Snow removal ticket

[Tsubodai]

Perhaps the only lesson to be learned here is ... never buy a corner lot !!!

That is the truth.

I work in the oil patch so I was thinking I may have a lot of extra time pretty soon to waste on this. It is too bad though that all that free time will also mean I have no excuses not to get the maintenance done.

[Chaos]

Not correct, at least in Vancouver. The sidewalk in front of my house is public land exactly the same as the street itself is public land. My property line stops perhaps ten feet from the curb but I am responsible for some of the maintenance of that ten feet. Actual repairs (broken sidewalk, water damage) are the municipality's responsibility. However clearing the sidewalk of snow and ice are legally my responsibility even though I don't own the land. Rarely enforced here in Vancouver but I have seen it done.

I'm in the wacky US. Here, our property lines go all the way to the street. But we don't own the sidewalks. I don't have one on my side luckily but my neighbors across the street do. There is a sidewalk on another street where the people's tree uprooted the sidewalk. Somehow the town got a grant that covered coming and repairing the sidewalk while my neighbor was told he had to repair the walk in front of his house that is broken up. It's bullshit as far as I'm concerned.

[bmxninja357]

Perhaps the only lesson to be learned here is ... never buy a corner lot !!!

That is the truth.

I work in the oil patch so I was thinking I may have a lot of extra time pretty soon to waste on this. It is too bad though that all that free time will also mean I have no excuses not to get the maintenance done.

edmonton has a stick up its butt with a lot of the bylaws. and the better the neighbourhood the farther up that stick goes. might i suggest looking on kijiji for snow shovelers. there is usually an abundance of them who work cheap. get one to come every time it snows and pay them when your in town. many will do that.

in edmonton your responsible for the sidewalk and grass cutting next to your property from sidewalk to road. the trees and sidewalk cement are the citys problem.

and generally if its your first ticket and you go to court and explain (it was xmas) you were out of town and have now hired someone to do it when you cant be there they will drop it. generally. but if your working it may be more cost effective to pay it.

peace,
ninj

[Wake Up! Productions]

and generally if its your first ticket and you go to court and explain (it was xmas) you were out of town and have now hired someone to do it when you cant be there they will drop it. generally. but if your working it may be more cost effective to pay it.

peace,
ninj

I would assume a municipal bylaw ticket would be the same as a ticket for riding your bike on the sidewalk. When I was 18 I got an $85 ticket for riding on the sidewalk. I went to court (which was really a justice of the peace sitting behind a desk in an office) and pled "guilty with an excuse". He heard my point of view out, and then reduced the ticket from $85 down to $25.

[bmxninja357]

I would assume a municipal bylaw ticket would be the same as a ticket for riding your bike on the sidewalk. When I was 18 I got an $85 ticket for riding on the sidewalk. I went to court (which was really a justice of the peace sitting behind a desk in an office) and pled "guilty with an excuse". He heard my point of view out, and then reduced the ticket from $85 down to $25.

I ride a bmx so I can almost always beat riding on the sidewalk. Most cities have a bylaw that says wheels 50cm or 20 inches or less are not a bicycle. Nifty huh?

Ninj

[Wake Up! Productions]

I would assume a municipal bylaw ticket would be the same as a ticket for riding your bike on the sidewalk. When I was 18 I got an $85 ticket for riding on the sidewalk. I went to court (which was really a justice of the peace sitting behind a desk in an office) and pled "guilty with an excuse". He heard my point of view out, and then reduced the ticket from $85 down to $25.

I ride a bmx so I can almost always beat riding on the sidewalk. Most cities have a bylaw that says wheels 50cm or 20 inches or less are not a bicycle. Nifty huh?

Ninj

This is my summer ride:



Legally it is a "bicycle", as it has peddles, but it goes 40 kph. No license or insurance required - a freeman's dream !!!

[ArthurWankspittle]

That's nothing - look up the French Voiture Sans Permit. Usually driven by a drunk octogenarian with bad eyesight.

[eric]

Thanks for all the replies. I know I wouldn't win and have no real plans of fighting the fine.

I'm was aware that the city says this is my responsibility and I guess it could be said I chose not to do it, out of town, but where is the line the city can't cross. There are street lights and curbs on the same property, could the city pass a bylaw that those were also my job and force me to get a long ladder and change the bulbs?

In Alberta a short answer to your question is yes, but with some qualifiers. If the repair, replacement, or adding some new item to the infrastructure could be classified as a "local improvement", homeowners who would benefit from such may be rquired to pay for it through a levy on their property taxes. Here is where you get the chance to play the FMOTL game from a historical perspective. In Canada, the non-school portion of your property taxes were intended to replace the homeowner's responsibility for maintaining the roadway in front of his homestead. In a few cases, the authorities neglected to pass the appropriate enabling legislation so that in theory you could show up at the town hall with a shovel and claim you were there to pay your property taxes by fixing the road in front of your house through manual labour - about 15 years ago some homeowners in Kitchener Ontario, when hit with what they considered an outrageous local improvement levy did exactly that in protest.

On a personal note, in my village, the council has attempted to pave the street where I live through a local improvement levy for years. There is actually Alberta legislation that allows affected homeowners to refuse the levy by petition of 75% of affected residents. Guess what - we are quite proud that our street hasn't been paved for 100 years and counting, although we do have excellent sidewalks.
BTW, going out now to shovel the snow off said sidewalk....

[Tsubodai]

BTW, going out now to shovel the snow off said sidewalk....

Already done, and was out last night cleaning up the new batch.

Thanks for the history. I am thinking of being a jerk for a while though and either roping off the sidewalk with yellow caution tape or just leaving shovels with notes at either end that state "If you have a problem with the condition of this sidewalk please feel free to improve our community."

Two points in my "defense" : 1) I live two blocks from a school so by the time i get home from work the snow is completely packed. 2) The snow was cleared there many times but not to the city standard of down to the pavement. Totally safe to walk on without any icy patches, but enough with excuses.

Thanks again

[Wake Up! Productions]

I am thinking of being a jerk for a while though and either roping off the sidewalk with yellow caution tape or just leaving shovels with notes at either end that state "If you have a problem with the condition of this sidewalk please feel free to improve our community."

First of all, you can not "rope off" or close down a public sidewalk. Secondly, the fact that you admit that you live "two blocks from a school" even furthers the point that the snow needs to be cleared - that is, unless you want a child to get injured and the parents sue you. Thirdly, you are also not even considering the elderly or handicapped.

As much as you may say that you aren't a freeman, you exhibit all of the traits - right down to being selfish, thoughtless, careless, and just plain LAZY !!!

[noblepa]

Perhaps things are different in Canada, but here in Ohio, I own the land under the sidewalk in front of my house. The city has an easement for the sidewalk, allowing public access. Even though I own the land, I can not prohibit others from walking past my house on "my" sidewalk.

Since it is my land, I am responsible for the installation, maintenance and snow removal of the sidewalk.

I'm not sure exactly where my lot line ends. In a former home, in the same community, I know that my lot extended to the center of the street. The city had an easement for four lanes, but had chosen to build only two, north of my lot line. I had a wide tree lawn between the sidewalk and the pavement, but the city could, if they chose, widen the street without my permission, as they already had an easement.

I know this is true, because, while I lived there, the city decided to begin enforcing an ordinance requiring sidewalks in front of all the homes on the street. Many of the older homes had no sidewalk, and were going to be forced to pay to have one installed. I attended a meeting at City Hall, where all of this was explained. My home, being one of the newer ones, already had a sidewalk. Some homeowners wanted the city to move the sidewalk closer to the pavement, but the city lawyer explained that, if they ever widened the street, the sidewalks would be up agains the pavement, with not tree lawn.

Even though there are laws on the books requiring snow removal, I have read that courts have been pretty lenient in enforcing those laws, at least in lawsuits for injury when someone slipped on the ice. The courts have ruled that ice is a very common occurence around here and pedestrians have an obligation to be careful.

[Tsubodai]

As much as you may say that you aren't a freeman, you exhibit all of the traits - right down to being selfish, thoughtless, careless, and just plain LAZY !!!

Get your panties untied I was having a bit of fun.

[Wake Up! Productions]

As much as you may say that you aren't a freeman, you exhibit all of the traits - right down to being selfish, thoughtless, careless, and just plain LAZY !!!

Get your panties untied I was having a bit of fun.

FYI, just a hint, this is where comes in handy.

[Burnaby49]

As much as you may say that you aren't a freeman, you exhibit all of the traits - right down to being selfish, thoughtless, careless, and just plain LAZY !!!

Get your panties untied I was having a bit of fun.

Even so keep in mind that I believe it is an offense, at least here, to obstruct a sidewalk apart from maintenance and repair. You don't want to compound things.

[Wake Up! Productions]

As much as you may say that you aren't a freeman, you exhibit all of the traits - right down to being selfish, thoughtless, careless, and just plain LAZY !!!

Get your panties untied I was having a bit of fun.

Even so keep in mind that I believe it is an offense, at least here, to obstruct a sidewalk apart from maintenance and repair. You don't want to compound things.

I'm just thankful I not American - in some cities you are fined just for chalking the sidewalk.

[NYGman]

On a similar note, urination in public is also against the law, here in NYC. Quite understandably, it is ok, if you are a dog, but not if you are human. I raise this point, as when my boys were little, and we were working on potty training, there were times where my boys would avail themselves to the nearest tree, to let nature take its course if we were outside, and not near any public conveniences.

One time, when my boys were with my wife, she got a Waring from the local police, when she took him out of the playground in central park, to use a tree to let nature take its course, a tree I will note dogs frequent all the time. So while I understand things are against the law for a reason, those that have the authority to ticket should really use their common sense.

[Wake Up! Productions]

On a similar note, urination in public is also against the law, here in NYC. Quite understandably, it is ok, if you are a dog, but not if you are human. I raise this point, as when my boys were little, and we were working on potty training, there were times where my boys would avail themselves to the nearest tree, to let nature take its course if we were outside, and not near any public conveniences.

One time, when my boys were with my wife, she got a Waring from the local police, when she took him out of the playground in central park, to use a tree to let nature take its course, a tree I will note dogs frequent all the time. So while I understand things are against the law for a reason, those that have the authority to ticket should really use their common sense.

See, we may be all here on Q for different reasons, but hopefully we all have common sense as to WHAT IS, and WHAT SHOULD BE.

Case in point, Tsubodai is attempting to make the point that he has the RIGHT to "opt out" of shoveling is SIDE sidewalk (if I am not mistaken). Apparently he has no problem shoveling is FRONT sidewalk. This may or may not be a "freeman" issue, but rather a MORAL issue.

My final thoughts (directed at Tsubodai) on the matter is ... if you have a beef with the City, then take it up with the City ... don't PUNISH your neighbours. This will not only result in you being fined, but it will also result in you becoming that "bad man" in your neighbourhood.

Basically, follow the GOLDEN RULE, do unto others as you would have done unto you. I am pretty certain you have slipped and fallen on your ass as a result of an uncleared sidewalk before - HURTS .. DON'T IT ???

[Tsubodai]

The whole point of my post was somewhat tongue in cheek. I have no desire to opt out of anything. From my reading of Q I realize that one of the biggest mistakes freeman make is confusing what is with what they feel should be.

WUP, I clean my sidewalks, driveway and volunteer plenty of time in my community so relax about thinking you know anything about me.

I was trying to bring a question of societal obligations to the table without talking in a theoretical or philosophical manner. I wanted to understand better the history and legalities of private vs. public property rights and obligations. I believe that most of responses I got understood this.

As I said in my first post I am a bit of a libertarian at heart but in reality I'm fully engaged in our society. I do not believe I am my brothers keeper nor do I believe the state should have the ability to control private property or expect services to be rendered by citizens without compensation. That being said I don't believe for a second that the state does not have that power. They need that ability for our society to function and everybody to get along. I'm grateful everyday that I live in such a free and fair society. Being a practical statist doesn't mean I can't have concerns about state powers though. I hope this clears up where I was actually coming from.

[Hyrion]

I was trying to bring a question of societal obligations to the table ...

That I got and responded to.

I wanted to understand better the history and legalities of private vs. public property rights and obligations.

Ahh... the history of how we got to where we are today - that I didn't get in your discussion/questions.

Being a practical statist ...

Had to look that up - my political science is very rusty - and truth be told I have little (if any) interest in Pol Sci.

In political science, statism is the belief that the state should control either economic or social policy, or both, to some degree.

... doesn't mean I can't have concerns about state powers though.

I'd be far more concerned if there were changes to state powers such that one no longer had a right to defend oneself against criminal accusations.

Getting a fine because one doesn't clean off ones sidewalk in a reasonable time isn't exactly what I'd consider any unreasonable state power or abuse of reasonable state power. After all - remember that your neighbors have the same responsibility to keep their walks clear for you (whether or not you use them) as you do for your neighbors.

Everyone should be concerned with any far-reaching state powers that are either unreasonable because they serve no valid purpose of society or are abused beyond what the original drafters of said power intended.

[Wake Up! Productions]

The whole point of my post was somewhat tongue in cheek. I have no desire to opt out of anything. From my reading of Q I realize that one of the biggest mistakes freeman make is confusing what is with what they feel should be.

WUP, I clean my sidewalks, driveway and volunteer plenty of time in my community so relax about thinking you know anything about me.

I was trying to bring a question of societal obligations to the table without talking in a theoretical or philosophical manner. I wanted to understand better the history and legalities of private vs. public property rights and obligations. I believe that most of responses I got understood this.

As I said in my first post I am a bit of a libertarian at heart but in reality I'm fully engaged in our society. I do not believe I am my brothers keeper nor do I believe the state should have the ability to control private property or expect services to be rendered by citizens without compensation. That being said I don't believe for a second that the state does not have that power. They need that ability for our society to function and everybody to get along. I'm grateful everyday that I live in such a free and fair society. Being a practical statist doesn't mean I can't have concerns about state powers though. I hope this clears up where I was actually coming from.

To be honest, from your posts, I can't tell one way or the other if you are speaking sarcastically or meaningfully.

Your posts do rub off (right from the start) as a means to find a LEGAL REMEDY to a problem that YOU CREATED and is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

You claim that you know what the RIGHT thing to do is, yet then you post that you may block the public's RIGHT to access the sidewalk.

There is something totally OFF about you. After 5 years of researching "freeman" CRAP, I have a pretty good BS detector.