The Oregon lien case

[Demosthenes]

County recording of IRS tax liens protested

JOHN SOWELL, jsowell@newsreview.info
September 10, 2007

A group of area tax protesters accused Douglas County commissioners last week of joining with the federal Internal Revenue Service to illegally seize private property.

Members of the Oregon Lawmen ad hoc Steering Committee rejected an explanation from a county attorney that liens submitted by the IRS are being properly recorded by the County Clerk’s Office and said they would hold Commissioners Doug Robertson, Marilyn Kittelman and Joe Laurance personally responsible for perpetuating a fraud against the people.

Last month, the group asked the commissioners to stop processing IRS documents submitted to the county as liens. They said the paperwork should appear only as a “Notice of Lien” because the federal agency had failed to comply with Oregon law on perfecting a legal lien.

“You’re violating due process rights. You’re stealing people’s property. It’s got to stop,” Loma Wharton, the group’s chairwoman, told commissioners during a nearly two-hour meeting Friday afternoon that attracted about 30 people.

Nena Cook, a Portland attorney under contract with the county, told the commissioners that neither the county nor the state of Oregon has the authority to alter how federal tax liens are filed or what language is included in those liens. She told the commissioners that the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution preempts state laws in conflict with federal internal revenue statutes.

Cook, who previously defended the county in the lawsuit filed by former Museum Director Stacey McLaughlin, provided the commissioners with a seven-page letter from John McCormick, a member of her firm, Sussman Shank, who specializes in tax code.

In his letter, dated Thursday, McCormick refuted seven points raised by the Lawman group in its contention that the IRS wasn’t following the law. A copy of the letter is available by clicking this link:

http://www.newsreview.info/assets/pdf/NR26768910.PDF

Cook also said case law from the U.S. Supreme Court backed up her contention that state statutes cannot impede the power of the IRS to collect taxes through the use of liens.

Under the Internal Revenue Code, Cook said taxpayers have a 90-day period in which they can request a hearing when a case has reached the point where the IRS is going to file a property lien for nonpayment of taxes. She said that’s part of the due process rights provided taxpayers.

Wharton, who told the commissioners the IRS took out a lien against her because she refuses to sign a 1040 tax form, said taxpayers aren’t provided due process rights because the IRS refuses to follow the same procedures required of any other person or entity to enforce contract law in the state of Oregon.

Functionally, Cook said, it doesn’t matter whether the documents recorded by the Clerk’s Office are called a lien or a Notice of Lien, they have the same practical effect.

“You can call it a Notice of Lien, you can call it a lien, you can call it an apple, you can call it an orange. It doesn’t matter what you call it. The IRS is a different judgment creditor than, say, your credit card company,” Cook said.

“If you don’t pay your credit card bill, then that credit card company has to file a lawsuit against you, has to adjudicate the merits in court, has to ultimately get a judgment against you, has to have that recorded, if they want to move against property, and then proceed to collect against that judgment,” she said. “The IRS is not like that judgment creditor. It does not have to do any of those things.”

Wharton disagreed and said her group was prepared to take action against the commissioners to ensure their rights are upheld.

“We’re going to hold each and every one of you and if Nena wants to represent ... you in court on a personal basis for not protecting the people of this county and giving us our due process rights with these liens, then so be it,” Wharton said. “We’re holding your feet to the fire. We’re holding the Clerk’s feet to the fire. We’re holding the sheriff’s feet to the fire.”

Rae Copitka, another member of the group, told the commissioners the tax code doesn’t carry the same weight as law, a point disagreed with by Cook.

“The Internal Revenue Code is law,” Cook said.

Paul Meyer, the county’s staff attorney, suggested the group might raise their concerns in a Douglas County Circuit Court case that involves the same issues. If a judge ruled that the IRS procedures were deficient, he said the group could obtain an order telling the county to stop recording the IRS liens.

Wharton, who at one point accused the courts of being in collusion with the IRS, said her group wasn’t interested in intervening in the court case.

[The Observer]

They said the paperwork should appear only as a “Notice of Lien” because the federal agency had failed to comply with Oregon law on perfecting a legal lien.

Uh...that is how the paperwork reads when filed by the IRS. It clearly says "Notice of Federal Tax Lien" at the top. So what is their beed?

Functionally, Cook said, it doesn’t matter whether the documents recorded by the Clerk’s Office are called a lien or a Notice of Lien, they have the same practical effect.

“You can call it a Notice of Lien, you can call it a lien, you can call it an apple, you can call it an orange. It doesn’t matter what you call it. The IRS is a different judgment creditor than, say, your credit card company,” Cook said.

“If you don’t pay your credit card bill, then that credit card company has to file a lawsuit against you, has to adjudicate the merits in court, has to ultimately get a judgment against you, has to have that recorded, if they want to move against property, and then proceed to collect against that judgment,” she said. “The IRS is not like that judgment creditor. It does not have to do any of those things.”

Yes, indeedy. But then again, you will always have the Van Pelts of the world trying to tell you differently.

Paul Meyer, the county’s staff attorney, suggested the group might raise their concerns in a Douglas County Circuit Court case that involves the same issues. If a judge ruled that the IRS procedures were deficient, he said the group could obtain an order telling the county to stop recording the IRS liens.

Like that would work - what is the basis for a staff attorney believing that county law will trump federal rights already established?

[Quixote]

Functionally, Cook said, it doesn’t matter whether the documents recorded by the Clerk’s Office are called a lien or a Notice of Lien, they have the same practical effect.

“You can call it a Notice of Lien, you can call it a lien, you can call it an apple, you can call it an orange. It doesn’t matter what you call it.

Now she's done it. She has denied the magical powers of words.

[Quixote]

...what is the basis for a staff attorney believing that county law will trump federal rights already established?

What makes you think he believes that? Meyer's suggestion was tantamount (i've always wanted to use that word.) to telling them to come back when pigs fly.

[The Operative]

Paul Meyer, the county’s staff attorney, suggested the group might raise their concerns in a Douglas County Circuit Court case that involves the same issues. If a judge ruled that the IRS procedures were deficient, he said the group could obtain an order telling the county to stop recording the IRS liens.

Like that would work - what is the basis for a staff attorney believing that county law will trump federal rights already established?

It seems the staff attorney has forgotten most of his constitutional law. At least Nena Cook, the other county attorney, remembers the supremacy clause.

Wharton, who at one point accused the courts of being in collusion with the IRS, said her group wasn’t interested in intervening in the court case.

Typical tax protestor delusion. It is obviously all a government conspiracy. If they had simply paid their taxes in the first place, they probably wouldn't even have to argue about the legality of federal tax liens. Of course, a tax protestor never believes it is their fault.

[Demosthenes]

Those of you who aren't familiar with the Oregon mess, it's all over the internet.

For example, the Oregon tps were guests on yesterday's We The People Radio Network show hosted by Badnarik.

http://mp3.wtprn.com/Badnarik07.html

Tue., September 11, 2007: Playlists: M3U | RAM (Individual MP3s: Hr1 Hr2 )
Program #101 Cohosts: Rae Copitka and Loma Wharton, local heroes/heroines/heretics from Douglas County, Oregon

Rae and Loma have presented evidence to the Douglas County (Oregon) Commissioners documenting the fact that the commissioners become personally liable for felony offenses by allowing the IRS to confiscate private property based on NOTICES OF LIEN instead of an actual LIENS. Douglas County had a special meeting to address this issue on September 7th. Rae and Loma have been kind enough to return to share the results of that meeting with us. I strongly encourage you to visit the Douglas County website to download and watch the videos of the public meetings held on August 8th, (starting at 07:45) August 29th, (starting at 23:00) and September 7th (the entire meeting).

Today's callers: Jim/Washington; Tony/Florida; Barney/Oklahoma; Sal/New York; Yahkob/Pennsylvania; Michael/Virginia

[ASITStands]

Quote:
Paul Meyer, the county’s staff attorney, suggested the group might raise their concerns in a Douglas County Circuit Court case that involves the same issues. If a judge ruled that the IRS procedures were deficient, he said the group could obtain an order telling the county to stop recording the IRS liens.

Like that would work - what is the basis for a staff attorney believing that county law will trump federal rights already established?

Presumably, the Lawmen Group would be suing the County Commissioners, which would properly be in a county court.

However, once the court determined it was a federal question, it would need to align its decision with Oregon District and the Ninth Circuit, which would prove interesting for the Lawmen Group.

Seems to me this is an appropriate response when other 'lawmen' groups try to make the same claim in counties across the nation. "Don't like our decision? Take us to court."

[Imalawman]

I would just like to take this moment to deny any involvement with this TP group. Forum name notwithstanding.

I thought the letter written for the commissioners was pretty good. But really, 9 pages to refute TP drivel? Come on, that was a waste of taxpayer money.

[Dezcad]

Those of you who aren't familiar with the Oregon mess, it's all over the internet.

For example, the Oregon tps were guests on yesterday's We The People Radio Network show hosted by Badnarik.

http://mp3.wtprn.com/Badnarik07.html

I watched the county commissioner's hearing and as a result, I wasn't surprised that in this interview they show that they have no clue about lien perfection, the UCC, securities fraud and all they talk about.

My favorite was when one of them (I think it was Loma) stated that an NOFTL has to have a thumbprint of the IRS employee issuing this Notice to be valid- now that is funny.

[.]

Perhaps Van Pelt moved to Oregon.

[Joey Smith]

Members of the Oregon Lawmen ad hoc Steering Committee

[wserra]

It's fun to stay at the N-F-T-L . . .

[LPC]

Wharton, who told the commissioners the IRS took out a lien against her because she refuses to sign a 1040 tax form, ....

The IRS often gets prickly about that kind of stuff.

[Nikki]

How is it possible that these "lawmen" have been ignoring the deep layer of excrement entombing their leader up to his eyeballs?

Conces is about a feather's nudge from spending several years in prison. But he still sends out an unending series of "all is well (but send money)" email messages.

[The Observer]

Seems to me this is an appropriate response when other 'lawmen' groups try to make the same claim in counties across the nation. "Don't like our decision? Take us to court."

No argument there, but what I was differing with was the county attorney telling them they could obtain a court order against the county recording the NFTLs. I don't know if he was being facetious, but I think he shouldn't be saying that an order can be secured when that will not happen, or if it does happen due to error, that he knows would be overturned once it got into the federal venue. I think he should have just limited his statement to: "Take it to court if you don't like it."

[.]

Perhaps he was just trolling Van Pelt.

[notorial dissent]

I may be giving more credit than is due, but I thought the lawyer was being facetious. If she had already told them they were full of hot air, which she had, then sending them off to the county court matter was more a way of getting them out of her hair than anything else, since I don't think she expected anything from that source either, I doubt if they would have believed a judge either, but then it would be someone else's problem.

[Dezcad]

About 2/3rds through the meeting, Rae threatened that they were going to sue the county commissioners personally. One of the commissioners had a great question (especially since these people stated the courts were in collusion with the government), when he asked:

"In what court?"

After the other commissioner stopped chuckling, Rae (obviously startled) says:

"You know what. It just might be the common law People's Court, if thats what it takes."

Rae then sits down.

Oh yeah, those county commissioners must be dreadfully scared of the "common law People's Court"