size: http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/ar ... 259530.php

Competence--are you kidding? The police have a massive PR problem, case after case they fall short and rarely earn their salaries. $100K plus, and when you add in pensions and benefits it turns out to be at least 50% more than their published salaries.

[The Observer]

Competence--are you kidding? The police have a massive PR problem, case after case they fall short and rarely earn their salaries. $100K plus, and when you add in pensions and benefits it turns out to be at least 50% more than their published salaries.

Other than the fact your statement is completely anecdotal and has no proof behind it, you are just looking to blame the police for not recovering a coin that you failed to protect. Police officers who follow the laws, policies and regulations are still not going to be able to arrest a suspect simply because evidence is not available to allow an arrest, let alone a successful prosecution. And that is what appears to be the case here. You cannot provide any evidence that the coin was in the car other than your testimony and any potential suspect is going to be able to match that testimony with their own testimony. So why should an investigating officer put their career and reputation on the line over one person's word versus another?

Yet that is what you are implying that the police should do by "putting pressure" on the available suspect(s). Are you willing to live in a society where the police should be able to haul you in and start applying "presssure" merely because some other person has accused you of a crime without any evidence? How long in this scenario before you start blaming the police for being too eager and aggressive in doing this job?

As for "earning" their salaries, there is always the potential slacker who can be found in the police force and an argument can be made that he or she is not pulling their weight. But the vast number of officers serve faithfully. That includes working shifts so that you are protected at night, patrolling in areas of the city where you would never dare tread, encountering and dealing people that you would flee from in a heartbeat, and putting their life on the line every day, even when they are off-duty. And they get to be second-guessed, criticized, and demeaned by the citizenry when they have to enforce the law - the citizenry that they are sworn to protect.

How much would we have to pay you to do those things on a daily basis? Could we get you to do that for less than what officers are being paid currently?

[Jeffrey]

Just skimming the thread, it sounds like you're going to have to just deal with the loss. You don't have any evidence that the coin was in the car when it entered the car wash.

[Number Six]

Competence--are you kidding? The police have a massive PR problem, case after case they fall short and rarely earn their salaries. $100K plus, and when you add in pensions and benefits it turns out to be at least 50% more than their published salaries.

Other than the fact your statement is completely anecdotal and has no proof behind it, you are just looking to blame the police for not recovering a coin that you failed to protect. Police officers who follow the laws, policies and regulations are still not going to be able to arrest a suspect simply because evidence is not available to allow an arrest, let alone a successful prosecution. And that is what appears to be the case here. You cannot provide any evidence that the coin was in the car other than your testimony and any potential suspect is going to be able to match that testimony with their own testimony. So why should an investigating officer put their career and reputation on the line over one person's word versus another?

Yet that is what you are implying that the police should do by "putting pressure" on the available suspect(s). Are you willing to live in a society where the police should be able to haul you in and start applying "presssure" merely because some other person has accused you of a crime without any evidence? How long in this scenario before you start blaming the police for being too eager and aggressive in doing this job?

As for "earning" their salaries, there is always the potential slacker who can be found in the police force and an argument can be made that he or she is not pulling their weight. But the vast number of officers serve faithfully. That includes working shifts so that you are protected at night, patrolling in areas of the city where you would never dare tread, encountering and dealing people that you would flee from in a heartbeat, and putting their life on the line every day, even when they are off-duty. And they get to be second-guessed, criticized, and demeaned by the citizenry when they have to enforce the law - the citizenry that they are sworn to protect.

How much would we have to pay you to do those things on a daily basis? Could we get you to do that for less than what officers are being paid currently?

Jumping to a bunch of unsupported conclusions as to my intentions, I was just responding to the judge.

In thefts there and many helpful steps; doing thorough and exhaustive searches of ones belongings, memory, etc. to ascertain whether or not you may have been mistaken.

If you are still sure of something being stolen, go to the business to report it and discuss the matter as I did.

Then do a police report as the business recommended. The cop actually did a good job with the report but should get IDs on potential suspects and real addresses. All evidence of the missing object should be given to the police as I have done.

Additional searches on past history of the business and possible suspects may turn up relevant patterns. Many, many people tell those that are missing stuff that it was their own fault and they need to forget about it. I advise differently; that people should follow legal procedure just in case. I have known several collectibles dealers who were victims of smash and grabs recovering nothing with a couple exceptions. If a loss is great enough hiring a private detective may be logical, as I have never heard of police recovering stolen goods in such cases, it was more the collector community and their diligence that got results.

[Judge Roy Bean]

... The cop actually did a good job with the report but should get IDs on potential suspects and real addresses.

Given your assessment of the hourly wages of officers, how much time should they collectively spend on an alleged loss of a $250 coin?

All evidence of the missing object should be given to the police as I have done.

What "evidence" did you give them? Seriously, other than your claim, what tangible evidence did you give them that the allegedly missing item of property was/is no longer in your possession?

Additional searches on past history of the business and possible suspects may turn up relevant patterns.

And the relevance of supposed "past history" is, what, exactly? Do they have a history of hiring known criminals? Good luck proving that. Are there any convictions of former or present employees? How do you prove they were negligent in hiring them? Are they supposed to be doing background checks on day laborers?

Do you really expect detectives to convince the local prosecutor to go to a judge and obtain search warrants and assemble the swat team to serve those warrants and search the premises? Are there even premises to search?

You apparently have been watching too much television. There is no CSI or major case squad involvement for people who leave their valuables in a car.

Again, the police found nothing that would justify going to the prosecutor. You have no criminal case. You have to prove the business was negligent. To do that you have to not only prove it was their negligence that resulted in your loss, but more importantly, that there was a loss.

You've indicated you provided evidence of the loss (that they didn't deem sufficient). And again, that evidence is, what exactly?

[The Observer]

Jumping to a bunch of unsupported conclusions as to my intentions, I was just responding to the judge.

There was no jumping to conclusions, I was responding to the comments you made about police officers not earning their pay, mismanaging criminal investigations and citizen complaints, and the implication that they are overpaid. You made those comments, and I think I responded fairly to the broad strokes you were painting. Now you are trying to pretend that I somehow misunderstood you.

Many, many people tell those that are missing stuff that it was their own fault and they need to forget about it. I advise differently;

Yet, if such individuals had taken responsibility for their valuables and had secured them properly, they would most likely not need to wade through the steps you are outlining.

You've indicated you provided evidence of the loss (that they didn't deem sufficient). And again, that evidence is, what exactly?

That question has been asked several times and in several different ways in this thread. The fact that Number Six has not provided that answer might be an indicator that he or she realizes that there is no evidence of a loss. It might also explain why he/she is falling back on blaming the law for their loss.

[Number Six]

One piece of evidence is the invoice of the stolen valuable; collectibles license with the state; my word and a clean record; the time line I provided with a written description of events surrounding the case. I stand by my side of the case, the snarky comments are inappropriate for moderators, but par for the course.

[The Observer]

One piece of evidence is the invoice of the stolen valuable;...

Which only proves that at one point in time you bought the coin. It does not prove that you still owned the coin at the time of the alleged theft, that the coin was in the vehicle at the time it was in the car wash, or that anyone other than you removed the coin from the vehicle.

...[C]ollectibles license with the state;...

Which only proves you collect, buy and sell collectible coins. That does not prove you had a $250 coin in the car when it went through the wash.

...[M]y word...

That and $3.50 will get you a cup of overpriced joe at a local Starbucks. Not that your word isn't any good, but it boils down to your word vs. the carwash owner's word. He or she most likely think their word is as good as yours, if not better.

...[T]he time line I provided with a written description of events surrounding the case.

Which is based, again, on your word. All of this will prove nothing in a court of law. You have already been advised of some of the sizeable barriers you will need to overcome in small claims court in order to receive a ruling that holds the owner liable for your loss. Those barriers dramatically increase in trying to secure a criminal conviction where there can be no reasonable doubt in order to convict a person of theft.

The bottom line is that you have next to nothing to prove your allegations; and the justice system is not going to spend thousands and thousands of dollars in pursuit of a $250 loss for which there is no hard evidence to show that the coin was in the car at the time and that it was stolen. De minimis non curat lex.

I stand by my side of the case, the snarky comments are inappropriate for moderators, but par for the course.

Stand as much as you want, but you will be standing there for a long time and will get no coin or recompense for it. This is simply a case where you are not happy with the answer you got; you already had your mind made up about the situation and were simply looking for people to agree with you. Instead of being gracious and accepting the advice and information that was provided by people early on in this thread (and thereby learning something for the future), you instead decided to argue about it, tell these people in so many words they were wrong, and blame others for not curing a problem that you had in part created.

The irony of this is that this is the same type of behavior that we have discussed elsewhere on the board in regards to tax protesters. It is my pet theory that such behavior is not peculiar to these types, but is a behavior that humans engage in all sorts of endeavors.

By the way, snarky comments have always been part and parcel of this site, regardless of whether a moderator or someone else posts them.These tend to show up when someone is being stubborn, narrow-minded and/or rebuffing the advice that they had asked for. I would suggest that if this is not your cup of tea, that you seek other venues at which to participate. I would think that you would be far happier.

[Arthur Rubin]

There are snarky comments on all sides; the legal maxim I mentioned above does not apply to criminal theft; hence, even if the police had sufficient evidence that a theft occurred, they might not have sufficient evidence to even have reasonable suspicion that a specific person committed the theft.

In other words, in spite of the fact that the police do not seem to be helping you, Number Six, they may be doing their job properly. However, you don't need their address to sue the employees, in small claims court, or otherwise. In many states, you can hire an unrelated person to serve them at the car wash. If you have a legitimate claim against the owner, you would need to locate him or his legal agent in order to sue him. And the cost of service (as well as the cost of filing) can be added to the claim. (If you serve a party which the judge finds unrelated to the case; e.g., if you serve the owner, but there is no legitimate claim against the owner, the judge may very well refuse to include the cost of serving the owner in the recovery, even if you win.)

Again, I don't know if you have sufficient evidence to win in small claims court, but you undoubtedly have a real claim, unlike many in the Sovereign threads. I could be wrong, but I don't think any of the posters are real lawyers. It's up to you.

I, personally, do not think it's worth the effort, considering the probability of failure, but I don't consider success impossible.