Timeline - The Crawfords and 3 Fearn Chase

[Jeffrey]

Two things. Someone should archive that GOODF thread in case they take it down and 2. Did Tom go to GOODF before or after he stopped paying the mortgage at the 25 year mark.

[fat frank]

Two things. Someone should archive that GOODF thread in case they take it down and 2. Did Tom go to GOODF before or after he stopped paying the mortgage at the 25 year mark.

before, he was advised on there to stop paying it

http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... bdEbrlRHIX

[Jeffrey]

Ah okay he posts in April 2013 then stops payments in November 2013.

But who tells him to stop payments? In the thread he seems to come up with that idea himself?

At what point does Tom attract the attention of Guy/Bernicia etc and stops simply being another random poster on the board.

[Skeleton]

Do not know when Guy etc got involved with Tom, but it is apparent from his 2nd ever post on GOODF where he mentions wet signatures and using a template provided by Spaniard that he may not have needed much converting to the FMOTL woo, reads like he was already well on his way. The more I read about this man the more it becomes apparent he was very badly advised, but he was a very willing victim.

[hucknallred]

I thought I'd add a bit of historical perspective to this as I too took out an Endowment Mortgage in May 1988.
Although nobody could see what would happen the whole endowment thing was a scandal.
We went to the Derbyshire BS, purely on the basis that we got a free Readers Digest DIY manual for taking out the mortgage with them.

The Capital borrowed was £23510, endowment premium was £29.68. The first monthly payment was £144 which then had MIRAS - Mortgage Interest Relief At Source (mentioned by Godsmark), which gave you 25% or so off the interest rate.

It was variable rate as would the Crawfords have been I suspect, as the interest rates spiked in the early 90s, right around the time the payments stopped on their endowment policy. I know we struggled, so this may have been the trigger to ditch the endowment.

But then rates went on an ever downward trend to the 0.5% they have been for the last 6 years. Our payments eventually fell to below £100 a month by the time we moved house in 2004 & payed off the capital with the new repayment on the new house, but carried on paying the £29.68 a month until it matured in 2013 & got all the proceeds (A lot less than £23k). We also had a successful misselling complaint & got compensation for that.

I've done a chart of UK interest rates from 1988 to now, by my calculations & erring on the side of caution, the Crawfords will have been paying around only £150 a month on that £41k from 2009 onwards. This "We've paid £140,000" is nonsense.

UK Interest rates 1988 to 2012:

[ArthurWankspittle]

Although nobody could see what would happen the whole endowment thing was a scandal.

Yes. Amazing to think that if the Crawfords had kept up the endowment, not only would they have likely paid the capital off, they would have a compensation claim for mis-selling to look forward too.

This "We've paid £140,000" is nonsense.

I appreciate your effort; my background says first check is just to get the calculator out - 140,000 / 25 years / 12 months = 466.67. And they were struggling paying just over 300 a month? So some months they must have been paying over 600 to balance that average? I'd like to see that.
Actually, do you have a total paid figure?

[hucknallred]

Actually, do you have a total paid figure?

Sorry no, I just did a basic calculation that they wold have been paying 4% above base at the end ie. 4.5%, it could have been 3.5%.
In my mortgage the £144 on £23510 equates to about 7.3% I think, the non-MIRAS rate will have been around 10% I suspect, about 3% above base at the time.

Sadly I have long since shredded all my paperwork, just those 2 figures stick in my mind.

The historical rates are here http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/boeapps/iadb/Repo.asp which is what my graph is based on, so it would be possible to work out their payments from that.

MIRAS will need to be taken into account until April 2000 when Gordon Brown got rid of it.

[Jeffrey]

Anyone have the pro version of wolfram alpha?

[NYGman]

Anyone have the pro version of wolfram alpha?

It was a free giveaway on Amazon App store many moons ago. Can't you just use their web site?

[Jeffrey]

I'll do it manually ghetto style then.

[AndyPandy]

Two things. Someone should archive that GOODF thread in case they take it down and 2. Did Tom go to GOODF before or after he stopped paying the mortgage at the 25 year mark.

before, he was advised on there to stop paying it

http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... bdEbrlRHIX

On the 2nd post down they fed 'the beast' by their basic lack of understanding of the difference between an Interest Only mortgage and an Endowment Mortgage, because of course from B&B's perspective there isn't a difference.

"you will discover that yes they have been negligent in transferring your mortgage from endowment to interest only, however they are absolved by way of your giving them POA,. Power of Attorney to act on your behalf, this POA is conveniently hidden in the unilateral (one signature, one agreement) 'contract' condition"

Later on Tom States the B&B 'lost the endowment', we know this to be incorrect as B&B never had control of it and it was cancelled from Sue Crawfords bank account.

[hucknallred]

Later on Tom States the B&B 'lost the endowment', we know this to be incorrect as B&B never had control of it and it was cancelled from Sue Crawfords bank account.

One other point to note, organisations weren't using direct debit to collect payments back then, the onus was on the payee to set up a standing order, & amend it when rates changed. So they(she) would have had to have made a concious decision to stop the endowmwnt payments, which seems to have happened when interest rates peaked.

[fat frank]

I would like to see her bank account from that time, to show weather the DD was called for, the SO was cancelled or there was no money in the account, as this would stop all the argueing,


come on tom, craig and Amanda, we know you will be reading this, show people the proof,

[ArthurWankspittle]

One other point to note, organisations weren't using direct debit to collect payments back then, the onus was on the payee to set up a standing order, & amend it when rates changed. So they(she) would have had to have made a concious decision to stop the endowmwnt payments, which seems to have happened when interest rates peaked.

She might even have paid it over the counter at a bank or agents in those days.

[AndyPandy]

One other point to note, organisations weren't using direct debit to collect payments back then, the onus was on the payee to set up a standing order, & amend it when rates changed. So they(she) would have had to have made a concious decision to stop the endowmwnt payments, which seems to have happened when interest rates peaked.

She might even have paid it over the counter at a bank or agents in those days.

And that's the route cause of this whole damn mess, that one conscious decision to cancel taken 20 odd years ago !

[guilty]

Actually, do you have a total paid figure?

It's not really possible to work out what the Crawfords might have paid because we don't have enough information on the mortgage deal they got from B&B originally, nor what the deal was with the additional £5k loan. Tom doesn't seem to know either.
I have played around with a spreadsheet this morning and used the best info and guesswork I can muster.

Firstly we don't know what the B&B mortgage deal was - was it fixed, fixed term, variable or tracker? We can see that the original offer was at 8% interest. I've obtained the Bank of England base rates back to 1988, but the average mortgage lending rates from Banks/Building Societies only go back to 1995. With a bit of extrapolation back from '95 to '88 I do, indeed get 8% for June 1988.
The next problem is, how were the interest rates applied? End of month, monthly average, quarterly, yearly? I've applied end of month interest rates.
Then there's the £5k loan on a repayment basis. Was this for the entire remaining 313 months of the mortgage, or was it a fixed term of, say, 10 years? I've included it over the 313 months, applied end of month interest, and reduced the capital to zero over that time.
Further complications arise because of the 6 capitalisations of mortgage arrears and the 3 capitalisations of the loan arrears. We don't know what they were.

Godsmark reveals that Tom's final payment was £198.79 in February 2012. My spreadsheet suggests it should have been at that time £163.86. But, of course there's the building insurance payment to add to that, plus all the increases due to the capitalisations.

I guess my spreadsheet is not too far off the mark given all the guesswork involved.

The final result for interest payments on mortgage plus capital/interest on loan is £93,700 on borrowings of £46,800 over 25 years.

[rumpelstilzchen]

The final result for interest payments on mortgage plus capital/interest on loan is £93,700 on borrowings of £46,800 over 25 years.

IMO that figure looks about right. The Crawfords have always maintained they have paid the amount they borrowed "three times over". There are two possibilities: Their figures are correct or they are incorrect. How are the Crawfords arriving at the figures they quote? Do they have records or are they guessing? If they do have records they should present them as evidence of their claim. Until they do I will continue to believe they have plucked their figures from the air. Thin air, come to that.

[YiamCross]

I would like to see her bank account from that time, to show weather the DD was called for, the SO was cancelled or there was no money in the account, as this would stop all the argueing,


come on tom, craig and Amanda, we know you will be reading this, show people the proof,

Sounds like a job for.... a Grand Jury to demand the evidence.

[hucknallred]

It's not really possible to work out what the Crawfords might have paid because we don't have enough information on the mortgage deal they got from B&B originally, nor what the deal was with the additional £5k loan. Tom doesn't seem to know either.

Have a look at the first couple if minutes of this,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a69znTP ... e=youtu.be
looks like his opening rate was 9.75% less MIRAS monthly payment £278.70.
We then see that from February (1989?) his payment shot up to £378.10, which ties in with the spike in rates, looks like a tracker from day 1.

[ArthurWankspittle]

looks like his opening rate was 9.75% less MIRAS monthly payment £278.70.
We then see that from February (1989?) his payment shot up to £378.10, which ties in with the spike in rates, looks like a tracker from day 1.

Were they even called trackers in those days? Variable rate was normal. Now you mention it I think I was paying 12% on a mortgage mid 1989.