Timeline - The Crawfords and 3 Fearn Chase

[mufc1959]

The variety of mortgage products we now have didn't exist in the 1980s. As a building society (as it was then, it didn't become a bank until 2000), Bradford & BIngley offered only two types of mortgage - as all building societies did in those days - capital and interest repayment method or interest-only supported by an endowment policy. Both at Standard Variable Rate.

[hucknallred]

Were they even called trackers in those days? Variable rate was normal. Now you mention it I think I was paying 12% on a mortgage mid 1989.

You're right now I think back, variable not tracker. Variable in that they decided how much the rate changed & when. For small changes they didn't apply it straight away sometimes. In the video we see a payment change from Feruary, but the last BOE change was the November before.

All distant memories now, having kept up my interest & endowment payments. No danger of my house being stolen

[Bungle]

The variety of mortgage products we now have didn't exist in the 1980s. As a building society (as it was then, it didn't become a bank until 2000), Bradford & BIngley offered only two types of mortgage - as all building societies did in those days - capital and interest repayment method or interest-only supported by an endowment policy. Both at Standard Variable Rate.

And not forgetting as well that in the 1980s if you wanted a mortgage you could only get one from a building society.....never from a bank.

[rumpelstilzchen]

Bradford & BIngley offered only two types of mortgage - as all building societies did in those days - capital and interest repayment method or interest-only supported by an endowment policy. Both at Standard Variable Rate.

Weren't pension linked mortgages available in those days?

[ArthurWankspittle]

Weren't pension linked mortgages available in those days?

Yes but all they were were an interest only paid off with your pension lump sum. It was tax efficient for a 30-40 something higher rate taxpayer. You got full tax relief in those days off your pension payments.

[guilty]

looks like his opening rate was 9.75% less MIRAS monthly payment £278.70.
We then see that from February (1989?) his payment shot up to £378.10, which ties in with the spike in rates, looks like a tracker from day 1.

Were they even called trackers in those days? Variable rate was normal. Now you mention it I think I was paying 12% on a mortgage mid 1989.

I've done a few more runs of my spreadsheet, trying to match what little we know about Tom's payments against various scenarios. The increase in Tom's payments that Arthur mentions are probably due to the addition of the £5000 loan in June 89. One of the best matches is actually a fixed rate mortgage taken out at 8% and maintained at that level for the entire life of the mortgage. Whilst that makes the more recent payments much more expensive, Tom would have benefited enormously during 89 - 93 when lending rates soared to over 15%.
The end result is, surprisingly, not that much different. On an 8% fixed rate over 25 years Tom would have paid £89,915 in interest - compared to £89,931 on a monthly tracker.

[Jeffrey]

Now calculate the loan as if it had been on a repayment basis.

You should find that £90,000 would have paid off the house in full IF it had been changed the repayment.

[guilty]

Now calculate the loan as if it had been on a repayment basis.

You should find that £90,000 would have paid off the house in full IF it had been changed the repayment.

OK. On a fixed rate of 8% at the quoted monthly payment of £376.40 (£319.60 with MIRAS tax relief, although this was abolished in 2000) Tom would have paid off his mortgage and additional loan completely by the end of February 2010.

Tom refused to change to a repayment mortgage.

[Pox]

Now calculate the loan as if it had been on a repayment basis.

You should find that £90,000 would have paid off the house in full IF it had been changed the repayment.

OK. On a fixed rate of 8% at the quoted monthly payment of £376.40 (£319.60 with MIRAS tax relief, although this was abolished in 2000) Tom would have paid off his mortgage and additional loan completely by the end of February 2010.

Tom refused to change to a repayment mortgage.

Says it all doesn't it?
We also had an endowment mortgage back in the early eighties, for £30k if I remember correctly as this was the maximum amount on which tax relief was claimable.
I can't remember exactly why or when but we changed to a repayment but kept the insurance policy going as a sort of savings scheme.
The press was full of stories of misselling of endowment policies at some point but I didn't think much of it at first as I didn't think we would have any chance of making a claim.
We moved house in the early nineties and I was putting our mortgage file into good order I.e. Sorting out the paperwork into chronological order when I came across the hand written notes that the financial advisor had given us, showing the 'bonus' payment that we would receive at the end of the mortgage when the policy would mature.
We made a claim for misselling which was successful ( they didn't have a leg to stand on) and went a long way to paying off the mortgage in the house we were living in at the time.
Coincidentally, the endowment policy was also with B & B.

[ArthurWankspittle]

Coincidentally, the endowment policy was also with B & B.

It might have been through them, it certainly wasn't "with" them unless they'd bought an insurance company.

[Pox]

Coincidentally, the endowment policy was also with B & B.

It might have been through them, it certainly wasn't "with" them unless they'd bought an insurance company.

Think I did a Tom there!

[Jeffrey]

Which goes back to one of the things I've been asking. Could Tom ask to recalculate the capital owed AS IF if it had been repayment, did he even attempt that?

[Pox]

Which goes back to one of the things I've been asking. Could Tom ask to recalculate the capital owed AS IF if it had been repayment, did he even attempt that?

He could ask for a recalculation I am sure or get someone to do it for him.
I assume that you are thinking that he could then make a claim for misselling and then do the same as we did.
If he were to make a successful claim, he may then be reinstated to the position he would have been, had he had a repayment mortgage (as happened to us). The process takes time though and in terms of saving Fearn Chase, it's probably too late.
Tom is too fixated in fighting a different crusade IMO and too stubborn to consider other options.

[ArthurWankspittle]

I assume that you are thinking that he could then make a claim for misselling and then do the same as we did.
If he were to make a successful claim, he may then be reinstated to the position he would have been, had he had a repayment mortgage (as happened to us).

Proportioned to the time he actually had a mortgage endowment? Here you go Tom, here's the difference between your payments from 1988 to 1991 between a repayment mortgage and an interest only one. He'll be lucky if it's £100 minus an admin fee.

[Jeffrey]

No, I mean, negotiate the bank to treat the mortgage as if it had been repayment, recalculate what he actually owes on that basis.

[ArthurWankspittle]

No, I mean, negotiate the bank to treat the mortgage as if it had been repayment, recalculate what he actually owes on that basis.

You're about 16 years too late and he turned it down anyway. B&B has been lenient with the Crawfords over the years compared to some lenders.

[Skeleton]

You're about 16 years too late and he turned it down anyway. B&B has been lenient with the Crawfords over the years compared to some lenders.

I think that is another clue as to when all the woo started in Tom's life. B&B have at times "gone the extra mile" to help. A hint maybe they knew the Crawford's were not your usual clients who would accept and conduct themselves in a normal manner.

[KickahaOta]

Just an observation: This was originally going to be a compact, succinct timeline thread to bring newcomers up to speed on the shenanigans. Now it seems to be turning into another general-purpose Crawfordmania discussion thread. We should probably try to keep side discussions about mortgage mechanics, etc. to the other existing threads, and preserve this one for its intended purpose.

[letissier14]

According to the latest transcript it is only Tom who is banned from further litigation for a period of 2 years, and that is in the high court & county court only.

Surprisingly Sue is not mentioned in it

[ArthurWankspittle]

While we have this bumped up, can someone tell me when Craig's next court appearance is and confirm that the last one was 1st Oct. I think it's on his Facebook.