Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

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LordEd
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by LordEd »

Psam wrote:my arguments do include the assertion that any state whose officials or proponents declare that there are absolutely no circumstances under which such an alternative would be respected is thus illustrating the invalidity of its claim of authority.
Fortunately, we live in Canada and ALL laws can be changed, including your alternative.

If you get enough people to vote for your process (50% of all people in 2/3 of each province or something like that), you can have it.

How many have signed up? You didn't answer that.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Bill Lumbergh »

Psam wrote: Why is the Constitution the supreme law of Canada?

I expect that the reason for this is that the Queen signed it. Why do I think that? Well, just say Trudeau sr had shown up on that rainy day in April, 1982 and the Queen had said, "during our plane flight here We have had a change of heart and are no longer willing to sign this Constitution Act". Would the courts still allow the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to be used as a defence? I don't believe so.
Sure it could, if it was passed as a regular piece of legislation. It wouldn't be as effective as a constitutional protection though. Ever hear of the Canadian Bill of Rights?
So what makes her Majesty my Queen? Did "God" make Her my Queen? Well maybe, and I'm not going to say I can disprove that, so perhaps the Constitution is my supreme law. By that logic of course, the government is duly appointed and therefore I have no legitimate reason to show reasonable dissent. However, I don't agree that this assertion can be proven or disproven and therefore it should be considered possible that her Majesty is not my Queen, which would mean that the Constitution is not my supreme law, which would mean that the government is not "duly appointed" to govern Me.

Of course, the arguments between what I referred to as dissenters and statists can be applied in favour of the statists to say that She is my Queen because her state prevails as the law making institution in the land, with the force to back up its authority. The only part of the definition of "statist" that doesn't apply in this case is that the alleged government of Canada might not be perceived as "highly centralised". However, given that every single legislator, judge, enforcement officer, military officer, and many other public servants have pledged allegiance to the same Woman, there could be an argument made to say that it is highly centralised in authority structure despite a diversity of the bureaucratic portfolios assigned to the numerous branches of government that exist in Canada.

So in order to show that the legitimacy of the alleged government to claim the authority to govern Me, it must be demonstrated that her Majesty Elizabeth II is my Queen. I'd be happy to assume for the sake of argument that this is the case for further discussion.
Why are you so hung up on the Queen? Have you never opened a Canadian history book?
However, my arguments do include the assertion that any state whose officials or proponents declare that there are absolutely no circumstances under which such an alternative would be respected is thus illustrating the invalidity of its claim of authority.
An alternative system of governance cannot exist simultaneously and in competition to the current one. Surely you can think of some good reasons why this is so. As LordEd has repeatedly told you, you can change the existing system into whatever you want, provided you have the support. Do you?
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Psam »

Hyrion wrote:
Psam wrote:Any person who would say such a thing to his children should not be allowed to hold those children under his rules because he does not make reasonable or respectful rules.
You obviously haven't been exposed to very nasty children - or if you have, you're choosing to ignore that because you certainly aren't willing to tolerate any level of what you even perceive to be abuse.

Not all parents who state that are being abusive. In other words - your lumping such a response into a single aspect is just an another example of the extreme positions you prefer to take.

For example, parents who see to their own protection as well as the protection of their other children as a necessity when that 16 year old is involved in drug deals with gangs.
I apologise for my insensitive and bigoted comment. It is a very traumatising situation for a parent which I confess I have never dealt with.

Here's a suggestion.

http://www.ayahuasca-wasi.com/english/articles/NVC.pdf

Based on the psychological practice demonstrated at the above link, I would postulate that saying "my roof my rules" makes it more likely that the child or youth will continue to indulge in self destructive behaviour. It also suggests alternative methods to show firm but compassionate authority as to the requirements of cohabitation.

I would further suggest that the methods taught in the above link could be generalised to show a more practical method of speaking with a person who does not consent to the governance of a prevailing institution instead of saying "if you don't like it, leave".
Enfranchisement breeds social responsibility

“[L]aws command obedience because they are made by those whose conduct they govern.”
Supreme Court of Canada, Sauvé v Canada para 44: https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-c ... 0/index.do
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Dr. Caligari »

Psam wrote:I would further suggest that the methods taught in the above link could be generalised to show a more practical method of speaking with a person who does not consent to the governance of a prevailing institution instead of saying "if you don't like it, leave".
Fine, then. If you don't like it, eat cow shit with whipped cream.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Psam »

Bill Lumbergh wrote:An alternative system of governance cannot exist simultaneously and in competition to the current one. Surely you can think of some good reasons why this is so.
I can think of a lot of good reasons to support this theory, none of which are conclusive.
Enfranchisement breeds social responsibility

“[L]aws command obedience because they are made by those whose conduct they govern.”
Supreme Court of Canada, Sauvé v Canada para 44: https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-c ... 0/index.do
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Hyrion »

It's a wonderful world to live in where every human being is reasonable.

Unfortunately I don't live in that Society. There are two types (broadly speaking) of people I interact with regularly. Thankfully the greater percentage of those are people who are reasonable - they'll actually enter discussions when there's even a perceived issue in order to mutually work out an agreeable solution - if it's determined there was actually an issue in the first place.

Then there's the other type. I'm a pretty patient individual and show far more leniency and tolerance then the average person around me. However - with the "other" type - they don't want reasonable. They view attempting to deal with them with a calm tone of voice and reasonableness a weakness and become even more agressive. And when one decides to be a bit more agressive with ones defense - they become even more aggresive. This type always discovers too late that I'm not the prey they think I am.

So.... with regards speaking reasonably in order to deal with you - a person who does not consent to the governance of a prevailing institution - we've provided you with the ways with which you can change the system or in the alternative if you find the system will not change to get out from under it's thumb so-to-speak. These are the two solutions you asked of the Court - a way to work with you or to get you out of Canadian Jurisdiction. Granted: they're not the exact two solutions you recommended but they do fit the needs of what you asked for.

We've also made clear we're not interested in your system. We've also made clear most of us understand and agree with having a single Government with Jurisdiction over a particularly defined plot of land as well as over a certain class of human (Canadian Citizen).

If you can't understand why these points are reasonable - then perhaps this is another sign of the extreme position you've decided to take. It's too bad you can't understand why extreme positions are bad for both yourself and others. You took an extreme position by denouncing every parent who has done everything they could to deal with their child whose last resort was to send the child out into the world to fend for themselves earlier then they otherwise would have. That places you into a position of being a threat to those parents.

As you stated:
Psam wrote:Any person who would say such a thing to his children should not be allowed to hold those children under his rules because he does not make reasonable or respectful rules.
So you're clearly willing - if you had the authority - to take children away from their parents without even bothering to find out the background to what lead to said statement. Without finding out first if perhaps those children already have criminal convictions and the parents are just trying to survive said child. Without finding out first if the rules the parents expected the child to follow were actually reasonable - such as eating the main course and having a little desert as opposed to eating nothing but desert (one of my neices prefers eating nothing but desert).

So... you want us to be reasonable with you. You've given an offer, we've declined. You've tried to force your solution via the courts and you failed - your solution being that you can live within the borders of Canadian Jurisdiction but not be held to it's Laws with the alternate solution being to force Canadian politics to allow anyone to vote any time they want - and yet you claimed not to be trying to force anything on the Canadian public.

It's the extreme that is unreasonable - and you represent an extreme in many ways and that is clear in your authorings both here and the highly acidic authorings on your facebook page:
Psam wrote:If You think that your government that is elected once every four years has any right to govern me, then You are a worthless degenerate brainless spineless cowardly piece of filthy garbage.
You can claim all you want that we're being unreasonable and uncompassionate - but that does not change the reality that one only need review your own authorings to see that your just projecting your own failings on to others.

If you are so tuned into such things as compassion and understanding and reasonableness - then perhaps you should take some time to stop. Go back and review your own postings. Ask yourself just how reasonable, understanding and compassionate you've been.
Psam wrote:You are a worthless degenerate brainless spineless cowardly piece of filthy garbage.
Is that quote - that expression of your emotions at the time - really one of compassion, reasonableness and understanding?
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Burnaby49 »

We've also made clear we're not interested in your system. We've also made clear most of us understand and agree with having a single Government with Jurisdiction over a particularly defined plot of land as well as over a certain class of human (Canadian Citizen).
Incorrect. Canada has jurisdiction over any person within it's boundaries, not just Canadian citizens. Otherwise tourists could murder us all with impunity.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Psam »

Hyrion wrote:
Psam wrote:If You think that your government that is elected once every four years has any right to govern me, then You are a worthless degenerate brainless spineless cowardly piece of filthy garbage.
You can claim all you want that we're being unreasonable and uncompassionate - but that does not change the reality that one only need review your own authorings to see that your just projecting your own failings on to others.

If you are so tuned into such things as compassion and understanding and reasonableness - then perhaps you should take some time to stop. Go back and review your own postings. Ask yourself just how reasonable, understanding and compassionate you've been.
Psam wrote:You are a worthless degenerate brainless spineless cowardly piece of filthy garbage.
Is that quote - that expression of your emotions at the time - really one of compassion, reasonableness and understanding?
Certainly not, no, and thank You for holding Me to account on my exasperated venting. I don't know if an apology matters, but I hope the fact that I have avoided any such ranting in this forum counts for something. I am sincerely grateful for feedback, whether positive or negative.

I have done extensive mathematics to show why I believe that the interactive electoral system will provide greater stability, lower cost of implementation, higher proportion of satisfaction amongst electorate with all decisions made, and of course greater accountability, as well as a few other things. I have asked to have the mathematics of my predictions looked at and been ridiculed and ignored.

So I wanted to withdraw my consent to the governance of the prevailing institution.

Well then I get comments like "it is impossible for two states to coincide in the same land", spoken as though this is a conclusive fact, rather than a well postulated hypothesis. No willingness to consider this a rational debate, only insinuations that I am a fool.

Well I'm happy to be a fool as long as the reasons for my beliefs are given consideration, but they are treated with not just ignorance but even contempt. Is it so bad to wish it upon people that they be allowed to make choices with patience? Is it so bad to wish it upon people that they be asked for their opinion and then accorded the respect of trusting that they will take their part in the process seriously? Is it idiotic to think that a theory should be analysed by example rather than guessing?

I don't think so but I'd much rather be shown contempt by people willing to have a conversation than shown polite dismissal by people who can't be bothered.
Enfranchisement breeds social responsibility

“[L]aws command obedience because they are made by those whose conduct they govern.”
Supreme Court of Canada, Sauvé v Canada para 44: https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-c ... 0/index.do
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Hyrion »

Burnaby49 wrote:Incorrect. Canada has jurisdiction over any person within it's boundaries, not just Canadian citizens. Otherwise tourists could murder us all with impunity.
Yea - I should have clarified that point while I was clarifying another point I noticed. So... to clarify what I intended to mean:
  • Jurisdiction over any person within it's Jurisdictional landmass boundries
  • Jurisdiction over Canadians - in at least some cases even outside the landmass boundries
I'm not sure about full Jurisdiction over Canadians outside of Canada but I do suspect at least some such as via potential taxes on income earned elsewhere.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Psam »

Hyrion wrote:
ISS Summation Of Principles wrote:If a member's understanding or interpretation of these principles is believed to be unsatisfactory to other members of this society, then a process of judicial inquiry shall be available to the membership for resolution of such disagreements.
I thought a Sovereign (as they generally define themselves) was one with no one above him - one exempt from the governance of another.

So isn't the fact that ISS has a judicial inquiry process with an assigned chief of justice a tad contradictory?

Doesn't the ISS expect it's members to abide by whatever ruling the chief of justice makes thereby confirming that the chief of justice is "above" them? And if they have the option to abide or not and they choose not to - then doesn't that leave said disagreement unresolved?
The Interactive Sovereign Society Constitution http://issociety.org/wp-content/uploads ... tution.pdf states that "it is recognized that sovereignty can never be truly realized without love, trust, and mutual respect between Those who assert their sovereignty". A Sovereign may have no One else above Her or Him, yes, but the natural circumstances of coexistence dictate that sovereignty is somewhat illusory in a sense. This quote from the ISS Constitution illustrates that some form of dispute resolution process must be shared to promote some kind of mutual values that predispose a society to respectful coexistence.

The only powers attributed to the Chief of Justice in the ISS are (1) designating which members are qualified to act as judicial panel chairs and (2) choosing which panel chair presides when a hearing is called. http://issociety.org/wp-content/uploads ... ations.pdf The Chief of Justice is not "above" any member, but an impartial and independent form of judicial oversight to the common set of values accepted by each member is regarded as essential to allow those values to be adjudicated to provide as much common ground as possible when there is a disagreement.

One further point about the quote from the ISS Constitution is that I have heard no dispute as to the sovereignty of Elizabeth II by any ISS member ever. Showing love, trust, and respect toward her Majesty is therefore, according to the ISS Constitution, required conduct for an ISS member. By extension, this should mean that showing love, trust, and respect to the individuals under her governance should be a constitutional requirement of an ISS member. I have heard no contention whatsoever to this interpretation of the ISS Constitution in the five years that the society has existed.

This is why I really do owe the members of this website an apology for my Facebook rants. There is certainly no love, trust, and respect in many of the things I have said, and I should be at least required to apologize if I am willing to show any sincerity in my commitment to the Constitution I have acknowledged as my supreme law. If there is anything else I can do to remedy the harm that my comments have done, I am willing to hear suggestions.
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“[L]aws command obedience because they are made by those whose conduct they govern.”
Supreme Court of Canada, Sauvé v Canada para 44: https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-c ... 0/index.do
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Burnaby49 »

Hyrion wrote:
Burnaby49 wrote:Incorrect. Canada has jurisdiction over any person within it's boundaries, not just Canadian citizens. Otherwise tourists could murder us all with impunity.
Yea - I should have clarified that point while I was clarifying another point I noticed. So... to clarify what I intended to mean:
  • Jurisdiction over any person within it's Jurisdictional landmass boundries
  • Jurisdiction over Canadians - in at least some cases even outside the landmass boundries
I'm not sure about full Jurisdiction over Canadians outside of Canada but I do suspect at least some such as via potential taxes on income earned elsewhere.
Canada taxes residents of Canada whether they are citizens or not. It all depends on whether you are a resident as a question of fact. So if I went to Saudi for five months but maintained the hallmarks of residence in Canada (house, wife, kids, bank accounts) I would be taxable on my Saudi income. There are frequent Tax Court cases on the issue where the judge ponders the various indications of residence and makes a Solomnic decision based on weight of facts. However if I abandoned all connecting factors to Canada but just maintained my citizenship I would not be taxable in Canada until such time as I returned. This differs from the USA where citizens are taxable on world income whether they reside in America or not.

I know a Canadian couple where the husband made very good money in a full-time job in Vancouver but they avoided Canadian taxes by living in Point Roberts, a small chunk of America less than 25 miles from downtown Vancouver. They were residents of the United States and paid American taxes.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Hyrion »

Psam wrote:I am sincerely grateful for feedback, whether positive or negative.
Are you? You have responded to feedback you receive claiming it's unreasonable and lacking in compassion rather than treating the feedback as honest opinions with regards the current state of Government and Laws.

I'm not going to respond to your entire post. All of it has already been well covered. This circular unending trail is what causes people to no longer want to continue to respond to you.

As examples, I'll simply respond to two points - and if you think honestly about them, you'll see the ground has either already been well covered or you should already understand the situation.

Point 1: We point out the reality that your Lawful method of leaving Canadian Jurisdiction is one of:
  • 1) Move outside the land Jurisdictional boundries and renounce Canadian Citizenship
  • 2) Seceed
I specifically used the conflict of a father over his aging teenager as an example - using a phrase most people can reasonably be expected to be familiar with. Instead of reflecting on the extreme, it would have been far more beneficial for you to reflect on the reality that the teenager has done nothing to earn, or be entitled, to his father's property. And that the teenager has a very simple solution so he no longer has to follow the house rules in the form of moving out:
  • Take full responsibility for himself, get a job, and get his own home.
You might not want to move out of the geographical Jurisdiction of Canada for whatever reasons. However, you are living on Canadian land. Which means if you want to leave the Jurisdiction of Canada and keep that land, the only lawful way you can do so is by succeeding in seceeding. And the only way you're going to do that is with a much larger portion of the population behind you. Which logically means you have a tough road ahead of you to convince others that your ways are better than the ways of Canada. And it makes it even harder for you when you appear to be focused on solutions and points that are fated to fail.

Point 2: Your apparent belief that two leaders could rule over the same Jurisdiction.

You know that when you get two people together they will sooner or later run into conflict. You are living it in the form of you trying to convince others your ways are better then those of Canadian Society and not succeeding.

You know such a situation of conflict - if left unresolved - leads to frustration and anger:
Psam wrote:my exasperated venting
So... all that's left in the equation is what happens when two people want to lead the same "other" people in two conflicting directions and there is no higher authority to resolve the dispute.
  • 1) Frustration and anger, left unresolved, leads to agression
  • 2) Agression left unresolved leads to conflict
  • 3) Increasing conflict ultimately - if it isn't stopped somewhere along the way - leads to war
How can you not see that obvious conclusion when both history, and current events, continue to prove over and over when two leaders have unresolved conflict war is the result.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Hyrion »

Psam wrote:A Sovereign may have no One else above Her or Him, yes, but the natural circumstances of coexistence dictate that sovereignty is somewhat illusory in a sense.
Ding ding ding - we have a winner who finally realizes that true sovereignty with every person being equal to every other in authority is an illusion. Or at least, that's my understanding of what was stated.
Psam wrote:judicial panel chairs ... presides when a hearing is called ... The Chief of Justice is not "above" any member
You and the Judge that ruled over your Court case are equal when you're in the local supermarket buying your fruit. But when it comes to a dispute that requires resolution - either you are bound by the ruling of the Judge and therefore that persons decision is "above you" on that subject or you are not bound by the ruling.

Are you bound by the ruling of the ISS panel/justice who presides when a hearing is called? If so - then you're claim they are not "above you" is not reflecting reality. And by "above you" I am clearly speaking to having the authority to make a decision by which you are lawfully bound.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by The Observer »

Burnaby49 wrote:Incorrect. Canada has jurisdiction over any person within it's boundaries, not just Canadian citizens. Otherwise tourists could murder us all with impunity.
I wish you had told me that before I went on my murder spree in Victoria last September.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by wserra »

The Observer wrote:I wish you had told me that before I went on my murder spree in Victoria last September.
It was Victoria's secret.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Bill Lumbergh »

Psam wrote:
Bill Lumbergh wrote:An alternative system of governance cannot exist simultaneously and in competition to the current one. Surely you can think of some good reasons why this is so.
I can think of a lot of good reasons to support this theory, none of which are conclusive.
You really don't think it's cold hard fact that it would be completely unfeasible to have multiple (even millions!) of "sovereign societies" all operating within the same territorial boundaries?

Go on then, provide a rational explanation of how that would work.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Psam »

To break this down,

Two people live in proximity.

If both people are capable of freely engaging in whatever life they please without infringing in any way upon the other's ability to do so, then we have freedom unrestricted by circumstance.

If one person's engagement in their free choice of action infringes upon the other's free choice of action, then we have a need for compromise.

If a compromise is agreed upon that is acceptable to both people, then we have freedom consensually restricted by circumstance.

In preparation for restrictions to freedom caused by circumstance, it is wise for two people to agree upon a dispute resolution process. That way there is no conflict if ever an incompatibility arises that makes unrestricted freedom impossible. An independent and impartial third party is a sensible way to do this.

Say there is a disagreement about how to define that dispute resolution process, and one person says "we'll I've decided that my process is the one we're going with, and I have [more strength, better weapons, more people on my side, more intelligence by my own reckoning, or whatever else] to be able to enforce this process, so that's how it's going to be". The person uses the excuse that "if we don't have a dispute resolution process of some sort then we will have conflict and both of our freedoms will be infringed by that conflict, because we can't just have unrestricted freedom without a conflict eventually arising". It is then that person's fault that the other person's freedom is infringed, and that person has created the conditions, which may hypothetically have never come about if not for that person's arrogance, that cause the thing that he claims must be prevented.

A fair and impartial third party being agreed upon in advance by both parties in potential dispute is a good way to resolve disputes, but how to define who that third party is and what kind of process is undertaken by that third party if and when a dispute arises, that is the question at hand.

Now look at the difference between periodic democrats and interactive democrats.

Periodic democrats take interactive democrats' money and once every four years, an X in a box is used to determine how that money is spent.

Interactive democrats say "well why can't we pay our taxes to a legislative body that allows us to freely make our choices when we feel informed and ready instead of only once every four years?"

Periodic democrats say "because there has to be one method of dispute resolution about how taxes are spent or else we may have a conflict eventually, and we have more strength, more weapons, more people, and more intelligence by our own reckoning, so we've decided that our system is the one that's going to be used".

Interactive democrats say "but we've already agreed upon an independent and impartial third party to resolve disputes if your periodically elected government disagrees with the way our taxes are spent! Look at our society's External Legislation Registry! It acknowledges superior provincial courts as an independent and impartial third party in case there is ever a dispute between your periodically elected government and our interactively elected representatives!" (Pages 3 to 4: http://issociety.org/wp-content/uploads/ELR.pdf)

The periodic democrats say "it won't work anyway so there's not even any need to demonstrate that it won't work. We're smart enough to see that and your not so we've decided that you get one small bit of input into how your taxes are spent once every four years and the rest of the time pay your taxes or go to jail. It's the only sensible way to do it. Trust us, we know."
Enfranchisement breeds social responsibility

“[L]aws command obedience because they are made by those whose conduct they govern.”
Supreme Court of Canada, Sauvé v Canada para 44: https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-c ... 0/index.do
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by LordEd »

Psam wrote:Periodic democrats take interactive democrats' money and once every four years, an X in a box is used to determine how that money is spent.

Interactive democrats say "well why can't we pay our taxes to a legislative body that allows us to freely make our choices when we feel informed and ready instead of only once every four years?"

Interactive democrats say "but we've already agreed upon an independent and impartial third party to resolve disputes if your periodically elected government disagrees with the way our taxes are spent! Look at our society's External Legislation Registry! It acknowledges superior provincial courts as an independent and impartial third party in case there is ever a dispute between your periodically elected government and our interactively elected representatives!" (Pages 3 to 4: http://issociety.org/wp-content/uploads/ELR.pdf)

The periodic democrats say "it won't work anyway so there's not even any need to demonstrate that it won't work. We're smart enough to see that and your not so we've decided that you get one small bit of input into how your taxes are spent once every four years and the rest of the time pay your taxes or go to jail. It's the only sensible way to do it. Trust us, we know."
Wrong.

First of all, your representatives are not in a vacuum where you can't talk to them. You get to choose a representative every 4 years or sooner. You can contact them constantly.

Your interactive system does not have, nor pay for all of the benefits the 'interactive democrat' is getting via the 'periodic democrat' system, such as healthcare, education, communications, welfare, emergency services, food safety, border security, park maintenance, etc. Your interactive system also is not contributing or maintaining any of the system's current debt, nor the legal system that you say is acknowledged as a 3rd party dispute mechanism. If Quebec were to separate, don't think they wouldn't be carrying either a per-person or per-km^2 allotment of the national debt with them as baggage.

And again, how many members does ISS have? Is it one?

Edit: quote tag error.
Last edited by LordEd on Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hyrion
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Hyrion »

Psam wrote:If a compromise is agreed upon that is acceptable to both people, then we have freedom consensually restricted by circumstance.
There's your first mistake. You never spoke to what happens if a compromise is not agreed upon. And this happens a lot in real life.
Psam wrote:it is wise for two people to agree upon a dispute resolution process
There's your second and third mistakes - first, even wise people disagree and that could very well include on how to resolve a disagreement. Second, there are those individuals in society who will not act with wisdom. Again, you fail to identify a solution when there is a disagreement - in this case when it involves wise people who disagree how to proceed with a resolution or unwise people who choose not to act with wisdom but instead with simple selfish desires.
Psam wrote:Say there is a disagreement about how to define that dispute resolution process ... It is then that person's fault that the other person's freedom is infringed, and that person has created the conditions, which may hypothetically have never come about if not for that person's arrogance, that cause the thing that he claims must be prevented.
There's your fourth mistake: ok, so you've identified who to blame. The dispute still exists unresolved.
Psam wrote:A fair and impartial third party being agreed upon in advance by both parties in potential dispute is a good way to resolve disputes
Fifth mistake: not everyone will agree upon an impartial third party deciding the dispute. You don't speak at all to how to deal with those individuals.
Psam wrote:Now look at the difference between periodic democrats and interactive democrats
...
Interactive democrats say "but we've already agreed upon an independent and impartial third party to resolve disputes if your periodically elected government disagrees with the way our taxes are spent!
Bingo - and because us "other" democrats are not interested in your resolution process - you can't hold us to it. Remember mistake number 5 above? This is proof that it exists.
Psam wrote:Look at our society's External Legislation Registry! It acknowledges superior provincial courts as an independent and impartial third party in case there is ever a dispute
Assuming you mean "superior provincial courts" in the context of the Courts overseeing the Laws of Canada: your agreement is an illusion. It doesn't matter to me whether "your society" has agreed to a resolution in the Courts of Canada - because whether or not you and/or your Society agrees to that, any dispute between you and me will be resolved there. In short, you're forced to a resolution by a specific third party that is already part of Canadian Law and it's just an illusion that you had a choice not to select said third party.

So... you left unanswered important points with regards how "your society" would work with that "other government" with the exception that "your society" has agreed to be bound by Canadian Laws anyway. Unless you think you can somehow argue in a Canadian Court that "your society's laws" should be applied instead of Canadian Laws - in which case that's an illusion too.
Bill Lumbergh
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Bill Lumbergh »

LordEd wrote: Your interactive system does not have, nor pay for all of the benefits the 'interactive democrat' is getting via the 'periodic democrat' system, such as healthcare, education, communications, welfare, emergency services, food safety, border security, park maintenance, etc. Your interactive system also is not contributing or maintaining any of the system's current debt, nor the legal system that you say is acknowledged as a 3rd party dispute mechanism. If Quebec were to separate, don't think they wouldn't be carrying either a per-person or per-km^2 allotment of the national debt with them as baggage.
Spot on and the problems you highlighted are bad enough where only two "sovereign societies" are envisioned as somehow co-existing. Now imagine that instead of two sovereign societies (Canada and ISS) you have two million (since there would be nothing stopping others from starting their own sovereign groups). Now those two million sovereign societies are expected to agree on this mythical third party adjudicator to settle disputes? How would anything get done? And of course, none of the problems you highlighted would be solved.