Moderator: ArthurWankspittle
He does realize he's on video refusing to get out of the car after receiving several lawful orders from the police?Resisting Arrest (FALSE)
Wrap your next poxy hatchback round a tree and see what happens: An aside about law on the other side of the pond. I don't remember the details (but it was in a legal newsletter, not J Random Troll's blog), a person was convicted of drunk driving, even though he was found in the passenger seat, and the key was in his possession, not in the ignition. The court ruled that being in the car in possession of the key, with no other person even claimed to be present, was sufficient that he was found to have been driving. As for being drunk, he admitted it....ArthurWankspittle wrote:Going back to my previous post which foreshadowed some of his comments, he was sat in the driver's seat, the key was in the ignition, the ignition was on. In English law he was driving.
Join the Blue Ribbon Online Free Speech Campaign!A true story: a long, long time ago (the 1970s) in a galaxy far, far away (Massachusetts), when I was in law school, indigent people charged with petty misdemeanors sometimes had law students, not real lawyers, foisted upon them as defense counsel. In one case I handled, four teenage kids were sitting in a parked car smoking a joint. In being winter in Boston (i.e., well below freezing), they had the car turned on for warmth. The three kids in the passenger seats were charged with simple possession, but the one sitting in the driver's seat (the one I got assigned to represent, lucky me) was deemed the "driver," because he was behind the wheel of a car which was turned on. He was charged with (my best recollection of the verbiage of the complaint) "Operating a motor vehicle while under the influence of a narcotic [sic] drug, to whit, marihuana[sic]."An aside about law on the other side of the pond. I don't remember the details (but it was in a legal newsletter, not J Random Troll's blog), a person was convicted of drunk driving, even though he was found in the passenger seat, and the key was in his possession, not in the ignition. The court ruled that being in the car in possession of the key, with no other person even claimed to be present, was sufficient that he was found to have been driving. As for being drunk, he admitted it....
Correct me if I'm wrong but surely if the car was on your drive that would count as a private place rather than a public one and you would be legally entitled to be drunk in charge of a motor vehicle if you so desired.Losleones wrote:"The keys" play a pivotal role as to whether or not you can be charged if over the legal limit. For example,if i was cleaning my car on a sunny day on my own driveway enjoying a few beers with the keys in the ignition & a passing Bobby was suspicious of foul play & decided to breathalyse me & found to be over the drink driving limit even though I had no intention of driving such conveyance i could expect a driving ban quite easily unless i presented a very strong case in my defense.
If you're in possession of the keys then it is understood by Law that you have the intention of driving the vehicle they belong to.
I thought that but was corrected by a retired high up PO. While technically it is your private land it is open to the public ie, postman, gas/leccy meter readers, newspapers & so on. It is a grey area as I'm sure in some circumstances private means just that but household dwellers are running a risk, albeit, a low risk if they are in possession of those pesky keys whilst inebriated.longdog wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but surely if the car was on your drive that would count as a private place rather than a public one and you would be legally entitled to be drunk in charge of a motor vehicle if you so desired.Losleones wrote:"The keys" play a pivotal role as to whether or not you can be charged if over the legal limit. For example,if i was cleaning my car on a sunny day on my own driveway enjoying a few beers with the keys in the ignition & a passing Bobby was suspicious of foul play & decided to breathalyse me & found to be over the drink driving limit even though I had no intention of driving such conveyance i could expect a driving ban quite easily unless i presented a very strong case in my defense.
If you're in possession of the keys then it is understood by Law that you have the intention of driving the vehicle they belong to.
Same thing happened to me in 1973 apart from being drunk. Police were pissed off but happily for me it's not an offense in Canada to sleep in your parked car if you're sober.mufc1959 wrote:When I was a law student in the olden days I remember a case where a bloke, realising he was too drunk to drive home, decided to sleep in his car overnight in the pub car park. He was on the back seat, covered by a blanket and sound asleep when the police knocked on the window. Because he was the owner of the car and in possession of the keys, even though he had no intention whatsoever of driving it until he was sober enough to do so next day, he was still charged with being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle.
And even though the barrier to the car park had been closed so he couldn't have driven off if he wanted to, he was considered to be in a public place.
The very same thing happened to my father in a lay-by outside Stornoway, Isle of Lewis of all places, him and his mate had got smashed fishing. Judge congratulated him on not driving the car and dismissed the case.mufc1959 wrote:When I was a law student in the olden days I remember a case where a bloke, realising he was too drunk to drive home, decided to sleep in his car overnight in the pub car park. He was on the back seat, covered by a blanket and sound asleep when the police knocked on the window. Because he was the owner of the car and in possession of the keys, even though he had no intention whatsoever of driving it until he was sober enough to do so next day, he was still charged with being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle.
And even though the barrier to the car park had been closed so he couldn't have driven off if he wanted to, he was considered to be in a public place.
On your driveway I honestly couldn't say, as I don't know, although I have seen the sleeping in the pub car park one before.longdog wrote:Washing your car on your drive with the keys in so you can listen to the light program whilst over the alcohol limit is, I would argue, a perfectly normal activity which, in the absence of any evidence that you had or intended to drive on the road, is perfectly legal.
I can confirm that here in Canada you can be convicted of a DUI for being found asleep drunk in the back seat of a car parked in your own driveway. All it takes is keys in your possession-intoxicated-physically in vehicle. As far as I know in Canada you can clean the car drunk in front of your house and be ok as long as you stay outside of the car. But go inside and you are screwed if the police catch you, even if you can convince the court that you had no intention of driving. The law doesn't care about why you say you are inside the vehicle.Think of it this way... Let's say you are cleaning your partner's car on the drive and you don't have a licence yourself. Would that be leaving yourself open to a charge of driving without a licence purely on the basis that the keys were in the ignition and you just happened to be the nearest person? I know the footlers like to harp on about the definition of 'driving' but in the specific case of cleaning your car whilst drunk on your own property is not driving... It's cleaning.
I bet their are Policeman who would read this and shake their heads, sometimes they really do not help themselves. Yes legally they were probably correct but what was he supposed to do? "Sorry dear, you need to de-ice the car yourself, im to pissed to go near it"NG3 wrote:On your driveway I honestly couldn't say, as I don't know, although I have seen the sleeping in the pub car park one before.longdog wrote:Washing your car on your drive with the keys in so you can listen to the light program whilst over the alcohol limit is, I would argue, a perfectly normal activity which, in the absence of any evidence that you had or intended to drive on the road, is perfectly legal.
I also saw a friend prosecuted for drink driving before for starting the car, to help de-ice it for his missus, on a Sunday morning, after a heavy Saturday night.
He wasn't even sitting in the car when the police arrived, he was standing outside scraping ice of the windshield, but the keys were in the ignition, and he still had enough alcohol left in his bloodstream that he ended up in court.
This is actually an often discussed issue on motorhome forums. If it came to court it gets very blurred. For instance, what consideration would you make of the occupant being in their pyjamas? The best solution seen is (assume pub car park) you ask the landlord to lock your keys in the pub safe overnight.mufc1959 wrote:And how would it apply to someone who lives in a camper van (can you think of anyone?!), parked up overnight, having a beer or a glass of wine with dinner as anyone else might do in their home, no intention of driving off.
As ridiculous as it seems i didn't care to argue with the retired PO who pointed this out whilst on my Drink Drive Rehabilitation Course. In answer to the above quote you'd obviously be fine to clean your partner's car whilst legless with keys in ignition & no licence as you're not legally obliged to drive it. If the postman popped by with his mail completely legless & was the nearest to the car would he be breathalysed on suspicion of attempting to drive whilst under the influence?longdog wrote:
Think of it this way... Let's say you are cleaning your partner's car on the drive and you don't have a licence yourself. Would that be leaving yourself open to a charge of driving without a licence purely on the basis that the keys were in the ignition and you just happened to be the nearest person? I know the footlers like to harp on about the definition of 'driving' but in the specific case of cleaning your car whilst drunk on your own property is not driving... It's cleaning.
I do not drink and drive, not least becasue my job is zero tolerance and we get randomly tested. I have always considered people who get into a situation where they can't drive the car home as silly idiots, but some people have the common sense to realise they can't drive. I find it bizzare that someone can be asleep in the back of their car and get "done" for doing so. Take the keys off them or something, but hammering them for trying to do the right thing seems most odd to me.ArthurWankspittle wrote:This is actually an often discussed issue on motorhome forums. If it came to court it gets very blurred. For instance, what consideration would you make of the occupant being in their pyjamas? The best solution seen is (assume pub car park) you ask the landlord to lock your keys in the pub safe overnight.mufc1959 wrote:And how would it apply to someone who lives in a camper van (can you think of anyone?!), parked up overnight, having a beer or a glass of wine with dinner as anyone else might do in their home, no intention of driving off.
That case was so much worse than you think.Skeleton wrote: I bet their are Policeman who would read this and shake their heads, sometimes they really do not help themselves. Yes legally they were probably correct but what was he supposed to do? "Sorry dear, you need to de-ice the car yourself, im to pissed to go near it"
NG3 wrote:That case was so much worse than you think.Skeleton wrote: I bet their are Policeman who would read this and shake their heads, sometimes they really do not help themselves. Yes legally they were probably correct but what was he supposed to do? "Sorry dear, you need to de-ice the car yourself, im to pissed to go near it"
The officer was in the area because of a report of a disturbance the night before and approached my friend as a possible witness, it was at this point that my friend explained that he couldn't have seen, or heard anything, because he'd been elsewhere drinking the night before, and it was from that admission that it eventually progressed to a breathalyser test, and his arrest.
Meanwhile, the disturbance that should have been being investigated was put on the back burner, so to speak, which was a bad decision, considering the guy responsible is now serving life for being a serial killer.
At least 5 women were murdered between that reported disturbance and the guys eventual arrest.
Sounds like one hell of a bad Officer who took the easy way out mate. I have been arrested once, years ago at a football game for swearing (seriously.) Convinced to this day, that Policeman wanted out of that ground and i was an easy option, got outside and he told me to hop it, i note he did not go back in.