von Nuthouse raided

[Imalawman]

That's an impressive investigation contained in the application. They've been really investigating this organization for a while. I think Mr. VonNuthouse is in a lot of trouble. He thought he would serve 5 years if he lost to the gov't, I think he'll be lucky with 5 years if he loses to the gov't.

He was running quite an effective scam. TP's are so generous with their money.

[buck09]

Okay, doaky, Capt., move me if you must. One point of order. Properly understood, as it was before the word was Orwellized, infaltion means an increase in the money supply, which, all other things remaining unchanged (the standard parameter of all economic theories), causes prices to increase.

Your point of order is incorrect.

1. Increasing money supply is a factor that can lead to inflation. (As we see with that thug Mugabe) But

2. Inflation can still occur in an environment where money supply remains level or even declines.

It's clear that you don't really have a handle on macroeconomics, so you can take your fed rants elsewhere.

Moderator's note - this was noted in the Zimbabwe thread in Rantings, Ravings and Political issues.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

Just a not really but kind of related question.

Back when Congress set up our monetary system it based the dollar on the Spanish milled dollar and divided it into legal units:
mill, cent, dime, dollar and eagle. The eagle was the official $10 unit (hence the term for the gold coin), now is "eagle" just a bullion nickname or is it still technnically $10?

[grixit]

Is it possible that the liberty dollar operation could be deemed an 1820 style wildcat bank?

[The Operative]

Just a not really but kind of related question.

Back when Congress set up our monetary system it based the dollar on the Spanish milled dollar and divided it into legal units:
mill, cent, dime, dollar and eagle. The eagle was the official $10 unit (hence the term for the gold coin), now is "eagle" just a bullion nickname or is it still technnically $10?

To the best of my knowledge, the "American Eagle" is now just a bullion nickname. Silver "Eagles" only come in 1 oz. size with a "face" value of $1. Gold "Eagles" come in four different sizes, 1/10, 1/4, 1/2, and 1 oz. The "face" values are $5, $10, $25, and $50 respectively. Platinum "Eagles" also are minted in four sizes of 1/10, 1/4, 1/2, and 1 oz. The "face" values are $10, $25, $50 and $100 respectively.

[SteveSy]

That's an impressive investigation contained in the application. They've been really investigating this organization for a while. I think Mr. VonNuthouse is in a lot of trouble. He thought he would serve 5 years if he lost to the gov't, I think he'll be lucky with 5 years if he loses to the gov't.

He was running quite an effective scam. TP's are so generous with their money.

Man, most of you really do border the definition of retarded.

At no point did the he make a claim that would have tricked someone in to buying something based on a false or misleading advertising scheme. There was no scheme, the price of silver and the weight of the coins were easily obtainable from his site. At no time did he guarantee the face value of the coin would correspond with the price of silver, gold or platinum. To even assume they could or should correspond without the price of precious metals being fixed would make you a moron. His claim was clear and concise, the coins were backed 100% by 1 troy ounce of silver, or by the amount metal indicated on the note or coin. The notes do not make a claim you will receive the denomination amount of U.S. dollars worth of silver.



There is no claim by the federal government he did not have sufficient metal stock to redeem the notes based on the amount of metal indicated on the notes themselves. The only claims that have been made are made here by people who do not know fact one but will gladly vilify people based on ignorance which is an all to common event. btw, if one were to redeem this particular bill he would have received 1/10th of an ounce or about $1.41 today in U.S. dollars.

If he is guilty for selling a coin for more than the value in metal it contains then the Fed is the biggest fraud of all. Of course that would only be one reason the Fed is the biggest fraud, there are so many reasons it would take a book to list them all. If anything the federal government is the thief and scam artist they seized all the metal deposits of the liberty dollars owners notes making them currently worthless.

[Nikki]

There is no claim by the federal government he did not have sufficient metal stock to redeem the notes based on the amount of metal indicated on the notes themselves. The only claims that have been made are made here by people who do not know fact one but will gladly vilify people based on ignorance which is an all to common event. btw, if one were to redeem this particular bill he would have received 1/10th of an ounce or about $1.41 today in U.S. dollars.

That was only true before silver reached Nothaus' predetermined break point, at which time he revalued all of his coins and scrip to be worth 50% of the original value.

[SteveSy]

There is no claim by the federal government he did not have sufficient metal stock to redeem the notes based on the amount of metal indicated on the notes themselves. The only claims that have been made are made here by people who do not know fact one but will gladly vilify people based on ignorance which is an all to common event. btw, if one were to redeem this particular bill he would have received 1/10th of an ounce or about $1.41 today in U.S. dollars.

That was only true before silver reached Nothaus' predetermined break point, at which time he revalued all of his coins and scrip to be worth 50% of the original value.

You're wrong....

When he makes the adjustment you have the option to trade in your old currency for the new which is double. The bill above is redeemable for 1/10th of an ounce regardless of the price of silver or what new note might say.

Inevitably, the next question is: "What can I do with the old $10 certificates?" Since nobody will want to use $10 backed by one ounce of silver when they can use a $20 Certificate backed by one ounce of silver, there are three choices to DOUBLE your Liberty Dollars in paper form: (1) You can exchange the $10 certificate with a $10 Silver Base (and all related issues) for a new $20 certificate with a $20 Silver Base at no charge; (2) you can redeem the $10 certificate (and all related issues) for the silver; (3) you can hold the $10 certificate (and all related issues) as a store of value and exchange or surrender them at any time up to 20 years from date of issue on each Certificate. This exchange is possible because silver is fungible i.e. one Troy ounce of .999 fine silver is equal to any other Troy ounce of .999 silver. All Silver Certificates are redeemable for silver, regardless of the price of silver, since the silver is warehoused before the warehouse receipts are issued to NORFED. Regardless of silver price, each certificate is 100% backed by a specific amount of .999 fine silver, as defined by the terms on the back and is always redeemable by the bearer on demand.

- http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/faqs/si ... er-ten.htm

[jg]

...The bill above is redeemable for 1/10th of an ounce regardless of the price of silver or what new note might say.

And now?
Can any of his customers get anything at all for the bill above?

[SteveSy]

...The bill above is redeemable for 1/10th of an ounce regardless of the price of silver or what new note might say.

And now?
Can any of his customers get anything at all for the bill above?

Ironically you state that as if Liberty Dollars were at fault....the truth of course is the Federal Government just screwed all of the holders of those notes by making frivolous claims. Claims even a frigging moron could see through.

The FBI agent frivolously makes the claim the notes were not 100% backed by silver because the notes are denominated for more than silver is worth.....as anyone can clearly see by the wording written on the note, or from the numerous pages at http://www.libertydollar.org, that's not what was meant by 100% backed. Just look at the paragraph I quoted above, it clearly and concisely shows the government is raising patently fraudulent charges. It took me less than 2 minutes to expose the government's fraud.

[notorial dissent]

Steve, after getting a good rant up and flying off half assed, proves yet again that he cannot add, or think.

The $10 dollar certs were issued at a time when silver was trading in the $6-8 range, and he was charging $10 for it, so the most they could have gotten out of the deal was 80¢ in silver for each $1 cert, a clear 20% face value loss added to the premium they paid at purchase. A real good inflation proof investment there. Actually it would have been to their advantage to have traded out the old $10 certs as they would have been worth considerably more in silver at that point than was paid for them in cash at purchase, and von Nuthouse knew that, which is why he upped the ante so to speak.

To my knowledge, nowhere in the indictment is actual weight of bullion reserve even mentioned. He is not being accused of simple fraud, Stevsie, he is being accused of counterfeiting and uttering, and general fraud, and money laundering-this one I am still not clear on, but I’ll bet it’ll get juicy before it is done.

And as usual, Steve’s mouth runs without brain engaged, or apparent involvement. The silver certificate has on it’s face the terms NEGOTIABLE, REDEEMABLE BY THE BEARER ON DEMAND, 1 DOLLAR, SILVER CERTIFICATE, and the word CURRENCY. This is more than enough to bring it into the realm of Title 18 Sec 400. It looks like currency, it is trying to be currency, it is in violation of that section. The same applies to the coins, they look like US coins. The statute does say they have to be exactly like legal coins, just that they have the look and appearance of legal coins. And before you start ranting again, I do not believe he is guilty of true counterfeiting, but he is dead bang guilty of utterance, and they can and will nail him on that. The other half of it was that he was more than amply warned, and continued on his merry way, and has now come to this pass.

I still do not believe that he had the reserves to back what he supposedly had issued, but then I am not convinced he told the truth about that.

Earlier I listed my estimates of the amount of metal reserves he would have to have to cover his issue, and I have still yet to see any verification of anything close to that, or an actual accounting of what is currently outstanding.

What I do know is that he has left his paper holders in a very tenuous position, I doubt that they will ever be able to redeem their paper at this point, and I am not sure of the status of the medallion holders, they could be ruled to be holding counterfeit coins which could get tricky, of course melting them down and selling for the metal price would recover some of the loss, and again they might actually survive as collector’s items, but that is a very fickle so yesterday market.

[SteveSy]

Steve, after getting a good rant up and flying off half assed, proves yet again that he cannot add, or think.

The $10 dollar certs were issued at a time when silver was trading in the $6-8 range, and he was charging $10 for it, so the most they could have gotten out of the deal was 80¢ in silver for each $1 cert, a clear 20% face value loss added to the premium they paid at purchase. A real good inflation proof investment there.

Well considering that $1 liberty dollar is now worth 1.41 U.S. dollars you don't have a leg to stand on.

Actually it would have been to their advantage to have traded out the old $10 certs as they would have been worth considerably more in silver at that point than was paid for them in cash at purchase, and von Nuthouse knew that, which is why he upped the ante so to speak.

It was up to the people to trade them as they wished...no one was being ripped off. Everyone knew what they were getting.

To my knowledge, nowhere in the indictment is actual weight of bullion reserve even mentioned. He is not being accused of simple fraud, Stevsie, he is being accused of counterfeiting and uttering, and general fraud, and money laundering-this one I am still not clear on, but I’ll bet it’ll get juicy before it is done.

All of which are total BS nonsense. He never claimed these were U.S. dollars nor pretended that they were. There is no fraud whatsoever nor can you show any fraud has been committed, nothing under handed has taken place....except of course the government making the BS claim he tried to fool people in to believing the notes were backed by silver equal to the face value of the notes. The government knows they are frigging fraudulently making BS claims but that wont stop them.

And as usual, Steve’s mouth runs without brain engaged, or apparent involvement. The silver certificate has on it’s face the terms NEGOTIABLE, REDEEMABLE BY THE BEARER ON DEMAND, 1 DOLLAR, SILVER CERTIFICATE, and the word CURRENCY. This is more than enough to bring it into the realm of Title 18 Sec 400.

It looks like currency, it is trying to be currency, it is in violation of that section. The same applies to the coins, they look like US coins. The statute does say they have to be exactly like legal coins, just that they have the look and appearance of legal coins. And before you start ranting again, I do not believe he is guilty of true counterfeiting, but he is dead bang guilty of utterance, and they can and will nail him on that. The other half of it was that he was more than amply warned, and continued on his merry way, and has now come to this pass.

He never pretended nor implied these were U.S. minted coins..in fact he makes it clear they are NOT U.S. mint legal tender coins.

I still do not believe that he had the reserves to back what he supposedly had issued, but then I am not convinced he told the truth about that.

Well you have nothing but a guess to come to that conclusion. You have not fact one to back up such an accusation nor has the government made such a claim which they surely would have IF they knew or even thought he did not have enough stock to cover the notes.

[notorial dissent]

Steve your ability to ignore the obvious is amazing, and tiresome.

Steve, I gave you the list of things in my previous post that were sufficient to violate the statute, so I am not going to repeat myself again, and while von Nuthouse never claimed they were US currency or coin, he was pushing them as an alternative, and as an alternative currency, and they have the appearance of real currency and coin, and that too is sufficient to violate the statute. And then of course you come up with your own nonsense.

except of course the government making the BS claim he tried to fool people in to believing the notes were backed by silver equal to the face value of the notes.

As usual, Steve, you open mouth and insert foot. This is the one claim the gov’t HASN’T made.

I said I didn’t think there was enough metal to cover his issue.

He never pretended nor implied these were U.S. minted coins..in fact he makes it clear they are NOT U.S. mint legal tender coins.

No one said he had, I said, and the gov’t said, that they had the appearance of legal issue which is a violation. He did however, skate as close to the edge as he could, which didn’t help matters.

As usual Steve, you do not read what was written.

I said I did not believe he had sufficient metal to cover issue, that is an opinion Steve, O P I N I O N!!!!! Other than the fact that you here contradict yourself directly from what you said above, big surprise, no one else has said anything about it either.

Nice try Steve, but do try and keep your rants straight. It won’t give you any more credibility, but at least it will keep from appearing too big a fool.

[The Operative]

All of which are total BS nonsense. He never claimed these were U.S. dollars nor pretended that they were. There is no fraud whatsoever nor can you show any fraud has been committed, nothing under handed has taken place....except of course the government making the BS claim he tried to fool people in to believing the notes were backed by silver equal to the face value of the notes. The government knows they are frigging fraudulently making BS claims but that wont stop them.

At the Liberty dollar website, it says repeatedly that Liberty dollars are currency and to use them as such.

Title 18 U.S.C. § 486
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Face it Steve, Von NotHaus broke that law. Anyone who uses liberty dollars as money (Shaun Kranish) also breaks that law.

[Famspear]

At the risk of repeating something that may have already been posted, Bernard von NotHaus wrote:

Liberty Dollars are a proven and profitable currency that protects and grows the purchasing power of your money!

And:

The Liberty Dollar is the second-most popular and the fastest-growing currency in America! It's backed by gold and silver instead of being backed by national debt like our familiar US dollars. When you hold the Liberty Dollar, you own silver. When you give this REAL money to someone as payment, they now own silver. Pretty neat, huh?

On the other hand, when you hold US dollars, you own debt that you will eventually have to repay. When you give US dollars to someone as payment, they now have debt. Ouch!

If someone gave you a choice between a stack of ordinary ten-dollar bills and a stack of ten-dollar bills that were printed on the back with a coupon for 5 gallons of gasoline, good at any gas station in the country, which would you choose?

The first stack is just dollar bills. The second stack is also dollar bills, or if gas prices go up, you can use the back of the bills and fill your tank.

You'd have to be crazy to take the first stack! Why not get the benefits of a negotiable currency coupled with the redeemability for a useful commodity, in this case, gasoline? If gas prices go up, you win while everyone else complains about the high cost of gas! If prices don't rise, you still have your ten-dollar bills!

Liberty Dollars are backed by silver. You can use the face value on the front like cash - or redeem it for silver as specified on the back. Silver is a valuable commodity whose price has been going up! Silver is used in photography, jewelry, electronics, and industrial production. You may not use silver yourself, but there's a worldwide market for it! Simply by choosing a more valuable money, REAL money, you can profit!

Best of all, since the Liberty Dollar is a free market currency, you can actually get it at a discount when you become a Liberty Associate and make money when you place it into circulation!

And:

The Liberty Dollar is private, inflation proof REAL money that is devoid of inflation and debt. It's a currency of the people, for the people, and by the people.

And:

Just as FedEx brought competition to the Post Office and it became incredibly successful, the Liberty Dollar emulates the same model by offering an inflation proof currency. Now you can become incredibly successful too.

The Liberty Dollar brings free enterprise to the creation of money [ . . . ]

--Bernard von NotHaus

from:

http://www.libertydollar.org/

as downloaded on 20 November 2007 (bolding added).

Now, again, 18 USC 486 (in part):

Whoever [ . . . ]makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

This area of law is not an area of concentration for me, but I think that Mr. von NotHaus might indeed have a problem in connection with the aforementioned section 486.