What they found at the Brown house

[Famspear]

Does anyone remember what Miller specifically said about what Ed specifically said about the "Ed killing Elaine thing," exactly?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[ErsatzAnatchist]

I'm pretty sure that Famspear has dibs on the fighter jet if it has the Constitution Ranger decal on the door.

I think you mean ErsatzAnatchist. I recall that he wanted just five minutes alone with the Constipational Ranger door.

And what a Magical five minutes they would be.

I saw the constitutional rangers badges listed in the inventory. I wonder what is going to happen to all of that loot. Any chance that the IRS will auction it off?

I have my eyes on the 60,000 rounds of ammo. [Drool]

[Quixote]

I'm pretty sure that Famspear has dibs on the fighter jet if it has the Constitution Ranger decal on the door.

I think you mean ErsatzAnatchist. I recall that he wanted just five minutes alone with the Constipational Ranger door.

And what a Magical five minutes they would be.

I saw the constitutional rangers badges listed in the inventory. I wonder what is going to happen to all of that loot. Any chance that the IRS will auction it off?

I have my eyes on the 60,000 rounds of ammo. [Drool]

I was wondering the same thing. Some of the loot is evidence, including those 60,000 rounds. Once the trials are over, will they be sold, destroyed or filed away?

[The Observer]

I think you mean ErsatzAnatchist. I recall that he wanted just five minutes alone with the Constipational Ranger door.

And what a Magical five minutes they would be.

I saw the constitutional rangers badges listed in the inventory. I wonder what is going to happen to all of that loot. Any chance that the IRS will auction it off?

I have my eyes on the 60,000 rounds of ammo. [Drool]

I was wondering the same thing. Some of the loot is evidence, including those 60,000 rounds. Once the trials are over, will they be sold, destroyed or filed away?

I doubt that the IRS would take any steps to seize the ammunition as an asset, mainly due to the hazards of moving and storing such inventory. Also the problem of selling ammunition in large quantities would probably put some of the buyers in potential violations of local, state or federal law. I believe the Internal Revenue Manual had policies regarding seizures where alcohol and firearms were present, they were to be turned over to either local or federal agencies to dispose of.

[The Observer]

Nothing is mentioned in the IRM specifically about ammunition, but the following is about the seizure of firearms:

5.10.2.7 Firearms (10-01-2004)

(1) Firearms of substantial value may be seized if they are included as a business asset, e.g., the inventory of a sports equipment outlet, hardware store, a gunsmith, etc. Because of the sensitive nature of this type of seizure, approval by the area director is required. Prior to the seizure, the revenue officer must contact the Property Appraisal and Liquidation Specialists (PALS) to discuss the potential seizure. The PALS should contact area counsel, who will then contact the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) of the Department of Justice for assistance in selling the inventory.

Note: Rather than conducting the seizure, the revenue officer can also consider recommending a suit to foreclose the federal tax lien.

(2) Single guns or firearms that are customarily retained for personal use should not be seized unless their value is such that a suit to foreclose the Federal tax lien may be appropriately recommended. Certain arms for personal use may be exempt from seizure (IRM 5.10.1.3.3.3(2), Equity Determination - Exempt Assets).

(3) If firearms for personal use are unexpectedly encountered during a seizure, Criminal Investigation (CI) or TIGTA should be immediately contacted so they can respond to the seizure location to advise the revenue officer of the appropriate action to take and to provide protection for the revenue officer at the time these items are handed over to the taxpayer or his or her representative. These items should not be listed on Form 2433 unless they are actually being seized.

(4) If firearms are seized, the assistance of CI should be sought in making a determination as to whether the arms are contraband or subject to forfeiture under the Gun Control Act of 1968 or by virtue of state or local law. This action should be taken prior to any disposition of the seized arms. See IRM 5.10.4.5(15), Actions to Release and Return Property, for the procedures to release property when another government agency becomes involved.

(5) After the above actions have been taken, the sale of the firearms may be conducted. The PALS must outsource the sale of firearms to an ATF licensed auctioneer to ensure all firearm sale requirements are met.

Exception: Firearms that are primarily collector's items, as described in IRC 5845, may be sold by the PALS at public auction or sealed bid sale. Consult with ATF if there are any questions about whether a specific firearm meets this definition.

I would think that unless the ammunition represents a great deal of money and can be deemed to be extremely safe (not old, corroded or reloaded, identified as being commecially made by a manafacturer with a well-known reputation) the IRS may allow the Marshal's office or ATF to retain possession and dispose of it.

[Quixote]

And what a Magical five minutes they would be.

I saw the constitutional rangers badges listed in the inventory. I wonder what is going to happen to all of that loot. Any chance that the IRS will auction it off?

I have my eyes on the 60,000 rounds of ammo. [Drool]

I was wondering the same thing. Some of the loot is evidence, including those 60,000 rounds. Once the trials are over, will they be sold, destroyed or filed away?

I doubt that the IRS would take any steps to seize the ammunition as an asset, mainly due to the hazards of moving and storing such inventory. Also the problem of selling ammunition in large quantities would probably put some of the buyers in potential violations of local, state or federal law. I believe the Internal Revenue Manual had policies regarding seizures where alcohol and firearms were present, they were to be turned over to either local or federal agencies to dispose of.

There are procedures for seizure and sale of alcohol and firearms by the IRS*. (The firearms auction is outsourced to BATF to ensure firearms regs are followed.) I was wondering if the IRS could ever foreclose on the government's lien on the stuff seized as evidence.


*Interesting excerpt from IRM 5.10.2.7:

If firearms for personal use are unexpectedly encountered during a seizure, Criminal Investigation (CI) or TIGTA should be immediately contacted so they can respond to the seizure location to advise the revenue officer of the appropriate action to take and to provide protection for the revenue officer at the time these items are handed over to the taxpayer or his or her representative. These items should not be listed on Form 2433 unless they are actually being seized.

(emphasis added)

[The Observer]

There are procedures for seizure and sale of alcohol and firearms by the IRS*. (The firearms auction is outsourced to BATF to ensure firearms regs are followed.) I was wondering if the IRS could ever foreclose on the government's lien on the stuff seized as evidence.

Yes, I was aware of the section, as you can see by my preceding post. But it doesn't specifically address ammunition which is a completely different problem in terms of risk of explosion/fire and safety.

But your questions about the IRS being able to foreclose or seize any evidence that has value and is encumbered by the federal tax lien is understood. I know CI has been able to auction off vehicles and assets that were seized as part of criminal forfeiture laws, and it would be probable that some of these were originally used as evidence in securing a conviction against the taxpayer. It is possible that perhaps ATF has procedures to sell firearms and/or ammunition and to pass the proceeds to Treasury for application towards the liability. The suit to foreclose would be an interesting possibility since the IRS would be asking the court to intervene and take charge of any such sales. Would a court do so? I don't know.

*Interesting excerpt from IRM 5.10.2.7:

If firearms for personal use are unexpectedly encountered during a seizure, Criminal Investigation (CI) or TIGTA should be immediately contacted so they can respond to the seizure location to advise the revenue officer of the appropriate action to take and to provide protection for the revenue officer at the time these items are handed over to the taxpayer or his or her representative. These items should not be listed on Form 2433 unless they are actually being seized.

(emphasis added)

[/quote]

Yes, handing the gun that you had seized back to the angry taxpayer is creating too much of a tempting situation...

[Nikki]

There has been quite a lot in the news recently about domestic shortages of ammunition due to the huge demand in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some police departments are curtailing range practice to conserve ammunition.

Given this, there should be very little need to dispose of much of the ammunition outside of donating it to needy local police forces.

However, the variety of sizes will present an issue.

Since most police forces in this country have migrated to 9mm automatics, there will probably be very little call for the .22, 7.62, and .50 that Ed stocked up.

[ErsatzAnatchist]

There is nothing inherently dangerous about ammunition. It is sold at Walmart, and can be shipped UPS Ground by anyone.

To ease matters, there are two firearms auction houses in New Hampshire that routinely sell large quantities of ammunition at public sales. I am sure either one would be happy to sell these items for the .gov for their normal commission.

I also seem to recall that a New Hampshire gun store has possession of all of Ed Brown's weapons from when he was released pre-trial. I think the news article indicated 40-50 firearms. Even if most of them were eastern block military surplus, the value of the collection would probably exceed $10,000 (perhaps by a considerable amount). These are not proceeds of a crime or even evidence, so there is no reason they should not be sold.

60,000 rounds of ammunition would probably be worth at least $10-15,000.00. More if there is a lot of .223, less if there is a lot of .22 rimfire.

This stuff has real value and is easily sold. The .gov should not destroy it because it is "evil gun stuff".

[.]

The .gov should not destroy it because it is "evil gun stuff"

They sell literally tons of surplus government ammo and even rocket parts via auction, so what they'll do remains to be seen.

[ErsatzAnatchist]

The .gov should not destroy it because it is "evil gun stuff"

They sell literally tons of surplus government ammo and even rocket parts via auction, so what they'll do remains to be seen.

Unfortunately, a Clinton era executive order banned the sale of surplus ammunition to the public. Surplus ammunition must be taken apart and the components sold.

[Scoop]

I also seem to recall that a New Hampshire gun store has possession of all of Ed Brown's weapons from when he was released pre-trial. I think the news article indicated 40-50 firearms. Even if most of them were eastern block military surplus, the value of the collection would probably exceed $10,000 (perhaps by a considerable amount). These are not proceeds of a crime or even evidence, so there is no reason they should not be sold.

Not quite that many. Closer to 30, and mostly tamer stuff than what they found this time around. I have the list as a PDF and can post it if someone with more web smarts than me can tell me how.

[.]

Unfortunately, a Clinton era executive order banned the sale of surplus ammunition to the public. Surplus ammunition must be taken apart and the components sold.

Figures. Never forego an opportunity to subtract value. Close enough for government work, such as it is.

The nanny-state knows best.

[Demosthenes]

Courtesy of Scoop:

http://www.cheatingfrenzy.com/brownsguns.pdf

[ErsatzAnatchist]

Looks like the two lists are mostly the same, but I could not match them all up. I will tack it up to poor descriptions and too little time to try. Some decent stuff, some crap.

One item stands out: .50 Cal. Bolt Action Long Range Rifle w/ Scope. If that is what I think it is, It is easily worth $2,500.00. There is also a Chinese AK style rifle in there, but that is the only real military style gun in the lot (at least post WWII). Value $500 or so.

The three M1 Carbines are worth between $500-$1,000 each. A couple of 1911 style pistols and the browning high power are in the same range of values. One of the 30-30 rifles is also in that range. The rest is either crap, or too poorly described to know that it is worth. Call it about $10 grand for the lot.

[Demosthenes]

Browns' cache one of the biggest
Documents detail 20 suspected pipe bombs

By Margot Sanger-Katz
Monitor staff

October 31. 2007 7:15AM

The cache of weapons, ammunition and improvised explosive devices found at the Plainfield home of Ed and Elaine Brown compares with some of the biggest weapons busts of recent years, according to the Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives special agent who led the investigation for his department.

"It's the largest seizure of improvised explosive devices that I've ever been involved with anywhere in the country," said special agent Glenn Anderson, who led the Brown investigation for the Boston field office of the federal agency. "I've been with ATF for 21 years."

Court documents recently filed in the cases of four of the tax protesting couple's supporters itemize explosives and weapons materials found by agents during their search. The list includes more than 20 "suspected pipe bombs," nine "destructive devices," bags of high explosives found hanging in trees, smoke grenades and materials for many similar bombs, including partially constructed nail bombs. Investigators also found 20 guns, including two .50-caliber rifles, and more than 60,000 rounds of ammunition, according to court documents.

The Browns were convicted of tax-related felonies in January but evaded capture for months by holing up in their self-sufficient concrete home, entertaining guests and threatening a violent confrontation if marshals came to arrest them. Throughout the standoff, they issued calls for supplies, including military equipment and roofing nails. A small team of undercover marshals arrested the couple without incident this month by posing as supporters.

Because of the language used to describe the devices and materials found on the property, it is unclear exactly how many bombs were functional and how many were incomplete at the time of the search. In addition to the "suspected pipe bombs" and "dangerous devices," the list also describes cans of explosive materials with fuses attached that might have been operational and materials that could be used to construct dozens more pipe bombs.

Anderson and U.S. Marshal Stephen Monier, who led the investigation, said they would not comment about evidence in detail.

According to Mark Pitcavage, the director of investigative research at the Anti-Defamation League, which tracks militia and extremist groups, pipe bombs are common tools of the movement because they are relatively simple to build. They are typically made from metal pipes, filled with nails, glass or other shrapnel, packed with explosive material, and connected to a fuse. Though their structural impact on buildings is generally not significant, they can be deadly to anyone near the bomb when it explodes.

Investigators seized dozens of cans of gunpowder, drill bits, vices, fuse material, pipes and pipe fittings.

Mark Potok, the director of the intelligence project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which also tracks militia groups, described the search findings as a "pipe bomb factory."

"Clearly, the man was hard at work," he said. "These aren't merely the materials. He's drilled the ends he's drilled the nipple covers for the pipes in order to get the fuses in."

Investigators also found other explosive materials, including several bags of mixed Tannerite. Tannerite is an explosive formed by mixing two legally available chemicals. It is frequently used on shooting ranges to create dramatic explosions when shooters hit distant targets. According to the list, some mixed bags of Tannerite were found hanging from trees.

Smaller quantities of potassium nitrate were also found. The chemical, which is commonly used as fertilizer, can also be used to create powerful explosives. The device that killed 168 people in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing was made from potassium nitrate.

The Browns have a long history of involvement in the militia movement, and Ed Brown once led a local militia group. In an interview last year, Brown said that "there's no such thing as a militia any more," but he continues to be a member of the Constitution Rangers, a group devoted to holding authorities accountable for constitutional violations. The Browns' case attracted many from the militia movement, some of whom visited the couple.

[grixit]

Geesh, it's a wonder someone didn't blow their hand off making all those bombs!

[Demosthenes]

Brown supporter advises others on how to keep the Koolaid flowing:

With Ed and Elaine Brown's arrests, with the New Hampshire four's arrests, and now with Sherry Pell Jachson's guilty verdict, we all are probably feeling a tremendous sense of hoplessness.

DO NOT GIVE IN TO THIS FEELING OF DEFEAT!

Just a suggestion, take a deep breath and allow that feeling of hoplessness to wash over you. Put a timer on and sit with it for fifteen minutes, then let it go!!!!! Get up and do the next indicated thing, and have in your mind what that is so you can go right to it and get to work. One of the suggestions I give you is that you have pen, paper, envelope and stamps ready for you to write some letters to some of our innocent six, Ed, Elaine, Danny, Carino, Jason, or Bob, who are in jail at this time.

I guarantee you that the feeling of uselessness and hoplessness will disapear and you will feel new energy and ideas come through to help with their support. Believe it and you will see it!!! Have faith that this will happen and we will prevail.

[Cpt Banjo]

One of the suggestions I give you is that you have pen, paper, envelope and stamps ready for you to write some letters to some of our innocent six, Ed, Elaine, Danny, Carino, Jason, or Bob, who are in jail at this time.

We can only hope that pretty soon there'll be so many TP's in jail that the rest of the chowderheads won't be able to afford the postage for all the letters.

[Quixote]

I guarantee you that the feeling of uselessness and hoplessness will disapear and you will feel new energy and ideas come through to help with their support.

They could achieve the same effect by adjusting their medication level.