Canada, non-Inc.

[Bill Lumbergh]

So why isn't the Russian government a corporation?

[bmxninja357]

So why isn't the Russian government a corporation?

they are. nations do business via there corporate persons. so its a safe bet that if a landmass is a nation its also a corporation and corporate person.

and not all nations are good global citizens but they are persons of the corporate verity. if they were not there would be no business done between them as there would be no accountability as they could not sue or be sued.

and as i like to rub reality in the face of dean and his flunkys here is their precious little billionaire vlad and his gang of homophobic racist nation loving free speech stifling catholic fundamentalists.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/arc ... 98536b.jpg

note the American made motorcycles.....

peace,
ninj

[wserra]

So why isn't the Russian government a corporation?

they are. nations do business via there corporate persons. so its a safe bet that if a landmass is a nation its also a corporation and corporate person.

Not so. While you will sometimes see governments (especially at the city and town level) referred to as "municipal corporations", governments have no more in common with General Motors than hot dogs do with German Shepherds. Language is frequently imprecise.

and not all nations are good global citizens but they are persons of the corporate verity. if they were not there would be no business done between them as there would be no accountability as they could not sue or be sued.

Sure there would, and sure they could. Governments do business as governments, and sue and are sued as governments. Heard of "sovereign immunity"? That's why those who sue government have to jump through all sorts of government-imposed hoops - sovereign immunity is frequently waived only with various preconditions, which must be followed exactly or your suit will be tossed. The sovrun favorite "exhausting administrative remedies" is often one of those, although it doesn't mean what they think it means. Suing a corporation requires nothing like that.

[Wake Up! Productions]

governments have no more in common with General Motors than hot dogs do with German Shepherds.

Poor example, as after the 2008 bailouts, the American Government became the majority shareholder in General Motors, until the bailout was repaid.

[bmxninja357]

So is a nation like canada registered as a corporation? And if so why?

I have found canada on the same site where folks wrongly claim you can find your birth certificate. Why is it there? Are all nations there?

Trying to get to the root of things.

Peace,
Ninj

[Wake Up! Productions]

So is a nation like canada registered as a corporation? And if so why?

I have found canada on the same site where folks wrongly claim you can find your birth certificate. Why is it there? Are all nations there?

Trying to get to the root of things.

Peace,
Ninj

I know that this is treading dangerously close to freeman theology, but from my research, just as towns and cities are municipal corporations on a local level, in the realm of International Law, nations are also considered to be municipal corporations - just on a grander scale.

[arayder]

How many times do freemen need to have explained to them the difference between General Motors and the governments of United States and Canada before they get it?

When governments large and small "do business" they are treated like corporations. This means, among other things, that the painter seeking to contract with a city government to paint city hall has the opportunity to check out the city's credit/financial rating and the city doesn't have the option of reneging on the contract by claiming a sort of sovereign immunity.

But unlike the business down the street the governments of cities, states, provinces and nations, according to their constitutions or charters, have the authority to make and enforce binding law.

Freemen, in their willful ignorance, ignore that last bit when the they pretend they can opt out of the rule of law by canceling a sort of contract they imagine has been put in place between them and government.

[Wake Up! Productions]

How many times do freemen need to have explained to them the difference between General Motors and the governments of United States and Canada before they get it?

When governments large and small "do business" they are treated like corporations. This means, among other things, that the painter seeking to contract with a city government to paint city hall has the opportunity to check out the city's credit/financial rating and the city doesn't have the option of reneging on the contract by claiming a sort of sovereign immunity.

But unlike the business down the street the governments of cities, states, provinces and nations, according to their constitutions or charters, have the authority to make and enforce binding law.

Freemen, in their willful ignorance, ignore that last bit when the they pretend they can opt out of the rule of law by canceling a sort of contract they imagine has been put in place between them and government.

Everything you said is correct, but I should add one more thing. A lot of freemen (Dean Clifford and Santos Bonacci among them) insist that governments are "FOR PROFIT" corporations. This is so far from the truth. A few years back, when Rob Ford was elected Mayor of Toronto, the outgoing Mayor announced a $367 million surplus. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/09 ... ficit.html

As a result, by year-end, there’s always a “surplus” — ranging from $5.8 million in 2004 to $95.1 million in 2007 and to $367.5 million last year. These funds are automatically rolled over to the next year to reduce the total in taxes needed for the coming year.

[wserra]

I have found canada on the same site where folks wrongly claim you can find your birth certificate.

Link, please.

[bmxninja357]

i found a link, however i could not dig out some of the others i had seen. this lists, canada, um i mean, CANADA on the sec site. and it used to be frequently sited by the opca crowd.

http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar ... getcompany

the listing under it gave me a chuckle. and i will be damned if i can remember where the court houses are listed.

as i said im trying to bury myths and many here know more on the subjects than i.

thanks for the inputs and clarifications.
ninj

[Wake Up! Productions]

I have found canada on the same site where folks wrongly claim you can find your birth certificate.

Link, please.

I could be wrong, but I think this is what Ninja was referring to: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar ... efilings=0

[morrand]

So is a nation like canada registered as a corporation? And if so why?

I have found canada on the same site where folks wrongly claim you can find your birth certificate. Why is it there? Are all nations there?

Based on the subsequent link to the US SEC website, the answer becomes fairly clear. Canada is registered there, not as a corporation, but as an issuer of securities: in this case, notes, and bonds, and whatever else the government issues to borrow money to fund its operations. Or, more specifically, what it issues in order to borrow money from US sources: the SEC's jurisdiction extends pretty much over the US markets, and that's about it.

Canada must register for the same reason that any other issuer—corporation, government, or individual—has to register: so potential investors know who it is they're dealing with, and what their condition is. (It is, after all, the Securities and Exchange Commission, not the See, Everyone's Corporate! office.) Hence, you get the most recent filing for Canada: a recap of the October 19 elections, showing the Liberals taking a majority of the votes, but also that the PC Party took 4,472 votes, leading the Communists slightly at 4,382, but significantly trailing the Rhinoceros Party with 7,349 votes. (I have no idea what any of this really means, other than that the Canadian electoral system is much more diverse and interesting than any I've experienced in the US.) Note that the SEC forms used by Canada are specific to foreign governments; businesses use a different set of forms that are more suitable for describing them, and that would presumably include CANADA if it were a business rather than a country.

The only nations that should be listed are the ones seeking investors in the US markets, or who have in the past, or who plan to in the future. That's a whole lot of nations, but not necessarily all of them. You can, of course, set up a government, never seek foreign investment, and never have to register with the SEC.

Needless to say, this proves absolutely nothing about the CANADA Corporation, birth bonds, or anything else.

[Wake Up! Productions]

Based on the subsequent link to the US SEC website, the answer becomes fairly clear. Canada is registered there, not as a corporation, but as an issuer of securities

I have to disagree with this point.

Is Michelle Robinson Obama (CIK#: 0001330088) a corporation or "an issuer of securities"? http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar ... getcompany

BILL & MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION TRUST CIK#: 0001166559 http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar ... efilings=0

ROCKEFELLER DAVID CIK#: 0001204357 http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar ... efilings=0

Hell, even "MADONNA" and "BRITNEY SPEARS" used to be listed there !!!

[bmxninja357]

if a mod would like to break this subject to a different category feel free. im just trying to get the straight dope so when it comes up in opca circles i know i can debunk it and move on. i think wup would like to get the knowledge to as it comes up more often than you think.

peace,
ninj

[Wake Up! Productions]

if a mod would like to break this subject to a different category feel free. im just trying to get the straight dope so when it comes up in opca circles i know i can debunk it and move on. i think wup would like to get the knowledge to as it comes up more often than you think.

peace,
ninj

Yes, I do think that this should be a different topic on its own. It bares little relevance to the Dean Clifford topic that we are currently in.

[notorial dissent]

Based on the subsequent link to the US SEC website, the answer becomes fairly clear. Canada is registered there, not as a corporation, but as an issuer of securities

I have to disagree with this point.

Is Michelle Robinson Obama (CIK#: 0001330088) a corporation or "an issuer of securities"? http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar ... getcompany

BILL & MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION TRUST CIK#: 0001166559 http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar ... efilings=0

ROCKEFELLER DAVID CIK#: 0001204357 http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar ... efilings=0

Hell, even "MADONNA" and "BRITNEY SPEARS" used to be listed there !!!

dog's streuth I don't know which I hate more stupid people or stupid gov't organizations that try and fit a round peg in a square hole.

The reason for Michelle's name is appearing there is that she is a DIRECTOR (of something called Treehouse if you're interested) of a public corporation, or which I assume she may also own some stock in. This is a reporting function and means exactly nothing otherwise.

The Gates Foundation is there for the same reason, they own beaucoup chunks of public companies, probably/possibly controlling interest in some. All of which requires reporting of one kind or another.

Canada(as well as any other foreign country for that matter) shows up for the more prosaic and usual reason of being a bond/securities generator. If they want to sell any kind of bonds/paper on/in the US markets they have to follow the (generally)same procedures that and corporate entity does, i.e. register and provide the information that the SEC wants, which then appears on EDGER. The same is true of regular foreign corporations who want to either sell paper or have their stock traded on the US market. I would venture to say that the Bourse and the City markets in London have similar reporting requirements.

So is a nation like canada registered as a corporation? And if so why?

Ninj, now to get back to your actual question now that I've answered the other half of it.

The answer is YES and NO. Gov'ts are corporations in the sense that they have a legal personality, presence, and existence, they are corporeal in the sense of existing in the world, which is where the word comes from originally, and they are legally and actually separate and distinct from the people/individual/entity that created them. The antique phrase was body corporate and politic, and usually referred to religious orders and chapters so that they had a distinct legal existence apart from the people who made them up. In other words they continued despite the fact that the members of the Chapter all eventually died and were replaced many times over the years, or the head of the university was replaced, but the university remained in existence. The head was the visible presence/authority of the university, but he wasn't the university as it would continue on past him. As time progressed this same function devolved in to what became medieval cities, they were created, by charter, as were the others, of the King or local noble, and the charter made them a distinct body corporate and politic to handle the obligations and duties of a city, again distinct and separate of the Mayors and aldermen and clerks or whatever that actually ran the city. In most of these cases the body corporate and politic(here's that phrase again) had succession in perpetuity, which meant that legally they could not/did not die and so weren't subject to any of the death taxes and such when they changed leaders, the corporation continued even when the leadership changed. These were usually what we would call modernly a corporation Sole, in that there was only one guiding hand, the Mayor, the Chancellor, the Dean, etc. The original British universities are mostly the result of this sort of foundation, their charters date back to the medieval period or maybe earlier and they have continued on down to this day. The City of London, as opposed to London proper is a similar beastie, it was created by Royal Charter in 1189 and still pretty much runs by that charter, Lord Mayor pomp and circumstance and all.

What we consider to be a corporation didn't really come in to being until fairly modern times, and it wasn't until the 19th C that business corporations really came in to being. Prior to that time a business corporation, the British East India Company, The Virginia Company, etc were royal charters granted to a group of individuals, usually for large amounts of cash swapping hands, and they were all one offs. We get in to the 19thC and the states started passing laws about forming corporations, although in many cases they had to be "created" by the state legislatures to begin with. When corporations became more common and more a part of business, the legislatures, for the most part, got out of the incorporation business and set up rules and regulations about what you had to do to form a corporation. That is where the modern for profit business corporation came from. At some point they also decided that there could be non-profit corporations that followed pretty much the same rules but didn't return a profit to shareholders.

So to put that in brief, modern business and non-profit corporations are created by individuals following the rules and regulations of the state they are incorporating in. They are creations by virtue of the State's authority. In both cases the corporations are owned in a sense, real or technical, by either their shareholders or their members.

Govt's are corporations in that they are political creations of a group that sets them up to do a thing separately and distinctly from the people setting them up. Gov'ts are not owned by, but are affected by the voters that set them up.

[wserra]

Ah, an SEC listing, per EDGAR.

Canada sells bonds in the US. Like any other entity that sells securities here, they must register with the SEC, both as an entity and for each securities offering. Take a look at filing 424B2, at the moment the third most recent. It is a pricing supplement to a prospectus for a Canadian government fixed-rate note, issue date 8-25-15, offered in the US. Next take a look at the type of registration Canada has, upper left corner of the search results page: "foreign government". Not "corporation", "government". Sorry, ninj, this stuff not only isn't rocket science, but proves my point rather than yours.

ETA: late to the ball again. Don't you people sleep?

[wserra]

The reason for Michelle's name is appearing there is that she is a DIRECTOR (of something called Treehouse if you're interested) of a public corporation, or which I assume she may also own some stock in. This is a reporting function and means exactly nothing otherwise.

And, if you check the nature of her SEC registration, it is not as a corporation, but (as nd says) a "reporting owner".

Round pegs, square holes, indeed.

[bmxninja357]

thanks for all the input. i actually appreciate when a misconception is explained. thats learning for ya.

prior to this thread i believed countries were incorporated for the purpose of doing business. i did not think this would have any effect on a nations sovereignty. i just believed it made business easier. thanks for sorting it out.

now to whittle it down to a bit i can use in conversation to set others right or at least try without leaving room for more weasel questions and gotcha words.

peace,
ninj

[Llwellyn]

There is another function of nations/countries being listed.. and this comes with a huge list/recipe of items and requirements. That comes to things like, CAD.. the Canadian Dollar being TRADED via foreign nations, (any currency of a nation, being traded is listed/secured).. now, how do you value the CAD.. uhm.. that is in part and parcel of the next steps and reason for being listed.
Canada does international trade with the USA.. goods are shipped back and forth between the nations, and even things like.. OIL, GAS, ELECTRICITY are traded directly via the governments .. (right now, if western Canada cut the electricity lines going into the USA, most of mid west/west coast USA would be blacked out.. almost 1/3rd of everything Montana / west is powered in part through Canada). Now, many companies/corporations DO trade these commodities ..but only with the permission/regulation/controls of the governmental bodies.
Things like this are measured/counted .. and used to gauge a countries Gross National Product, and Gross Trade.. in which is used as a variable for calculating the dollar value, that is then used again, in national/international trading houses.

Please note, this is a REALLY REALLY REALLLLLLLLY simplified explanation, but it is in part, why nations and countries are listed on or through things like the SEC.. without a 'body' to organize things.. how would anyone know who was doing/trading/making/selling what...

This does not make the nation a CORPORATION in the sense of a 'business run for profit'.

Llwellyn
Guardian and Keeper of the Tor