Elaine posts another letter

[Quixote]

But what the 14th does is not only make the slaves a citizen, but switches the "state citizen" into a reversed lower "U.S. citizen" which is a whole new different jurisdiction (class) and as the writers of the 14th from the quote above say!

As has been pointed out, you are confused. There is no hierarchy in citizenship. I am a citizen of Texas and a citizen of the United States. My US citizenship is not above my state citizenship in any sense, nor is it below it.

BTW, it is customary to identify the source of quoted material. Given the tendency of tax deniers to invent quotations, I tend to ignore unattributed material.

[Prof]

I'm sorry, but the rules are simple, and nothing you can do can change them.

A person born in or naturalized or born in limited other circumstances is defined as a "citizen of the U. S."

A citizen of the U. S. who lives in a State, Territory, or the District is also a citizen of that entity.

If I am a RESIDENT of the U.S., I owe taxes even if I am not a citizen.

If I am a legal resident, I am generally subject to the laws and protected by the Constitution. As an illegal resident, I might not have all of the protections of the Constitution.

If I am a legal resident of or find myself located in a State, I am generally subject to the laws of that State (territory, DC, etc.) and have the protections of the State and Federal constitutions. As a illegal resident, I am subject to the laws but may not have some of the Constitutional protections.

A person who is a citizen of a State gets to vote, hold office, take the Bar Exam. A person who is not a citizen -- a transient resident or a visitor who has expressed an intent to retain his or her prior state citizenship, such as a military man or woman, may be barred from these things. (I remained an SC resident while on active duty at Ft Bragg. which is in NC.)

A person who is a citizen of the US gets to vote, hold all offices except president (must be native born). Of course, voting and some office holdings have other requirements such as age, etc.

You cannot reside in the US as a naturalized or native born human being and reject citizenship unless you leave the country and renounce.

There are no more secret rules. There is no "sovereignty secret." A land patent does not avoid your mortgage or get you out of taxes. Walking three times arount an old oak at midnight on a full moon will not cause you roses to turn to marigolds.

[webhick]

Rachel appears to be one of those women who is only good for one thing and that one thing a man can pay a woman anywhere in the world to perform, with no questions asked and no attempts made at conversation

An oil change?

[Nikki]

WH:

He gave the answer in his post -- sewing buttons on.

If he hadn't, the usual cast of perverts here would have jumped all over the straight line.

They might even have come up with salacious responses like Teaching or Nursing.

[webhick]

WH:

He gave the answer in his post -- sewing buttons on.

If he hadn't, the usual cast of perverts here would have jumped all over the straight line.

They might even have come up with salacious responses like Teaching or Nursing.

I wanted to go in a different direction.

[Nikki]

perv

[webhick]

Sorry.

[Nikki]

No need to apologize. Perversion is permissible -- even encouraged on dull threads -- as long as there's an appropriate warning.

Please continue with the oil change concept. Are you leading up to lube jobs, or did you have another LSD-based concept in mind?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[rachel]

But what the 14th does is not only make the slaves a citizen, but switches the "state citizen" into a reversed lower "U.S. citizen" which is a whole new different jurisdiction (class) and as the writers of the 14th from the quote above say!

As has been pointed out, you are confused. There is no hierarchy in citizenship. I am a citizen of Texas and a citizen of the United States. My US citizenship is not above my state citizenship in any sense, nor is it below it.

BTW, it is customary to identify the source of quoted material. Given the tendency of tax deniers to invent quotations, I tend to ignore unattributed material.

No hierarchy?... Really!
Then why the need for the government to reverse from state citizenship jurisdiction to federal jurisdiction?
As for your federal "U.S. citizenship"....you dont explain anything different than what the 14th doesnt already establish. Jurisdiction included!
So whats it like being second class and paying every April 15 deadline for rights that you get freely being a state citizen?

On a side note. Quatloos is a different side of the same coin as Losthorizons. Both sides argue out of context, misquotes and so on, to try and prove each side, but for you legal people its a shame you paid to be indoctrined for brainwashing.
I guess thats why this forums server is located oversea's and out of reach of prosecution for misleading legality.

[Florida]

But what the 14th does is not only make the slaves a citizen, but switches the "state citizen" into a reversed lower "U.S. citizen" which is a whole new different jurisdiction (class) and as the writers of the 14th from the quote above say!

As has been pointed out, you are confused. There is no hierarchy in citizenship. I am a citizen of Texas and a citizen of the United States. My US citizenship is not above my state citizenship in any sense, nor is it below it.

BTW, it is customary to identify the source of quoted material. Given the tendency of tax deniers to invent quotations, I tend to ignore unattributed material.

No hierarchy?... Really!
Then why the need for the government to reverse from state citizenship jurisdiction to federal jurisdiction?
As for your federal "U.S. citizenship"....you dont explain anything different than what the 14th doesnt already establish. Jurisdiction included!
So whats it like being second class and paying every April 15 deadline for rights that you get freely being a state citizen?

On a side note. Quatloos is a different side of the same coin as Losthorizons. Both sides argue out of context, misquotes and so on, to try and prove each side, but for you legal people its a shame you paid to be indoctrined for brainwashing.
I guess thats why this forums server is located oversea's and out of reach of prosecution for misleading legality.

On another side note, none of the Quatloosians have gone to prison for the "theories" they've argued. Just a little co-inky-dink for you to talk with Ross over some coffee.

[webhick]

or did you have another LSD-based concept in mind?

Enquiring minds want to know.

I was having flashbacks to the Annual Illuminati Vehicle Maintenance Beauty Pageant. Talented ladies from around the globe are invited to compete. The talent competition winner last year could not only tell you the viscosity of the oil that you were supposed to use for your vehicle, she could also tell you how many quarts you were down and how many miles you had left to go before your next oil change all without popping the hood or turning on the car. But what cinched the win was when she MacGyver'd an oil change using only an ice pick and silly putty. Remarkable talent on that one.

For those of you who ordered the Illuminati Swimsuit Calendar, she's May. You'll probably remember her quite clearly as she was the one sporting the large flotation devices and was in a seductive pose on the hood of a Porsche 911 Turbo. We all thought the photographer was nuts when he told her to wear the oversized inflatable arm bands, but that photo was FIERCE.

[wserra]

Rachel appears to be one of those women who is only good for one thing and that one thing a man can pay a woman anywhere in the world to perform, with no questions asked and no attempts made at conversation

An oil change?

Illuminati rules forbid euphemisms.

[rachel]

As has been pointed out, you are confused. There is no hierarchy in citizenship. I am a citizen of Texas and a citizen of the United States. My US citizenship is not above my state citizenship in any sense, nor is it below it.

BTW, it is customary to identify the source of quoted material. Given the tendency of tax deniers to invent quotations, I tend to ignore unattributed material.

No hierarchy?... Really!
Then why the need for the government to reverse from state citizenship jurisdiction to federal jurisdiction?
As for your federal "U.S. citizenship"....you dont explain anything different than what the 14th doesnt already establish. Jurisdiction included!
So whats it like being second class and paying every April 15 deadline for rights that you get freely being a state citizen?

On a side note. Quatloos is a different side of the same coin as Losthorizons. Both sides argue out of context, misquotes and so on, to try and prove each side, but for you legal people its a shame you paid to be indoctrined for brainwashing.
I guess thats why this forums server is located oversea's and out of reach of prosecution for misleading legality.

On another side note, none of the Quatloosians have gone to prison for the "theories" they've argued. Just a little co-inky-dink for you to talk with Ross over some coffee.

Same for you Florida,
Care to join Quixote on why the need for the government to reverse from state citizenship jurisdiction to federal jurisdiction?
Why bring the white man into the 14th if the states already had citizenship?
And while you are at it explain why in the civil codes each state defines itself as an equal to DC and the territories.
Consider in your answer, if you would ever answer, that each 50 state Constitutions dont define themselves as an equal.

[Nikki]

Rachel, do you understand the difference between citizenship and jurisdiction?

If not, you really should stick to using words with fewer syllables.

The word "jurisdiction" appears exactly twice in the Amendment -- highlighted for your convenience:

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The first occurrance is used to qualify the set of people who are United States citizens by eliminating a very small group: e.g children of foreign nations' diplomatic corps.

The second occurrence relates to the legislative and governance jurisdiction of each of the separate states.

Please try to keep this straight.

[grammarian44]

Rachel, both ESO and Prof have pointed out that under the U.S. income tax scheme, people who reside in the United States must pay U.S. income taxes whether or not they are citizens.

You've never responded to this point, which strikes me as the most obvious error in everything you've said. Even if there were distinctions in types of citizenship, what in the world could this possibly have to do with your obligation to pay income tax?

[LPC]

But what the 14th does is not only make the slaves a citizen, but switches the "state citizen" into a reversed lower "U.S. citizen" which is a whole new different jurisdiction (class) and as the writers of the 14th from the quote above say!

As has been pointed out, you are confused. There is no hierarchy in citizenship. I am a citizen of Texas and a citizen of the United States. My US citizenship is not above my state citizenship in any sense, nor is it below it.

No hierarchy?... Really!

Yes, really.

Then why the need for the government to reverse from state citizenship jurisdiction to federal jurisdiction?

As others have pointed out, you're confusing "citizenship" with "jurisdiction." The word "jurisdiction" usually means the power of the courts to enforce laws, and so in that sense the "jurisdiction" of the United States applies to *everyone* within the borders of the United States (other than diplomats and other foreign officials, who are immune from legal process by international treaties).

Even if you use "jurisdiction" as a synonym for "legislative power," the powers of Congress are still limited to those listed in Article I, section 8 (which includes the power to tax), and nothing in the 14th Amendment changed that.

As for why the 14th Amendment was written the way it was written, a little high school history is required.

1. There was slavery in the United States at the time the Constitution was written.

2. Later, Congress tried to limit the spread of slavery by (a) prohibiting the importation of new slaves and (b) requiring new states (such as Missouri) to ban slavery.

3. In Dred Scott v. Sanford, the Supreme Court ruled that there was *nothing* Congress could do to give a former slave the rights of a citizen. Slaves and former slaves were simply outside the scope of the Constitution, and there was nothing that Congress could do about it.

4. Then, we had a war between the northern (non-slave) states and the southern (slave) states.

5. After the northern states won, they wanted to make sure that former slaves were citizens in every sense of the word, and that the states could not continue to treat them differently than other citizens.

Hence, the 14th Amendment.

Now, you seem to want to make a big deal out of the fact that the 14th Amendment defines US citizenship first, and then declares that US citizens are also citizens of the state in which they reside, instead of the other way around, even though you can't provide any coherent reason for why it might a difference. Allow me to suggest two reasons why the first section of the 14th Amendment might have been written the way it was written:

1. One reason is simple economy of words. As actually written, the 14th Amendment is simple and to the point: Persons born in the United States are citizens of the United States and of the state in which they reside. Phrasing it the other way around is more convoluted, and requires a third step, because you would have to say that persons born in the states of the United States (and the District of Columbia) are citizens of the state in which they are born, and they are citizens of the United States, and they are citizens of the state in which they reside.

2. The federal Constitution is a *federal* Constitution, so it is more natural to begin with a definition of federal citizenship rather than begin with a definition of state citizenship.

But this is still all irrelevant to the question that you can't answer, which is: "What difference does it make?" The Supreme Court has made it clear that the rights and obligations of federal citizenship are completely separate from the rights and obligations of state citizenship, stating (for example) that we have "a citizenship which owes allegiance to two sovereigns, and claims the protection of both." United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 549 (1876).

And do you really think that the laws of the United States only apply to citizens? Do you really think (for example) that the DEA only arrests citizens of the United States for illegal drug trafficking, and that immigrants (legal or illegal) are allowed to go free?

[Imalawman]

Rachel appears to be one of those women who is only good for one thing and that one thing a man can pay a woman anywhere in the world to perform, with no questions asked and no attempts made at conversation

An oil change?

Is that more like the Kentucky Snow Plow or the Rusty Trombone? Oh wait, I see Wserra has banned euphemisms. Nevermind.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

I don't remember seeing you, Evil Squirrel Overlord. How could I miss someone is quite delicious attire.

Oh why thank you. You should see me in my robes in the White Tower Chambers on Squirrel Island when the 13 Illuminati from Tel Aviv and Zurich pay homage to their masters! (Shape shifters they may be, but their minds are totally malleable when they are in the ultra-ruby* hall.)




*Baum wanted silver slippers, but we forced him to change them to ruby in the 1930’s because their ophthalmological properties would trigger the brumating Illuminati from a political torpor into tireless anti-fascist black ops soldiers. The music from that film also was perfectly subliminal on the human mind. “If I only had a brain” make groupthink easier; “If I only had a heart” turned the masses into cold blooded killers, and “Courage” made the masses fight for us.



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