Are there any nice tax protesters?

[Famspear]

I have been thinking about this question: Are there any nice tax protesters?

I have been dealing with tax protester intensively (but pseudonymously) on the internet for nearly two years. My interaction with tax protesters is that they are almost uniformly nasty people.

I know that's a vague statement.

I am just wondering what others' thoughts might be on this topic.

I cannot recall running across a tax protester who didn't respond to calm, reasoned analysis pretty much like a 14 year spoiled brat responds to a parent who is patiently trying to teach his or her youngster. In fact, the responses have led me to suspect that many tax protesters are indeed engaged in a transference (an inappropriate repetition, in the present, of some aspect of a relationship with that child's mother or father, wherein the protester substitutes me, or the government, or the tax law, for the parent).

The ones with which I have dealt seem to be constitutionally incapable of admitting their mistakes or understanding what is (in nearly all cases) the depths of incompetence they bring to bear on the subject of the law. They also seem to hold a deep, unnatural hatred for and resentment of Authority or Authority Figures.

Maybe it's just me?

[Demosthenes]

FWIW, many tps are nicer in person. They're comfortable (and braver) online, even when they're posting under a real name.

[The Operative]

I have never met a TP in person, so I can't comment on what they are like face-to-face. The TPs I have interacted with online were, for the most part, absolutely unable to admit they are wrong. The discussion can start out civil enough, but as soon as I refute some of their key arguments, the attacks begin.

The inability to admit to being wrong is a sign of a personality disorder. Some may not be able to handle the feelings of anxiety produced from self-doubt. The elaborate explanations, and the incessant need to convince others of the "rightness" of their "tax honesty" arguments is a sign of denial. The people who are convinced by the arguments put forth by the tax protester only help to reinforce the personality disorder.

[Demosthenes]

And some tps are just generally nice guys. I'd put Tally Eddings in that category. I've communicated with Tally for several years and he has always been a perfect gentleman despite numerous disappointments in his movement, many of them caused by me.

[Nikki]

You are dealing with people who have decided on an answer, assembled (carefully sorted and culled) information to support it, and (most importantly) are basing a significant portion of their world-view on this fragile house of cards.

You are broadcasting Western television to North Korea. You are opening up the Internet in China. You are showing satellite pictures to a flat-earther.

What else would you expect other than a vigorous, if not violent, struggle to maintain the facade.

You are showing them, in a deeply-held belief, to be at least wrong, if not a gullible fool.

Just as with religion, and its accompanying faith, when you knock out the underinnings, you are left with a person mentally adrift without anchor in a violent storm.

YOU did this to them. YOU destroyed everything they believe in. It is your fault (irrespective of their past self-delusion) and you have to pay some form of penalty for what you did.

Remember, you are dealing with a mentality that is based on axioms like

Are you going to demand and "enjoy" "trial by jury," or be hornswaggled by a bastard Tory Loyalist BAR Association Attorney vested as a religious cleric sitting six feet above everyone else and plying his/her TRADE at the edges of the room, or compelled by force of arms of mercenary corporate municipal troops, into acquiescing to a "jury trial?"

Remember: The government is a corporation. The Zionists / Illuminati / Vatican control everything. The flag has a fringe on it. The IRS is a private collection firm for the IMF. The FED is a private wing of the Rothschilds. Yadda, yadda, tadda.

These people are addicted to the koolaide. You have to expect severe withdrawal symptoms when you cut off, or even threaten, their supply.

[Nikki]

Me? I have to go enjoy my jacuzzi, while enjoying a ber and watching football.....can Ed, Elaine, Reno, Danny, et al, say the same. I think not.

Why not splurge and have a whole beer?

[gottago]

While I can only speak for myself, I do not consider myself to be an evil, nasty or dysfunctional person. I have no problems with authority, many friends, a profession that I enjoyed and consider myself responsible. Two key things occurred in my life that led me unexpectedly into this nightmare. One, I was recruited for and accepted a job in Las Vegas, Nevada 12 years ago. If I had not done this I guarantee that I would not be where I am today. Two, my spouse became acquainted with someone there that extolled the virtues of Irwin Schiff and his bullshit and my spouse attended a seminar held by him. My husband, over my protests, became convinced that Irwin Schiff was correct in his "theories" and we began filing tax returns according to his methods.

Prior to that time, we lived perfectly normal and average lives. We had a nice home, money in the bank, perfect credit and pretty much lived as we wanted. We had no history of problems with the IRS or any government agency. We married in 1984, I returned to college in the late 80's and received my master's degree in nursing and became a nurse practitioner in 1990 after working 8 years as an RN in a children's hospital. My spouse worked in industrial sales as a regional manager for 12 years and traveled quite a bit.

For the first few years, everything happened exactly as Irwin stated it would. We would receive certain letters and respond to them using his recommendations and basically nothing happened. I can honestly say that even though it made me uneasy I came to the conclusion that "Irwin must be right"--my husband handled all of the correspondence and other than signing forms and letters I had no involvement beyond that.

Collections really commenced after about 5 years of Schiff returns, when we returned to Texas. They have continued for the past 2 years and have resulted in the loss of my savings, retirement accounts and job. The highlight of my life as a tax protestor was spending a week in a county jail cell for civil contempt of court for not cooperating with a summons. We submitted an offer in compromise 14 months ago and are awaiting that determination.

The only things left to take are my house (some equity but not enough to even begin to pay what they have determined we owe) and our cars (both paid for but older--1996 and 1999). I now have substantial credit card debt and no job prospects. Spouse works as a straight commission salesperson locally and we are trying to survive at the present time.

I will freely admit to anyone that the biggest mistake I have made in my life was allowing myself to be talked into following the methods of Irwin Schiff. I will never be able to pay the liability in my lifetime. I have never and would never encourage anyone to become a tax protestor. In my case, the cost has been high and the benefits non-existent.

[Demosthenes]

Gottago, has your husband come to the same realization as you?

[ErsatzAnatchist]

Having (a number of years ago) dealt with both Ed and Elaine Brown, they were very different from each other. Ed was a narcissistic ass. A pompous blow-hard. Elaine seemed much milder and more inclined to be forgiving. She was capable of seeing things from the perspective of another person.

I remember how Ed ranted about the gold fringe on the flag and how we should bring back debtor's prison. I think the last few years of living with Ed forced her to "accept" that Ed was right and to drink the Kool-Aid, for her own sanity. I think Cognitive Dissonance is the phrase psychologists use. I wonder if, one day, Elaine will come to the same realization that Gottago has come to? If not, then she has gone too far down the path. . .

Perhaps people like Elaine and Gottago do not qualify as true tax protesters, but are instead just another category of victim?

[Imalawman]

And some tps are just generally nice guys.

This is true. I've met many TPs over the years. While the majority were arrogant and gruff, many were very nice people. In fact, one is a long time family friend. We still disagree strongly and I hate what the TP world has done to his life and family, but he's a nice guy generally.

I always wanted to meet Tupper Saussy. I thought he'd be a fascinating man to interact with. I have no idea whether he was a nice man or not, but anyone who can play Bach's goldberg variations, can't be too bad a person.

Also, Demo is right (shock!) in that they are nicer in person (generally). I will receive tons of vicious, threatening letters and filings, but in the court room, they generally adopt a calm, quiet demeanor. (some, mind you are plain out rude and loud)

My rule of thumb is that the more involved in the TP world, the more arrogant and rude they become. (this is not always the case, but it works as a general rule)

[Demosthenes]

Tupper was always very kind and considerate in my email correspondence with him.

[Famspear]

Dear gottago: I know that your remarks, and the descriptions of the experiences of others as noted above in this thread, clearly demonstrate that my personal experiences are not completely representative or descriptive of all tax protesters. I wish you and your family the best.

[LPC]

FWIW, many tps are nicer in person.

I've only had two off-line encounters with tax deniers, to the best of my recollection.

One was a telephone call from someone I considered to be a complete maniac. It was unnerving to hear him speak gently, calmly, and politely.

The other was a radio interview with Bill Benson and me. Benson was the stereotypical blowhard, interrupting and speaking loudly.

[LPC]

I remember how Ed ranted about the gold fringe on the flag and how we should bring back debtor's prison.

Unexpected irony there.

[buck09]

I have been thinking about this question: Are there any nice tax protesters?

I have been dealing with tax protester intensively (but pseudonymously) on the internet for nearly two years. My interaction with tax protesters is that they are almost uniformly nasty people.

As other people have already pointed out, there are nice tax protestors. My view of this world actually is the near opposite of yours. I've interacted with people who share the TP/paytriot "worldview" long before I bothered to see what they were ranting and raving about on the Internet. I don't bother engaging them online much, mainly because I spend far too much personal time working on people in the real world.

Overall, I think the level of "niceness" decreases with the amount of time and effort they put into the movement. From what I've observed, it stems from the fact that they have attained this secret wisdom that gives them an edge over everyone else. However, after they start to enocunter resistance and outright failure whenever delusion meets reality, people tend to become more bitter about being a "victim" in the hands of "them".

That being said, some people are complete d*cks regardless of what they believe about anything.

Interestingly enough, one more the kindest, give-you-the-shirt-off-his-back people I've ever met bought into nearly every conspiracy theory out there.

[gottago]

Gottago, has your husband come to the same realization as you?

He has come to the realization that our lives have been destroyed as a direct result of his actions and beliefs based on the "teachings" and pontifications of Schiff and others. He is currently having all appropriate withholding and working with me toward the resolution of the situation. He is not crazy, delusional or dysfunctional (really) and truly regrets ever involving us in this.

If this situation is ever resolved and we are able to return to "normal" life, I have made it clear to him that if he ever chooses to return to being a "tax protestor" it will only occur after we are divorced and I no longer have any responsibility for his actions. I do not think he will ever become involved in the tax protestor ranks again. I know that I never will.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Overall, I think the level of "niceness" decreases with the amount of time and effort they put into the movement.

My experience is the degree of niceness has a direct relationship to their dependence on their scheme for their income. The more desperate they are or the bigger the stakes, the less civil they can become.

And it's not just TP's. For every TP there are probably a dozen or more mortgage fraudsters or foreclosure-rescue scammers out there. Obviously, the stakes can be high, financially at least.

Everyone of them I've had the discomfort to have come in contact with was seemingly quite nice, very smooth and even professional right up until someone started asking questions that they couldn't or wouldn't answer. If it started to expose what they were up to you'd begin to see variations of the jaw clenching, nostril flaring, red face and sweaty palms symptoms of embarrassment and anger.

I met only one stone-cold perpetrator that didn't seem to have a pulse, let alone any concern for what had just happened to him. Pure ice-water in the veins demeanor even when he was outed as a previously-convicted scammer.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Most tax protestors I've dealt with were primarily over the Internet and none of them were what I'd consider nice.

However, I'm sure that in person they can be charming.

[Weathervane]

Gottago, has your husband come to the same realization as you?

He has come to the realization that our lives have been destroyed as a direct result of his actions and beliefs based on the "teachings" and pontifications of Schiff and others. He is currently having all appropriate withholding and working with me toward the resolution of the situation. He is not crazy, delusional or dysfunctional (really) and truly regrets ever involving us in this.

If this situation is ever resolved and we are able to return to "normal" life, I have made it clear to him that if he ever chooses to return to being a "tax protestor" it will only occur after we are divorced and I no longer have any responsibility for his actions. I do not think he will ever become involved in the tax protestor ranks again. I know that I never will.

Hey Gottago,
As a former active TP who's life was wrecked by buying in to the dellusional ravings of lunatics like Irwin Schiff, I want to tell you and your husband that all is not lost.

You and/or your husband made some errors in judgement for which you are paying a price, true, but understand that these were not fatal errors, and that in time you will recover, and that life still holds many many many wonderful blessings that you have no idea still await you.

I wound up with a felony conviction as well as a mountain of seemingly un-payable back taxes and interest that negatively affected each and every aspect of my life. The depression and self-punishment was the worst of it though.

But the more I forced myself to be thankful for each and every day, for my wife, for my children, for the air I breathe and for my friends (especially the one's here like Demo, AFTP, LCP and Prof, Grixit and Elfninosmom) all helped me to realize that your life is not over until you say it is.

One thing I would advise against, and that is pushing yourselves too hard to overcompensate for the debts. And also, you have to find it in you...here's the hard part, and something I still struggle with...is to put the hate and anger behind you.

And eventually...oh, it might take a while...but eventually one day you'll wake up and say "WE MADE IT!!!"

[Prof]

TG, thanks for the complement, but you should be complementing yourself -- not us "observers." You did it -- and so will gottago and lots of others.