hi guys! im commonly known as bmxninja357....

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Re: hi guys! im commonly known as bmxninja357....

Post by Wake Up! Productions »

bmxninja357 wrote:I'm simply trying to get to the bottom of who own canada and the type/style of ownership. As you can guess I hear many hair brained theories and would like to be able to give sound rebuttals. I'm not trying to start a pointless debate. There is a point. I seeking legal facts to crush wrong theories. Many have been around a long time but the true nature of the type of ownership seems difficult to adress.

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Canada Lands Surveys Act http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... ml#docCont
24. (1) In this Part, “Canada Lands” means

(a) any lands belonging to Her Majesty in right of Canada or of which the Government of Canada has power to dispose that are situated in Yukon, the Northwest Territories or Nunavut and any lands that are ...
I can only assume that the term "belonging to" is synonymous with "owned".

I hope this helps.
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Re: hi guys! im commonly known as bmxninja357....

Post by morrand »

Wake Up! Productions wrote: Canada Lands Surveys Act http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... ml#docCont
24. (1) In this Part, “Canada Lands” means

(a) any lands belonging to Her Majesty in right of Canada or of which the Government of Canada has power to dispose that are situated in Yukon, the Northwest Territories or Nunavut and any lands that are ...
I can only assume that the term "belonging to" is synonymous with "owned".

I hope this helps.
I'm not sure that it does. Besides that law simply authorizing public land surveys (rather than directly defining anything to do with ownership), the term "belonging to" isn't necessarily synonymous with ownership, but can also indicate membership: Ronald Roe belongs to the Andiron Party. Or, rightful possession, which isn't quite ownership: That ballot belongs to Mr. Roe.

My very weak understanding of property law (which is based entirely on Wikipedia, to indicate how weak it is) is that the original concept was of the monarch ultimately owning all of the land. All other property interests were subordinate to that, and among other fun effects, this led directly into the notion of "eminent domain," i.e., if the King wants the land back, he gets it back. And, of course, nobody owns the monarch, so there you go.

I would assume that, at least theoretically, this is still the case in Canada. Since a lot of this idea is based on feudalism, and since feudalism has fallen sharply out of fashion in the last dozen years or more, it's a very attenuated interest, but at its root is still there. In the US, by contrast, we ejected the monarch, who is therefore not a factor; nevertheless, some elements of the old system remain in the background: eminent domain, for example, along with seizure of land for delinquent property tax, and maybe some other indications of a title superior to any occupant's. Still, you have people trading land freely amongst themselves, without getting permission from the monarch first (or indeed any requirement to do so), and for most practical purposes that's probably enough to say they own it. Add to that the right not to be deprived of the enjoyment of property except by due process of law, and the monarch's interest gets somewhat more attenuated, though not completely eliminated.

So in other words, Canada is practically owned by lots and lots of Canadians (among others), individually. Their interests are subordinate to that of Queen Elizabeth II, who's delegated most of the heavy lifting to the Parliament of Canada, who in turn have delegated some of the messier work to the provincial governments; however, the ability of the Queen et al. to exercise that interest is constrained by law and modern sensibilities.

To Grixit's point, upthread, you, individually, own a share of the country (as a whole) to the same extent that you own a share of the Queen, which is to say that you don't, and never had. The idea that you do is probably tied in with the whole, "the government is a corporate fiction!" line of thinking, which we've discussed elsewhere, I'm sure. However, you, as a member of the public, have the right to petition your government to do things with property (in the name of the Queen, and using her interest), usually for the benefit of the whole society, usually for things like building highways and railways, and power transmission lines, and so on. And the government has that right, within limits, even though it doesn't have an interest in the land that we'd call ownership.
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Post by Wake Up! Productions »

morrand wrote:
I'm not sure that it does. Besides that law simply authorizing public land surveys (rather than directly defining anything to do with ownership), the term "belonging to" isn't necessarily synonymous with ownership, but can also indicate membership: Ronald Roe belongs to the Andiron Party. Or, rightful possession, which isn't quite ownership: That ballot belongs to Mr. Roe.
The full term "belonging to Her Majesty in right of Canada" had me stumped. Specifically "in right of Canada", what does that even mean? As you stated, "rightful possession, which isn't quite ownership". This is true, you can be in rightful possession of something, yet not actually own it. A mortgaged house is a perfect example, as you are in rightful possession of it, yet the bank actually owns it until the mortgage is paid off.

From this train of thought, I can assume that "belonging to Her Majesty in right of Canada" means that due to historical lineage, "Her Majesty" has the LAWFUL rightful possession of at least some of the lands of Canada, but in truth, even she can not claim LEGAL ownership of it.

Thank you for helping me to work that one out. Cheers.
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Post by eric »

Wake Up! Productions wrote: The full term "belonging to Her Majesty in right of Canada" had me stumped. Specifically "in right of Canada", what does that even mean? As you stated, "rightful possession, which isn't quite ownership". This is true, you can be in rightful possession of something, yet not actually own it. A mortgaged house is a perfect example, as you are in rightful possession of it, yet the bank actually owns it until the mortgage is paid off.
From this train of thought, I can assume that "belonging to Her Majesty in right of Canada" means that due to historical lineage, "Her Majesty" has the LAWFUL rightful possession of at least some of the lands of Canada, but in truth, even she can not claim LEGAL ownership of it.
Actually, in a few sentences you have done quite a good job of explaining Canada's constitutional monarchy. The reigning monarch is probably the only person who the old freeman argument of corporate and natural person applies to. Her "corporate person" is the embodiment of the state - the lawful government, courts, civil servants, elected officials, by extension the Canadian people, and the laws that govern them is what is meant by "Her Majesty in right of Canada". (Canada c'est moi :D ) The natural person is "Her Majesty the Queen of Canada" who has delegated certain (basicly all) of the powers and privileges of the state, the corporate Majesty in right of Canada, to various legal entities and persons.
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Post by pigpot »

eric wrote:
Wake Up! Productions wrote: The full term "belonging to Her Majesty in right of Canada" had me stumped. Specifically "in right of Canada", what does that even mean? As you stated, "rightful possession, which isn't quite ownership". This is true, you can be in rightful possession of something, yet not actually own it. A mortgaged house is a perfect example, as you are in rightful possession of it, yet the bank actually owns it until the mortgage is paid off.
From this train of thought, I can assume that "belonging to Her Majesty in right of Canada" means that due to historical lineage, "Her Majesty" has the LAWFUL rightful possession of at least some of the lands of Canada, but in truth, even she can not claim LEGAL ownership of it.
Actually, in a few sentences you have done quite a good job of explaining Canada's constitutional monarchy. The reigning monarch is probably the only person who the old freeman argument of corporate and natural person applies to. Her "corporate person" is the embodiment of the state - the lawful government, courts, civil servants, elected officials, by extension the Canadian people, and the laws that govern them is what is meant by "Her Majesty in right of Canada". (Canada c'est moi :D ) The natural person is "Her Majesty the Queen of Canada" who has delegated certain (basicly all) of the powers and privileges of the state, the corporate Majesty in right of Canada, to various legal entities and persons.
How did she get to own it in the first place is my question?
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Post by NYGman »

pigpot wrote:How did she get to own it in the first place is my question?
That one is easy, Monty Python Explained it well:
Monty Python and the Holy Grail wrote:King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well, I didn't vote for you.
Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis: You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
Arthur: Shut up
Dennis: I mean, if I went around saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Arthur: [grabs Dennis] Shut up! Will you shut up?!
Dennis: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: [shakes Dennis] Shut up!
Dennis: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!
Arthur: Bloody Peasant!
Dennis: Ooh, what a giveaway!
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Post by LordEd »

pigpot wrote: How did she get to own it in the first place is my question?
Colonization, treaties, and/or war.
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Post by pigpot »

LordEd wrote:
pigpot wrote: How did she get to own it in the first place is my question?
Colonization, treaties, and/or war.
So it invalidates THIS "binding document".... Is this a mish mash of CRAP and can somebody explain it PLEASE!!!

Here:
289
Article 1, Right to equality:
You are born free and equal in rights to every other hu-
man being. You have the ability to think and to tell right
from wrong. You should treat others with friendship.
Article 2, Freedom from discrimination:
You have all these human rights no matter what your
race, skin colour, sex, language, religion, opinions, fam-
ily background, social or economic status, birth or na-
t iona l it y.
Article 3, Right to life, liberty and personal security:
You have the right to live, to be free and to feel safe.
Article 4, Freedom from slavery:
Nobody has the right to treat you as a slave, and you
should not make anyone your slave.
Article 5, Freedom from torture and degrading
treatment:
Nobody has the right to torture, harm or humiliate
you.
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Post by pigpot »

I mean do
Colonization, treaties, and/or war.
not invalidate the Universal declaration or not...

If so are they are paying lip-service to b()l1sh1t. Fair question?
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Post by LordEd »

pigpot wrote: So it invalidates THIS "binding document".... Is this a mish mash of CRAP and can somebody explain it PLEASE!!!
Going to push some back at you... What exactly makes that document binding? Why is that document special?
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Post by LordEd »

I think colonization took place well before that document.
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Post by pigpot »

LordEd wrote:I think colonization took place well before that document.
So colonisation is the method of measurement in this case? If so forget the planet as it is, is now over. Take me and, own in what ever way you know is best...
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Post by LordEd »

Back to universal declaration. Why is that document special? I don't remember agreeing to it. Who made it 'binding'? Who agreed to it?
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Post by LordEd »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers ... man_Rights

Are you trying to say that a document agreed to by a bunch of nations with boundaries formed in the processes previously mentioned invalidates their ability to be nations?

Chicken and egg problem. If this document invalidates the nation, then this document is invalid because they aren't able to agree to it.
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Post by Hanslune »

Say what?

Is the discussion about the LEGAL status of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Canada?

In 1976, after the Covenants had been ratified by a sufficient number of individual nations, the Bill took on the force of international law. What effect that had on Canadian law I could not speak too.

Is pigpot trying to say that its existence means that Canada doesn't exist or that some of the 30 articles give support to the ideas of FOLT?
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Post by Burnaby49 »

Hanslune wrote:Say what?

Is the discussion about the LEGAL status of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Canada?

In 1976, after the Covenants had been ratified by a sufficient number of individual nations, the Bill took on the force of international law. What effect that had on Canadian law I could not speak too.

Is pigpot trying to say that its existence means that Canada doesn't exist or that some of the 30 articles give support to the ideas of FOLT?
From my experience the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has no significant effect on law in Canada. I've attended numerous Freeman court hearings and I think all of them claimed that the Declaration trumped whatever Canadian law they were having problems with and supported whatever their position was. Whatever they wanted was a human right protected by the Declaration. The courts didn't just reject the Declaration argument they ignored it entirely. I never heard a judge comment on it and it is not even mentioned in any decision I've reviewed in Quatloos.
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Post by Hanslune »

Yeah it was certainly had no legal effect in the UAE, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. The government's in those places were violating a dozen or more tenets of that agreement on a daily basis.

I read it again for this thread and it fairly general so I guess the FOLT could try using it to support their ideas but then it was written by the same evil governments they don't seem to think exist so the contradiction of that just makes the whole idea a bit silly.

Hmmm I wonder how these fit in:

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

..I thought person was a bad word in FOLT speak?

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

No mention of the Magna Carta or Bible......

etc.
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Post by notorial dissent »

bmxninja357 wrote:I'm simply trying to get to the bottom of who own canada and the type/style of ownership. As you can guess I hear many hair brained theories and would like to be able to give sound rebuttals. I'm not trying to start a pointless debate. There is a point. I seeking legal facts to crush wrong theories. Many have been around a long time but the true nature of the type of ownership seems difficult to address.

Peace
Ninj
The simplest answer is LordEd’s, in legal theory the sovereign is the owner of all. Since Canada is part of the Commonwealth with the Queen as head, I would suspect in abstract legal theory the sovereign is the actual owner. Eminent domain exists in both our countries and basically says that the sovereign, with cause, can take, with compensation, any land they want so it puts their holding as superior. I believe the old phrase was in right of the King/Queen. In modern legal practice the sovereign would be the gov’t, in your case exercising its authority in right of the Queen, in ours in right of the people. I know, doesn’t really answer your question.

To the best of my knowledge there are actually 4 countries that can be said to be owned by their sovereigns, The Vatican-Pope, The Sovereign Order of Malta, in Rome-The Grand Master, Monaco-The Prince of Monaco, and Lichtenstein-Prince of Lichtenstein, in these cases the countries are said to belong to the sovereign, these are all that I can come up with off the top of my head.

The best way of looking at your question to consider a piece of property that is held in trust for a family. They all have the right to use the property, but in order to do anything with the property they all must agree to it. A country is like that only way worse. That is about the best analogy I can come up with.

The biggest problem is that you are trying to conflate two things that don’t conflate worth a damn. Private property can be owned by a person or thing, but is not the same thing or context as a government or a nation, usually, and quite frankly there is no point in trying to explain one in terms of the other, it simply does not work.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: hi guys! im commonly known as bmxninja357....

Post by Burnaby49 »

bmxninja357 wrote:

I'm simply trying to get to the bottom of who own canada and the type/style of ownership. As you can guess I hear many hair brained theories and would like to be able to give sound rebuttals. I'm not trying to start a pointless debate. There is a point. I seeking legal facts to crush wrong theories. Many have been around a long time but the true nature of the type of ownership seems difficult to address.

Peace
Ninj
According to Wikipedia the Crown, not the Queen, owns all of the public areas of Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada
The historical roots of the Canadian monarchy date back to approximately the turn of the 16th century, when European kingdoms made the first claims to what is now Canadian territory. Monarchical governance thenceforth evolved under a continuous succession of French and British sovereigns and eventually the federal Canadian monarchy of today, which is sometimes colloquially referred to as the Maple Crown

Personification of the Canadian state

As the living embodiment of the Crown, the sovereign is regarded as the personification of the Canadian state and, as such, must, along with his or her viceregal representatives, "remain strictly neutral in political terms". The body of the reigning sovereign thus holds two distinct personas in constant coexistence: that of a natural-born human being and that of the state as accorded to him or her through law; the Crown and the monarch are "conceptually divisible but legally indivisible... [t]he office cannot exist without the office-holder", so, even in private, the monarch is always "on duty". The terms the state, the Crown, the Crown in Right of Canada, Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada (French: Sa Majesté la Reine du chef du Canada) and similar are all synonymous and the monarch's legal personality is sometimes referred to simply as Canada.

As such, the king or queen of Canada is the employer of all government officials and staff (including the viceroys, judges, members of the Canadian Forces, police officers, and parliamentarians), the guardian of foster children (Crown wards), as well as the owner of all state lands (Crown land), buildings and equipment (Crown held property), state owned companies (Crown corporations), and the copyright for all government publications (Crown copyright) This is all in his or her position as sovereign, and not as an individual; all such property is held by the Crown in perpetuity and cannot be sold by the sovereign without the proper advice and consent of his or her ministers.

The monarch is at the apex of the Canadian order of precedence and, as the embodiment of the state, is also the locus of oaths of allegiance, required of many of the aforementioned employees of the Crown, as well as by new citizens, as by the Oath of Citizenship. Allegiance is given in reciprocation to the sovereign's Coronation Oath, wherein he or she promises "to govern the Peoples of... Canada... according to their respective laws and customs".
I can't say I've ever heard it referred to as the "Maple Crown" although I suppose it works in context;

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Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Burnaby49 wrote:
Hanslune wrote:Say what?

Is the discussion about the LEGAL status of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Canada?

In 1976, after the Covenants had been ratified by a sufficient number of individual nations, the Bill took on the force of international law. What effect that had on Canadian law I could not speak too.

Is pigpot trying to say that its existence means that Canada doesn't exist or that some of the 30 articles give support to the ideas of FOLT?
From my experience the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has no significant effect on law in Canada. I've attended numerous Freeman court hearings and I think all of them claimed that the Declaration trumped whatever Canadian law they were having problems with and supported whatever their position was. Whatever they wanted was a human right protected by the Declaration. The courts didn't just reject the Declaration argument they ignored it entirely. I never heard a judge comment on it and it is not even mentioned in any decision I've reviewed in Quatloos.
This may be of interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law

In particular:

Much of international law is consent-based governance. This means that a state member of the international community is not obliged to abide by this type of international law, unless it has expressly consented to a particular course of conduct. This is an issue of state sovereignty. However, other aspects of international law are not consent-based but still are obligatory upon state and non-state actors such as customary international law and peremptory norms (jus cogens).

The term "international law" can refer to three distinct legal disciplines:

Public international law, which governs the relationship between states and international entities. It includes these legal fields: treaty law, law of sea, international criminal law, the laws of war or international humanitarian law, international human rights law, and refugee law.

Private international law, or conflict of laws, which addresses the questions of (1) which jurisdiction may hear a case, and (2) the law concerning which jurisdiction applies to the issues in the case.

Supranational law or the law of supranational organizations, which concerns regional agreements where the laws of nation states may be held inapplicable when conflicting with a supranational legal system when that nation has a treaty obligation to a supranational collective.

I first studied international law in college; and I remember a 1947 decision, by the International Court of Justice, popularly known as the Corfu Channel Case, stating that Albania was liable to pay almost £850,000 to the UK for having laid mines in the Corfu Channel between the island of Corfu and Albania. Albania responded to the Court's decision by essentiually telling the Court where to stick its decision. In 1950, Albania offered £40,000 to the UK, which told Albania where to stick its offer. Compensation was not paid until 1996.

The important thing to remember is that in this case, as with so many others, international law means nothing unless a country is willing to abide by its provisions, or is obligated by treaty to do so.
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