Chrisy Morris - Parking Tickets and Bailiffs.

[Fearnchase]

Yes, by law a residential customer can't be disconnected from the supply for non-payment of a bill.

When you assert something about the law, please provide a link to it.

Thanks.

He is right, the labour government banned the ability to disconnect domestic water supplies, end of the 1990's

[littleFred]

I'm not questioning if he is right. But when someone posts "By law, XYZ" I'm sure they can tell us by which law.

[Forsyth]

I'm not questioning if he is right. But when someone posts "By law, XYZ" I'm sure they can tell us by which law.

I agree, but I also agree that it can be painful to look up and sometimes it's worth just getting the hint that the legislation exists so other people can validate or challenge. At least here challenges are as valid as claims without sources are elsewhere.

In this case, the legislation would appear to be the Water Industry Act 1999. What that says is:

1 Disconnection for non-payment of charges.

(1) After subsection (1) of section 61 of the M1Water Industry Act 1991 (disconnection for non-payment of charges) there is inserted—

“(1A) The power conferred by subsection (1) above is not exercisable in relation to any premises specified in Schedule 4A to this Act.”

(2) After Schedule 4 to the Water Industry Act 1991 there is inserted, as Schedule 4A, the Schedule set out in Schedule 1 to this Act.

Fortunately, there is also an explanatory note:

English and Welsh Provisions
Disconnection

7.Until now, if consumers did not pay their water and sewerage bills, water companies had the power to disconnect the supply. Water companies also argued that they were not prohibited from restricting the amount of water available for a consumer’s use if they did not pay their bill. The Act removes the power to disconnect water supply for non-payment, or to limit the supply with the intention of enforcing payment, from a list of different premises. These premises are private dwelling houses, caravans, houseboats, houses in multiple occupation and sheltered accommodation (where these are someone’s main home) and children’s homes, residential care homes, prisons and detention centres, schools, premises used for children’s daycare, institutions of further and higher education, hospitals, nursing homes, GPs’ and dentists’ surgeries (including surgeries set up as primary care pilot schemes) and premises occupied by the emergency services.

[littleFred]

Thanks. Unpaid bills can't result in disconnections from "Any dwelling which is occupied by a person as his only or principal home."

Some GOOFies try to pretend they don't live at home (to get out of Council Tax), or even that they don't "occupy" anywhere because they are not in the army.

[grixit]

I've also seen the argument that, since government owned buildings used to house certain officials are called "residences", that is the only meaning of the term and so private homes are not covered by any laws that use it.

[Firthy2002]

Yes, by law a residential customer can't be disconnected from the supply for non-payment of a bill.

When you assert something about the law, please provide a link to it.

Thanks.

At the time I was unable to find which piece of legislation mandated this particular prohibition, only sources that claimed the action to be unlawful.

[Jeffrey]

I think that stood out to us as weird because it's not that way in the states. Your primary residence can have it's water and lights cut off for non-payment, just look at the recent thing in the news about Detroit shutting off water.

[AndyPandy]

I think that stood out to us as weird because it's not that way in the states. Your primary residence can have it's water and lights cut off for non-payment, just look at the recent thing in the news about Detroit shutting off water.

In the UK they can disconnect your gas & electric for non payment but are more likely to apply to court to fit a pre payment meter, but definitely can't disconnect a domestic premises.

They can disconnect the water supply for a business but not if there's anyone living on the premises.

[Pox]

I think that stood out to us as weird because it's not that way in the states. Your primary residence can have it's water and lights cut off for non-payment, just look at the recent thing in the news about Detroit shutting off water.

So if someone doesn't pay for the 'lights' (or any form of electricity/gas usage) what happens to them?

I did briefly look at the Detroit situation regarding water cut offs after your post but what happened in the end? Was it turned back on again for those that couldn't/wouldn't pay?

[morrand]

So if someone doesn't pay for the 'lights' (or any form of electricity/gas usage) what happens to them?

They get shut off until the bill is paid. Usually, anyway; the rules vary from state to state, and often vary between corporate utilities, cooperatives, and municipals. In some places the meter can be fixed to severely limit the usage instead. In others, the utility can't cut off at all during the heating or cooling season, or sometimes both. Historically, a cut meant sending a technician out to shut off the meter (if electric) or lock off the main valve (if gas), and since that cost money, the utility often would let a late bill slide for quite a while before acting, local rules aside. Many of the smart electric meters now have a switch built in, though, so if you're behind on the bill, it's just a couple of keystrokes in Central to cut off service.

Prepaid meters are not at all common in the States, as far as I know. The last prepaid electric meter I saw was in a museum case, and took quarters in payment. It was a product of the early 1930s, if that's an indication for you. There's been talk of introducing prepaid service through the smart meters, but I don't think anyone's doing it.

For what it's worth, the electricity meters used in the US are installed quite differently from those I've seen in the UK. The ones used locally just plug into a socket, usually on the outside wall, so in theory cutting off power is as simple as pulling the meter out. (Bad dogs and shotguns complicate the operation in practice.) The UK ones I've seen are generally indoors and wired in more firmly, so I suspect a cut is a much more significant production.

[notorial dissent]

Just as a point of reference, our public utilities, gas, electric, land line, and sometimes water are almost universally regulated as public utilities by the states, usually through something generally titled Public Utilities Commission, that is in theory supposed to act as a check on them. Since ALL of them use public access to carry their product they are subject to local control and to a degree local legislation. They set the rates, tarriffs, that the utilities can charge, by a very strict and convoluted formula of cost to guaranteed profit, and establish conditions under which they can operate, for instance shit off notices can be appealed to the commissions and are often upheld, particularly for medical reasons. But people can and do get shut off for non-payment. If after a shut off you want service you get to pay, usually, a hefty deposit to get it back.

[Forsyth]

Prepaid meters are not at all common in the States, as far as I know. The last prepaid electric meter I saw was in a museum case, and took quarters in payment. It was a product of the early 1930s, if that's an indication for you. There's been talk of introducing prepaid service through the smart meters, but I don't think anyone's doing it.

Those used to exist in the UK though I can't remember ever seeing one. The standard joke over here when something fails is "Has anyone got 50p for the meter?", so I assume at some point post decimalisation they used to take 50p's. I'm pretty certain they didn't take quarters, anyway :-)

For what it's worth, the electricity meters used in the US are installed quite differently from those I've seen in the UK. The ones used locally just plug into a socket, usually on the outside wall, so in theory cutting off power is as simple as pulling the meter out. (Bad dogs and shotguns complicate the operation in practice.) The UK ones I've seen are generally indoors and wired in more firmly, so I suspect a cut is a much more significant production.

The modern (last couple of decades?) standard is for meters to be fitted externally (in plastic boxes which usually fall apart, but the meters seem to be reasonably weatherproof), but they would appear to be wired in and not socketed. I've not noticed any concerted attempt to alter older installations to the new practice - I think the idea is that smart meters will make it all irrelevant.

As far as I'm aware none of the pre-pay meters today take cash, instead they use an electronic 'key' or card which needs to be 'charged' with money, typically by taking it to a local shop with a terminal of some sort (which is used for many things as well as meter pre-payment) and then bringing it back and plugging it into the meter.

Pre-payment meters are largely hated due to the fact that the tariff includes an uplift to pay off any existing debt - you don't get power unless you both pay for what you're using now and you are paying towards your old debt as well.

One problem for people who have been switched to a pre-payment meter is that the basic tariff is higher than the standard rate to cover the costs of operating the pre-payment system, even after any debt is paid off. As they are usually people who are struggling financially anyway this can contribute to a debt spiral where it is difficult to get out of debt because past problems make day-to-day living more expensive.

[notorial dissent]

Modern US meters are literally a plug and play item, there are two sets of knife slots in the meter for the two incoming (110v)power lines and the meter literally push plugs in to them, then a watertight and sealed cover goes over that. They are very easy to change out or disconnect, the last time they changed mine wehn we went to the new ones, it took them longer to get the seal off and the case opened than it did to change the meter, which was literally pull out the old one and push in the new one.

[FatGambit]

One problem for people who have been switched to a pre-payment meter is that the basic tariff is higher than the standard rate to cover the costs of operating the pre-payment system, even after any debt is paid off. As they are usually people who are struggling financially anyway this can contribute to a debt spiral where it is difficult to get out of debt because past problems make day-to-day living more expensive.

To true but if you are not forced into prepayment by the supplier it is possible to find suppliers who don't charge more for pp, we have one and pay no more than my dad who is on EDF's best direct debit tariff, we don't have a standing charge either which automatically reduces our bill by £180pa.

[Forsyth]

To true but if you are not forced into prepayment by the supplier it is possible to find suppliers who don't charge more for pp, we have one and pay no more than my dad who is on EDF's best direct debit tariff, we don't have a standing charge either which automatically reduces our bill by £180pa.

That's good to hear. I know the industry was under pressure a few years ago to absorb the costs of pre-payment meters into their general operations, but I wasn't aware that this had actually achieved anything.

[Skeleton]

Those used to exist in the UK though I can't remember ever seeing one. The standard joke over here when something fails is "Has anyone got 50p for the meter?", so I assume at some point post decimalisation they used to take 50p's. I'm pretty certain they didn't take quarters, anyway

The 50p joke came from the late 70s / early 80's when Radio Rentals and the like were on the go. A lot of people back then including my Mother in law would rent a TV and have to feed it 50s to keep it on. Nothing worse than watching your favourite soap and the damn thing switching off half way through. I vividly remember my dad in that house scratching around the sofa, cushions flying everywhere looking for a 50p during a football game. Obviously prior to the UK switching over old money was used. Half a crown i remember was the coin of choice.

[FatGambit]

To true but if you are not forced into prepayment by the supplier it is possible to find suppliers who don't charge more for pp, we have one and pay no more than my dad who is on EDF's best direct debit tariff, we don't have a standing charge either which automatically reduces our bill by £180pa.

That's good to hear. I know the industry was under pressure a few years ago to absorb the costs of pre-payment meters into their general operations, but I wasn't aware that this had actually achieved anything.

I think its only one or two that have done it voluntarily, the big boys still insist on charging more for prepayment, it always made me laugh when they used to come round and try to get us to change and I'd say we pay 12p per kilowatt, what can you do, and the guy would fluster around, make a few calls and come back with 11.9p, then I'd say our standing charge is 0p, what's yours? Their face would drop as they muttered 29p and walked away.

[Firthy2002]

BREAKING NEWS: Fuckwit expresses surprise after being transferred to dialtone for making threats.

[letissier14]

Talk about wasting the time of the police

Phoning up on behalf of a woman (apparently), but he wont give any details so that the police can help!

I hope the police watch this video and do him for wasting their time. He even gives the police a false name, Just another egotistical youtube wannabe, what an utter FOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://youtu.be/eTShX44lF9A

[#six]

Talk about wasting the time of the police

Phoning up on behalf of a woman (apparently), but he wont give any details so that the police can help!

I hope the police watch this video and do him for wasting their time. He even gives the police a false name, Just another egotistical youtube wannabe, what an utter FOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://youtu.be/eTShX44lF9A

I thought 0345 numbers were now included in all mobile plans.