THE HISTORY OF THE ORGANIZED PSEUDOLEGAL COMMERCIAL ARGUMENT PHENOMENON IN CANADA

[nebuer]

This is an interesting article - it expands heavily on Rooke's work.

http://www.albertalawreview.com/index.p ... ew/422/418

Intriguingly he praises David-Kevin:Lindsay as "usually pragmatic and well-informed"...?

[Burnaby49]

This is an interesting article - it expands heavily on Rooke's work.

http://www.albertalawreview.com/index.p ... ew/422/418

Intriguingly he praises David-Kevin:Lindsay as "usually pragmatic and well-informed"...?

I've already posted on it here;

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10492&start=1960#p231331

While Lindsay has deluded beliefs he is very competent at self-representation in court cases. The grunt-work of filling out the proper forms, filing on time, following court protocol, things like that. He knows jurisprudence and presents a case well notwithstanding that he always loses. After watching the shambles of other freemen representing themselves in court I respect his abilities in that area too.

[nebuer]

Drat - missed that.

I think there is a natural contradiction in being pragmatic yet delusional, which is kind of the problem with giving Lindsay that kind of praise.

[kunta:kinte]

I was one of the first 30 members of freemanITOBA. The linked history is incorrect; Dean Clifford (Known as "theSovereign" on both freemanITOBA and stormfront) joined the site a good 3-4 months after the local "Law discussion group" started the site. With him came a flood of youtubers attempting to use his ideas without any legal understanding, and the site collapsed under the weight of it's own infighting and inability to moderate.

The discussion group held meetings on thursday nights at one of the 3 founders' apartments. the founders were all heavily into the UFO/conspiracy culture (and had founded stoplying.ca beforehand). Eventually, Patrick-Karl: Haag, head of the World Freeman Society of Canada (and one of the 3 people with access to the WFS's bank accounts - The other two living in New Zealand) started attending the meetings, and slowly/sociopathically (is that an adverb?) took over much of the ideology and meeting organization. When the meetings moved to the Toad In The Hole in December 2010, two of the three founders stopped attending, and it became mostly WFS-run/organized. Those two founders then created the freemanitoba.com domain, and the discussion group members joined. When one of the know-it-alls got them kicked out of the Toad, they moved to the Park Theatre down the road. They lasted there until about the end of August 2011, when the managers got tired of them not buying anything. By this time, none of the founders were still attending the meetings.

Dean Clifford visited the discussion group only once in May 2011, bringing some of his paperwork for us to look at. He joined freemanITOBA shortly afterwards, and announced his six wednesday-night classes exclusively on the site. I attended all six (and in fact have original copies of the unedited classes, including the off-hand racist jokes made at the first two, and Patrick Haag interrupting to give the "official" WFS position on statements made by him), and sat quietly while he explained misinformation to the 20 or so people crowded into a small hot office just off Watt Street in Elmwood (Winnipeg), behind which was one of Mr. Clifford's (notoriously bug-infested) grow ops. If you had Pineapple Chunk in Winnipeg, it likely came from his grows. half of the first class was filled with white supremacists, who refused to speak or acknowledge everyone that was a "mud blood" or otherwise not white.

A rough second-camera feed of the first class was edited by Paul Fiola, and Patrick Haag uploaded it to the freemanITOBA Youtube channel. About 2 days later, freemanitoba.com went from less than 50 members to more than 400. All these new members completely destroyed the signal:noise ratio on the site, and the one technical cofounder, Neal, did nothing to help moderate the flood, as he was a pay-to-play kind of guy (and nobody was paying). By the end of the site, there were over 5,000 members (including many Winnipeg Police Officers), 100 posts a day, and at least 4 arrests of members attempting to use Mr. Clifford's "lessons". One man, in Alberta, lost his house when his electricity was turned off, and his kids were taken by CFS (minutes later) due to living in a house with no electricity.

Once the flood of new members joined the site, Mr. Clifford stopped posting. He would only make posts the day before a class was scheduled, to tell us whether or not to go to his office. One time, that class did not happen, and an impromptu meeting happened outside the locked office doors, while undercover police officers circled the block repeatedly watching us. Every new member of the site joined to talk to theSovereign, and none did. The site died officially due to non-payment of domain renewal fees. Shortly thereafter, Patrick Haag registered freemanitoba.ca so that those attempting to keep the site alive could not do so. Mr. Clifford is widely considered a freeman (a title he does not like or accept), which makes the fact that the World Freeman Society actively attempted to distance themselves from/sabotage him all the more interesting.

Eventually, Dean started his own website (deanclifford.info), and the short summary of that debacle was infighting between paid members and the Australian man in charge of administrating the site/twitter/youtube/paypal accounts. All the money was eventually taken/controlled by the admin. Clifford never saw a dime of the tens of thousands he received in donations, all because he trusted someone else to be the tech guy.

[arayder]

The discussion group held meetings on thursday nights at one of the 3 founders' apartments. . . .Eventually, Patrick-Karl: Haag, head of the World Freeman Society of Canada. . .started attending the meetings, and slowly/sociopathically. . .took over much of the ideology and meeting organization. . . .

. . .Dean Clifford visited the discussion group only once in May 2011, bringing some of his paperwork for us to look at. He joined freemanITOBA shortly afterwards, and announced his six wednesday-night classes exclusively on the site. I attended all six (and in fact have original copies of the unedited classes, including the off-hand racist jokes made at the first two, and Patrick Haag interrupting to give the "official" WFS position on statements made by him), and sat quietly while he explained misinformation to the 20 or so people crowded into a small hot office. . . .

Welcome to the forum, kunta:knit. I hope you don't mind me editing down your comments above.

I did so because I hoped to get your comments on the culture in the World Freeman Society (WFS), especially in the early 2000's.

I have long suspected that there is a strong element of racism and anti-semitism among many in the World Freeman Society and wanted to get your comments on my suspicions, if you don't mind. We have reported here and at the old Randi forum (now the JREF forum) regarding the thinly vieled anti-semitic posts that frequent the WFS Facebook page and website.

Welcome again.

[kunta:kinte]

Welcome to the forum, kunta:knit. I hope you don't mind me editing down your comments above.

I did so because I hoped to get your comments on the culture in the World Freeman Society (WFS), especially in the early 2000's.

I have long suspected that there is a strong element of racism and anti-semitism among many in the World Freeman Society and wanted to get your comments on my suspicions, if you don't mind. We have reported here and at the old Randi forum (now the JREF forum) regarding the thinly vieled anti-semitic posts that frequent the WFS Facebook page and website.

Welcome again.

Thanks for the welcome.

WFS was startlingly diverse. There are/were a lot of card-carrying WFS members that were minorities. I met a handful of black people, a non-insignificant number of natives, a near-majority of Metis, as well as a bunch of 2nd-generation immigrants. Racism, as applied to individuals, was extraordinarily rare. There were even a few lesbian furries that became members. Patrick-Karl: Haag is Metis, though the other two WFS founders (Peter: Valentine and Alex) were white Kiwis. (Did you know that Rob Menard did not get any WFS money, even for his videos that they sold?)

It's hard to describe the cognitive dissonance I witnessed. Much like the Alex Jones/godlikeproductions/David Icke crowd (of which WFS overlapped greatly), there was a deep distrust of Jews. Individually, Jews were just people. When organized, they became the overseers lurking in the shadows that were collectively feared. If you asked them if Jews were bad people, they'd invariably say no. If you asked them who ruled the world and made it the totalitarian state it was, they would almost always say Jews. They loved lox and bagles (if not gefelte), talked highly of Krav Maga, but could go on for hours about how Israel was the antichrist. It wouldn't be a stretch to call them anti-zionist, but anti-semitic is oddly inaccurate. I never heard racial epithets, with the exception of the portuguese members calling themselves "porkchops".

Now, Dean is a different story.

My ex-wife flat-out asked him if he was a white supremecist, and his answer was, to paraphrase, "I'm not a white supremacist, I follow a faction of Jehovah's Witness".

Post-freemanITOBA, Dean's supporters were widely varied. Nobody knew of his white-supremacist viewpoints/history, and it was never made public, outside of some slander by a few internet radio personalities and the occasional facebook post.

During Dean's previous arrest, a (black) man named Martin, who filed a habeas motion on Dean's behalf (and succeeded!), stayed at my place during the hearing, because they couldn't find anyone close to Dean willing to take the guy in. I estimate there were at least 10-20 people in his network that would've/should've been/probably were asked before me. He was an amazing guy, and a really stand-up dude I'd want backing me up.

Dean likely hung out with the white-power guys in jail for protection, but he talked a lot about aboriginal standing in court, particularly how "ab-original" should just be shortened to "original", and repeated lots of Meredith Quinn's teachings verbatim (though I don't know if he knew they came from a native "two-spirit" transgender originally).

About 20 minutes after he shot his first video, Dean explained (in the same office/with the same whiteboard) that his "Director/Trustee/Beneficiary" triangle was the public triangle. Then he explained the private side was similar, and drew an upside-down triangle, making the Star of David out of the two triangles. He then noted that this was ingrained in the jewish belief system.

Dean has an irrational hatred for Moorish law and it's practitioners, even though most of the teachings were very similar. This, along with the real reason he lost his finger, are two questions I probably won't get to explore with him, I bet.

Many of his followers, at least locally in winnipeg, take a strong "But What About The Good Things Hitler Did?/Hitler Didn't Hate Blacks" stance, and will argue for hours about the Nazis being given a bad rap. I mean, the Volkswagen is a pretty good car, so I try to avoid those arguments.

So, particularly when it comes to anti-semitism, it's hard to give a yes or no answer. It's closer to "Kinda, but only in the context of their political/conspiratorial beliefs".

[Dr. Caligari]

Welcome to Quatloos, kunta. Grog is served in the fo'c'sle at 8 bells.