Losing Your Home, Crawford Style

[notorial dissent]

I don't know if this is referring to the first or the last of the charters issued, the article didn't say, and I didn't think to look.

[noblepa]

Nor is there a restricted super-law that says: some specific Acts (eg Magna Carta, Bill of Rights) can never be changed.

We occasionally get the same thing, here in the US. Some moron fotl (but I repeat myself) will argue that some law or government action is illegal because the authority for it is not contained in the Constitution AS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN. They argue that amendments to the Constitution can not override the original text. This, in spite of the very specific language within the document that provides for amendments and states that such changes become part of the Constitution "for all intents and purposes".

[TheNewSaint]

We occasionally get the same thing, here in the US. Some moron fotl (but I repeat myself) will argue that some law or government action is illegal because the authority for it is not contained in the Constitution AS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN. They argue that amendments to the Constitution can not override the original text. This, in spite of the very specific language within the document that provides for amendments and states that such changes become part of the Constitution "for all intents and purposes".

And, in many cases, Supreme Court rulings in which the matter in question was found to be Constitutional.

[jcolvin2]

I don't know if this is referring to the first or the last of the charters issued, the article didn't say, and I didn't think to look.

Wikipedia indicates that the 1, 9 and 29 numbering for the surviving clauses is from the 1297 statute:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

Clauses remaining in English law

Only three clauses of Magna Carta still remain on statute in England and Wales.[236] These clauses concern 1) the freedom of the English Church, 2) the "ancient liberties" of the City of London (clause 13 in the 1215 charter, clause 9 in the 1297 statute), and 3) a right to due legal process (clauses 39 and 40 in the 1215 charter, clause 29 in the 1297 statute).[236] In detail, these clauses (using the numbering system from the 1297 statute) state that:

I. FIRST, We have granted to God, and by this our present Charter have confirmed, for Us and our Heirs for ever, that the Church of England shall be free, and shall have all her whole Rights and Liberties inviolable. We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties under-written, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever.

IX. THE City of London shall have all the old Liberties and Customs which it hath been used to have. Moreover We will and grant, that all other Cities, Boroughs, Towns, and the Barons of the Five Ports, as with all other Ports, shall have all their Liberties and free Customs.

XXIX. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.[231]

[Pox]

Wikipedia indicates that the 1, 9 and 29 numbering for the surviving clauses is from the 1297 statute:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

Clauses remaining in English law

Only three clauses of Magna Carta still remain on statute in England and Wales.[236] These clauses concern 1) the freedom of the English Church, 2) the "ancient liberties" of the City of London (clause 13 in the 1215 charter, clause 9 in the 1297 statute), and 3) a right to due legal process (clauses 39 and 40 in the 1215 charter, clause 29 in the 1297 statute).[236] In detail, these clauses (using the numbering system from the 1297 statute) state that:

I. FIRST, We have granted to God, and by this our present Charter have confirmed, for Us and our Heirs for ever, that the Church of England shall be free, and shall have all her whole Rights and Liberties inviolable. We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties under-written, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever.

IX. THE City of London shall have all the old Liberties and Customs which it hath been used to have. Moreover We will and grant, that all other Cities, Boroughs, Towns, and the Barons of the Five Ports, as with all other Ports, shall have all their Liberties and free Customs.

XXIX. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.[231]

XX1X is clearly the one that is focused on in FMOTL land. Who or what defines a 'freeman'. Is it by application only?

[AndyPandy]

From history lessons, I think 12% of the population at the time were classed as 'freemen', 8% landowners / barons etc., but the vast majority of the population were classed as indentured serfs.

[rumpelstilzchen]

On 19 November Tom Crawfraud launches the Declaration of Winchester in, er, Winchester.

On Monday Tom posted on GOOFs:

I really do mean this, that this conference and declaration will go down in history

If you change "in history" to "the pan" it makes more sense.

[Hercule Parrot]

SovCits give those words magical powers.

One of the stupidest SovCit/footle idea I have come across is when they claim certain words in reality have a secret meaning and it is the secret meaning that is being used to control us without us being aware of the secret meaning. We believe the word means one thing but it really means something else. They fail to understand that if no one is aware of the secret meaning that secret meaning cannot affect us.

Oh yes - "legalese". For example, you must never say that you understand something in a court, because that's a secret code for your agreement to stand under the questioner's authority. Don't let them trick you into slavery!

They don't grasp that this can easily be tested, by the defendant asking the judge if s/he understands what they are saying. If the judge says yes, then the defendant can order them to throw out the case. If the judge obeys, the legalese meaning above is proven.

[Arthur Rubin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

Clauses remaining in English law

Only three clauses of Magna Carta still remain on statute in England and Wales.[236] These clauses concern 1) the freedom of the English Church, 2) the "ancient liberties" of the City of London (clause 13 in the 1215 charter, clause 9 in the 1297 statute), and 3) a right to due legal process (clauses 39 and 40 in the 1215 charter, clause 29 in the 1297 statute).[236] In detail, these clauses (using the numbering system from the 1297 statute) state that:

...

XXIX. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.[231]

A little off-topic, but does "Peers" mean "peers of the realm" (aka Nobles)?

That being said, there is something to be said for "outlawed" for FMOTLd. They don't think the laws apply to them, so perhaps they shouldn't.... (not entirely sarcastic)

[Bones]

XXIX. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.[231]

"Law of the land"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_land

English jurists, writing of legem terrae in reference to the Magna Carta, stated that this term embraces all laws that are in force for the time being within a jurisdiction. For example, Edward Coke, commenting upon Magna Carta, wrote in 1606: "no man be taken or imprisoned but per legem terrae, that is, by the common law, statute law, or custom of England."

Coke also emphasized, in the 1610 Case of Proclamations, that dictates of the King are excluded from the law of the land: "the law of England is divided into three parts, common law, statute law, and custom; but the King's proclamation is none of them."

They want to reply on magna carta.... let them, it just confirms that they are talking rubbish

[littleFred]

Judgement by one's peers is judgement by one's equals.

And that's what happens in criminal cases. There is either a jury or a magistrate, and these are both "peers", ie ordinary people, not lawyers.

[Pottapaug1938]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

Clauses remaining in English law

Only three clauses of Magna Carta still remain on statute in England and Wales.[236] These clauses concern 1) the freedom of the English Church, 2) the "ancient liberties" of the City of London (clause 13 in the 1215 charter, clause 9 in the 1297 statute), and 3) a right to due legal process (clauses 39 and 40 in the 1215 charter, clause 29 in the 1297 statute).[236] In detail, these clauses (using the numbering system from the 1297 statute) state that:

...

XXIX. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.[231]

A little off-topic, but does "Peers" mean "peers of the realm" (aka Nobles)?

That being said, there is something to be said for "outlawed" for FMOTLd. They don't think the laws apply to them, so perhaps they shouldn't.... (not entirely sarcastic)

It's also worthwhile to note that not all Englishmen were Freemen. Many were "villeins", who were peasants legally bound to a lord and/or a manor. "Serf" is another term for these people. Thus, the Magna Carta didn't even apply to all Englishmen.

[aesmith]

Judgement by one's peers is judgement by one's equals.

And that's what happens in criminal cases. There is either a jury or a magistrate, and these are both "peers", ie ordinary people, not lawyers.

Or a District Judge who is a lawyer.

[NYGman]

Peers is Capitalized mid-sentence, to me this usually means a defined term, and not the common meaning.

[littleFred]

Ah, the Curse of the Capitals. But that's an English Translation, made at a time when most Nouns were capitalised (cf modern German). The Latin Word was "parium" (cf "compare"), no Capital. At least, not in the Cotton MS.

[Forsyth]

A little off-topic, but does "Peers" mean "peers of the realm" (aka Nobles)?

Possibly. It meant being judged by your equals, so for commoners it was other commoners but for nobles it was other nobles. Abolished in 1948 apparently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege ... l_by_peers

[mufc1959]

The Winchester Daily Echo is strangely silent about the massive mob that descended on it yesterday to pronounce the Declaration of Winchester.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/district/winchester/

Of course, that's only to be expected, because TPTB don't want us to know about the people's uprising. We'll have to rely on whatever phonevids were taken as our only record of this historic occasion.

[exiledscouser]

There is pretty much radio silence about this momentous event. The world today looks pretty much as it did yesterday. Probably because

a. It was held in Winchester which is so far from the Nottingham footle heartlands as to be almost in France.

And

b. There was a ten pound fee, paid in advance mind, just to get in, £20 if you turned up on the day. I paid that to see Michael Buble (had to accompany the Missus on pain of death).

So it's basic algebra at the end of the day; a + b = 02 or no audience as non mathematicians call it.

[notorial dissent]

I would imagine the £10 up front pre-registration gave most of them pause, and the £20 at the door was probably largely insurmountable, particularly if it was a choice between that and a visit or two to the pub. One must have priorities after all.

[mufc1959]

There was also a competing event Colon was putting on in Nottingham yesterday. Curious. Have he and Tom fallen out?