Sovrun Paraleguls

[notorial dissent]

What Gregg says is absolutely true.

In most online ACH type transactions there are three checks, the first one at the merchant to see that you actually enter something like valid information, 9 digits for the RTN, and some number for the account number. I've known some places that would verify the RTN either by the check digit or actually against a valid number table, they don't change all that often. The next check is when it hits Fed clearing and they validate against the RTN, and that is all. Next and final is when it hits the bank's system and validates against their account database and either processes or rejects. ACH transactions are all processed in batch and run against the system once a day so there can be about a three day lag in acceptance or rejection, but usually about 24 hrs. These days ACH and check processing are about the same time wise. ACH can be a bit longer because it usually takes 24 hours for them to actually get them in to the system if they are manually input rather than automated and then another 24 hours to go through.

MC/VISA is a whole other ball of wax. Except in very rare cases anymore they are pretty much real time. Whether you swipe or key in a card pretty much the same things happen. The card is validated, by the number count(16) and its check digit initially, and then by the encoded info if it is swiped, or by the CVV code if it is entered manually, THEN it goes against the MC/VISA data base, which is updated sometimes several times a day, and again verified, and then the transaction is either approved or declined depending on what the database shows, active/closed - balance/no balance, at which point a decline or approval will be issued, and if approved a six digit approval code will be issued and tagged to the transaction. Card transactions are processed on an approved paid cycle of 24 hours. If you get an authorization on Wed it will pay/clear on Thurs, with the weekend/holiday being the exception. I can't speak for AMEX or Discover but they are all pretty much the same any more. One thing is a constant, banks don't like float when it is not in their favor, and having customers owe them money is not in their favor even if it is just for a short period.

Cards, debit or credit, are pretty much real time any more. Checks and ACH still have a processing turnaround, those systems haven't been interconnected, yet, my understanding is that is the next phase of the system.

[Gregg]

My bank's RTN is 242 077 312... Canadians do it differently? I honestly don't pay that much attention to it anymore. I got into the car business when most of this was theoretical future stuff and the internet was AOL chat rooms or worse.

[Gregg]

It'll be hard to make ACH real time, unless you eliminate paper checks or standardize priority of payment standards.

If I have $100 in my checking account, and I write a check for $96 on Wednesday that is presented for payment on Thursday (which is itself a major improvement with optical check processing) and on Thursday I also buy gas on my debit card for $20 and buy a kazzoo on Amazon with an ACH payment for $10 later Thursday. Which payment gets bounced?

Both Amazon and the gas station got authorization before processing the order (Amazon before they ship, BP before the pump turns on) and even though the check was presented at open of business on Thursday most banks clear checks at 2 PM (a real throwback, who else is old enough to remember banks closing at 2 Pm on Wednesdays? There is still a remnant of that in a lot of banks, they clear checks at 2, who knew?) Some banks throw tradition to the wind and clear physical checks at close of business in presentment day and some at midnight on presentment day.
And there is no standard and different priorities. If they pre-authorized the card payments those payments go to the vendor and the account it overdrawn, the check will bounce and the bank will hit you with 3 fees.....or the check will clear but the other two do clear but you get 2 overdraft fees...or....see where this goes?
These rules are bank rules and if ACH is gong real time a standard will need to be set, which is simple enough but getting the customers used to it is going to cause problems. There are people who KNOW the policies of their bank and do things to exploit it just as much, if less successfully, as the banks do, to maximize the float. When this was all done by hand you could get away with a lot. Like opening a bank account on vacation across the country and using that checking account to get a real 3 day float because the check you wrote in New York has to physically go to San Francisco to be processed.

No, really, I remember when banks, ALL banks, closed at 2:00 on Wednesdays. Isn't that quaint?

[Burnaby49]

In the USA a lot of sites allow ACH transactions, which stands for Automated Clearing House. You enter a 9 digit code for yor bank, and then you account number. Unlike credit cards, the account number doesn't have a dictated format or accepted fields. I'm not sure if that's even possible in the UK...

Never heard of it or its equivalent here in Canada. All of my online purchases are directly by credit card or Paypal. I don't have debit.

[Gregg]

Hey, I'm going to be in Canada next week, but Windsor is a little far to buy you a beer I take it?

Hell, Windsor is barely Canada anyway, isn't it?

[Burnaby49]

Hey, I'm going to be in Canada next week, but Windsor is a little far to buy you a beer I take it?

Hell, Windsor is barely Canada anyway, isn't it?

Far? It's barely a 36 hour drive away, only 2,483 miles from my front door. Unfortunately I don't drive.

It's barely in Canada the same way Toronto and Greater Vancouver are barely in Canada, border towns with the US lurking beside us. At least Vancouver has Seattle and Portland across the border, not Detroit.

[notorial dissent]

As long as it took to get the current clearing system working, I really doubt they will be doing real time ACH/checking anytime soon, although the mechanics are already there, but the implementation would be a real bear, they'd have to do something with the FED live MC/VISA do now and I don't know if they are up to that yet.

[Gregg]

Hey, I'm going to be in Canada next week, but Windsor is a little far to buy you a beer I take it?

Hell, Windsor is barely Canada anyway, isn't it?

Far? It's barely a 36 hour drive away, only 2,483 miles from my front door. Unfortunately I don't drive.

It's barely in Canada the same way Toronto and Greater Vancouver are barely in Canada, border towns with the US lurking beside us. At least Vancouver has Seattle and Portland across the border, not Detroit.

Well I know that, the Ford Plant is about half a mile from the USA...I just wasn't sure where you were, I thought you were out west, but something made me think you might be in Ontario somewhere.

Y'all haven't built a wall have you?

[rosy]

Checks/cheques? We don't use them here any more except some businesses have them; most current accounts don't even offer a cheque facility any more. Thinking back to when I was working in finance, they were cleared overnight and processed before any overnight deposits into the account.

It's not difficult to find a valid sort code and account number; many companies and charities have them on their websites so that people can transfer money to them. But just finding a valid sort code and account number won't allow these numpties to empty bank accounts - there's more to setting up a transfer than that!

To set up a transfer from my account at the Co-operative Bank requires me to sign in using my fingerprint on mobile banking or username & password & three random characters from my memorable number on internet banking. Then I have to confirm any new transfer or payment instruction by getting a four digit code from an automated call to my mobile or by using a card reader which generates a code only if my debit card is inserted. I can do small one-off transfers with only my fingerprint, but only up to £30.

If someone were to find my sort code and account number - perhaps by having sight of my debit card or seeing my pdf bank statement on my computer (I don't get paper statements) - they still could not set up a transfer from my account. The most they could possibly do is to impersonate me to set up a direct debit over the phone to a charity, but my bank texts me whenever a new dd is set up so I'd be able to stop it before it took effect.

[HardyW]

I've invited Mike O'Brian to the thread, so if you're reading this Mike, you found the right place...

and dammit, I sent him to this one, when more US info is on the US forum.... here

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9038&start=1480#p248848

(He's one of the You Tube gurus raging against the machine, be nice)

Gregg, thank you for the correction saying you "sent him to the US one", that would be either the Harvey Dent one in US Sov Cit board or the bigger/older one in the badly-named NESARA board.

This UK-specific thread has become overrun with non UK-related posts about Treasury Direct bond nonsense, and it really could use Burnaby doing his magic and shifting most of the material elsewhere. Fogbow has a single thread called "Federal Reserve shenanigans 2017" so maybe a new thread with some title of the same sort would do the trick.

[Burnaby49]

Well I know that, the Ford Plant is about half a mile from the USA...I just wasn't sure where you were, I thought you were out west, but something made me think you might be in Ontario somewhere.

Y'all haven't built a wall have you?

I chose my Quatloos name based on where I've lived for the past 40 years, Burnaby British Columbia, the municipality to the immediate east of Vancouver. About as far west as you can get apart from Vancouver Island.

[Dr. Caligari]

At least Vancouver has Seattle and Portland across the border, not Detroit.

The last time I was in Detroit (on business), I saw my all-time favorite highway sign, "Canada next right."

[Firthy2002]

The expert returns...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg-DlCBqB9Y

[Burnaby49]

The heart of it is at 9:27 where he says;

That means (some gibberish to do with the mortgage registration) somebody else has already got or bought off your mortgage so it's already been paid for. You don't owe a penny on it, it's quite obvious if somebody buys your mortgage they've paid it off. You didn't ask them to do it but hey, thanks a lot! Nice one pal, good luck with that one. Anyways I have all the evidence here but I'm not going to show it to you all.

Then he played 'Bad to the Bone' by George Thorogood and the Destroyers. He's saying better not cross him, he's one tough hombre. But, somehow, I don't think it is "quite obvious" to the mortgage purchaser that it is now paid off and they can't collect on it.

[SteveUK]

Idiot Mitch has got a cunning plan to dodge his mortgage. A promissory note. As we all know, this is 100% guaranteed to work fail every time.

Has anyone managed to create or is there a template for a promissory note that can be used in the uk correct typeset etc I intend to send one for a final mortgage payment one I have attached my conditions to the said note and had it noterised and delivered to the chief financial officer of the bank I am sending the note too any help would be greatly appreciated

Of course, with the stunning PN wins from Tom, o'bernica etc , you'd have thought the alarm bells would be ringing ?

No



But yes Mitch. When you're broke, homeless and contemplating your great win, do pop back and let us all know how it went.

[Burnaby49]

He'll do so about the same time that those other idiots share the details of their victory in acquiring their neighbour's house for free because their mortgagor put 17 rather than 17A on a document.

I was wondering what you were doing posting at about 5AM UK time until I remembered you're basking on a tropical beach in, appropriately, Ceylon (to give Sri Lanka its old name).

[rumpelstilzchen]

I would imagine that "the South African guy" is Michael Tellinger who made videos demonstrating how you can make your own promissory notes. Tellinger lost his house.

[Burnaby49]

I would imagine that "the South African guy" is Michael Tellinger who made videos demonstrating how you can make your own promissory notes. Tellinger lost his house.

Who else? He's obviously referring to Ubuntu although not Nelson Mandela's interpretation of it.

[John Uskglass]

The expert returns...

I notice he makes a brief reference to Helen at the start of the video, but is still silent on the results of her attempt to steal her neighbour's house.

As I watched, I thought he was looking as if things were beginning to get to him, but I wasn't prepared for the final five minutes, which seem to demonstrate that he's completely lost the plot.

[Pottapaug1938]

At least Vancouver has Seattle and Portland across the border, not Detroit.

The last time I was in Detroit (on business), I saw my all-time favorite highway sign, "Canada next right."

In northwestern Vermont, there is a sign, on I-89, saying "Canada 1 (mile)".