Von Nuthouse raid (Continued)

[Demosthenes]

Wednesday, November 21, 2007

Spokane
FBI raids seize dies, records in CdA
Operation targets 'Liberty Dollar'
Bill Morlin
Staff writer
November 16, 2007

As part of a nationwide investigation, FBI agents raided three Coeur d'Alene business locations on Thursday, seizing records and dies used to make the so-called silver "Liberty Dollar" sold throughout the United States by anti-government patriot groups.

The Coeur d'Alene raids coincided with similar raids by FBI and U.S. Secret Service agents, on Thursday at the Evansville, Ind., headquarters of organization called NORFED – the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act & Internal Revenue Code.

For a decade, the organization led by a self-described "monetary architect" and harsh critic of the Federal Reserve System has pumped out an estimated $20 million its own currency, reportedly backed by silver coins minted and stored in Coeur d'Alene. The raids Thursday are the first head-on federal challenge to that operation.

Since 1998, the NORFED silver coins were manufactured at Sunshine Minting, a private Coeur d'Alene business which makes a variety of precious metal products. The silver coins backed up paper currently in $1, $5 and $10 denominations marketed by NORFED.

The organization was about to begin selling and distributing "Ron Paul" dollars, supporting the candidacy of the Republican congressman from Texas who's seeking the GOP nomination for president. He previously ran for president as a Libertarian.

Dies used to produce the coins reportedly were seized at the Coeur d'Alene minting company and accounting records were seized with warrants served at two Coeur d'Alene accounting firms, according to law enforcement sources.

"They took a lot of stuff out of there," one source said of the serving of a federal search warrant at Sunshine Minting, located at 750 W. Canfield, not far from the Kootenai County Sheriff's Office.

Officials with the sheriff's office were unaware of the raids. Federal authorities in Idaho referred inquiries to the U.S. Attorney's Office in the Western District of North Carolina, where the federal investigation apparently is being spearheaded. Those officials couldn't be reached Thursday afternoon.

The raids were confirmed by three other sources who asked not to be identified.

Tom Power, the current owner of Sunshine Minting, did not return telephone calls Thursday, but other employees said he was at the company located at 750 W. Canfield, north of Coeur d'Alene, shortly after federal search warrants were used to confiscated various items.

The Coeur d'Alene company was producing the Liberty Dollars under a contract with Bernard von NotHaus, a self-described "monetary architect" and critic of the Federal Reserve System who started NORFED while he lived in Hawaii in the late 1990s. His organization had tax-exempt, nonprofit status.

"We never refer to the American Liberty as a coin," von NotHaus told The Spokesman-Review in 1999. "The word 'coin' is a government-controlled term. This is currency that is free from government control."

"When the people own the money, they control the government," he said. "When the government owns the money, it controls the people."

Since then, his anti-government coin-producing operation reportedly has put $20 million of its "Liberty Dollars" in circulation. They can be used at merchants willing to accept them as legal tender or so-called "redemption centers" located in most states.

A man claiming to be von NotHaus posted notice of the federal raids Thursday on the Internet.

"I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville," the posting said.

"For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum, and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that were just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files and computers and froze our bank accounts," the statement said.

It asked purchasers with pending orders to be patient.

"We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the U.S. Constitution," it said.

"We should not be defrauded by the fake government money," according to the statement.

The United States Mint recently issued a statement saying "prosecutors with the Department of Justice have determined that the use of these gold and silver NORFED 'Liberty Dollar' medallions as circulating money is a federal crime."

"Consumers who are considering the purchase or use of these items should be aware that they are not genuine United States Mint bullion coins and they are not legal tender," the U.S. Mint statement said.

In a 1999 interview with The Spokesman-Review, von NotHaus claimed his money was not only legal, but much-needed competition for the government. At the time, Federal Reserve and House Banking Committee officials collectively scratched their heads when asked if von NotHaus' coin business was illegal.

"We're going to be to the Federal Reserve System what Federal Express was to the Postal Service,'" the "monetary architect" told the newspaper.

At the time, von NotHaus owned the Royal Hawaiian Mint, which had contracts with Sunshine Minting Co. in Coeur d'Alene to manufacture the American Liberty silver coins.

Von NotHaus said his paper currency – in $1, $5 and $10 denominations – was backed with equal amounts of the $10 coins, stored in a vault in Coeur d'Alene.

Audits of the silver in the vault were done by an unidentified Coeur d'Alene accounting firm and are posted on NORFED's extensive Web site ( http://www.norfed.org), according to a 1999 news story published in The Spokesman-Review.

[Famspear]

quote from above:

"We never refer to the American Liberty as a coin," von NotHaus told The Spokesman-Review in 1999. "The word 'coin' is a government-controlled term. This is currency that is free from government control."

Ah, the magic of words!

Merely avoiding calling it a "coin" will somehow keep you out of jail?

My sister's dog is brighter than that.

[SteveSy]

Nice, the government steals more gold and silver from people.

[SteveSy]

quote from above:

"We never refer to the American Liberty as a coin," von NotHaus told The Spokesman-Review in 1999. "The word 'coin' is a government-controlled term. This is currency that is free from government control."

Ah, the magic of words!

Merely avoiding calling it a "coin" will somehow keep you out of jail?

My sister's dog is brighter than that.

Nothing in the constitution forbids someone from making medallions or items that are marked with a dollar figure. If so we better rip all those gift cards off of Best Buy's and Walmart's racks. They too have a dollar figure attached used to buy stuff with.

The Liberty Dollar and other precious-metal mintings distributed by NORFED, Inc., dba the Liberty Dollar, never have claimed to be, do not claim to be, are not, and do not purport to be, legal tender, or a coin.

The noun currency has many dictionary definitions - for example, without limitation, "that which is current as a medium of exchange[,]" "circulation as a medium of exchange[,]" "a common article for bartering[.]" In the sense that currency may be used to refer to the coinage of a government the Liberty Dollar never has claimed to be, does not claim to be, is not, and does not purport to be, currency.

The noun money also has many dictionary definitions - for example, again without limitation, "something generally accepted as a medium of exchange[,]" "a measure of value[,]" "a means of payment[.]" In the sense that money may be used to refer to the coinage of a government the Liberty Dollar never has claimed to be, does not claim to be, is not, and does not purport to be, money.

The phrase legal tender is more specifically defined and does not meaningfully vary from the authoritative BLACK'S LAW DICTIONARY definition, "The money (bills and coins) approved in a country for the payment of debts, the purchase of goods, and other exchanges of value." In other words, legal tender is what a government authoritatively designates as the medium that the government will accept in payment of taxes. The Liberty Dollar never has claimed to be, does not claim to be, is not, and does not purport to be, legal tender. The Liberty Dollar repeatedly has emphasized that it is not legal tender. Legal tender and barter are mutually exclusive. The Liberty Dollar is a numismatic piece or medallion which may be used voluntarily as barter.

The noun coin invariably is defined as "a round piece of metal issued by governmental authority as money" or an equivalent phrase. The Liberty Dollar never has claimed to be, does not claim to be, is not, and does not purport to be, a coin. Any claim of the forgoing would be contrary to the purpose and function of the Liberty Dollar, which, in addition to its being a numismatic item, is a means of voluntary barter.
The Liberty Dollar will refer all inquiries to counsel in Washington, D.C.

September 19, 2006

- http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/faqs/disclaimer.htm

No one from Norfed attempted to pass their items off as government money. They never tried to claim their items are legal tender so that people would accept them for payment. All exchanges were completely voluntary. No one was forced to accept these items. What is wrong with letting people barter? If you don't like the trade don't accept the damn things, no one tried to trick you into accepting these things. Don't go off and try and vilify the people involved and engage in legitimizing the seizure of property simply because you are so intolerant of another's opinions.


The government is engaged in fraud, they have created a lie in order to get a warrant. Anyone can plainly see Norfed has NEVER claimed the amount denominated on the notes would be exchangeable for an amount equal to the market price of precious metals. The notes clearly state otherwise right on them.

I find it sickening people such as those on this board are so intolerant of another's opinion that they're willing to accept shutting down legitimate businesses and seizing citizens property simply because they do not like what they stand for.


These are advertised on TV

They're are purposely intended to look just like government issued coins. Why aren't they being shut down?

[Famspear]

SteveSy wrote:

Nothing in the constitution forbids someone from making medallions or items that are marked with a dollar figure. If so we better rip all those gift cards off of Best Buy's and Walmart's racks. They too have a dollar figure attached used to buy stuff with.

Nothing in the Constitution forbids someone from committing murder, either. Conduct is criminalized primarily by statutory law, not by a constitution.

The punishment for murder is provided by statute, not by the Constitution. Likewise, the punishment for making or using coins as "current money" is provided by statute.

You are right; there is probably no law forbidding someone from making medallions or items marked with a dollar figure. That's not the issue.

The issue is whether merely avoiding the use of the word "coin" would make the use of a Liberty Dollar "medallion" as "current money" not be classified as criminal conduct under 18 USC 486. In other words, is the Liberty "medallion" really a "coin" for purposes of section 486? I don't know the answer to that question, as I haven't studied all the relevant law on the subject. I am simply saying that merely avoiding the use of a certain "word" does not necessarily relieve someone of criminal culpability.

By the way, as far as I know, no one in this case has been charged with violations of any criminal statutes (at least not yet).

And we've already been through the "Best Buy" example. Again, the issue would not be whether "they have a dollar figure attached used to buy stuff with." The issue would be whether they violate section 486 (or some other statute). I don't think anyone uses "Best Buy" cards as "current money." Indeed, about the only place you can redeem them is at Best Buy stores. They're simply gift cards.

[Famspear]

SteveSy wrote:

No one from Norfed attempted to pass their items off as government money. They never tried to claim their items are legal tender so that people would accept them for payment. All exchanges were completely voluntary. No one was forced to accept these items. What is wrong with letting people barter [ . . .]

The issue is not whether they attempt to pass the items off as "government money." At least with respect to coins, the language of the statute does not require that you have intended to pass them off as "government money" in order for the conduct to be illegal.

The "legal tender" concept is a red herring. There is nothing in the statute on coins that says anything about "legal tender," which is a separate concept from "currency" or "current money."

There is nothing that criminalizes "barter," per se.

The potential problem for von NotHaus is that he claims the Liberty Dollars are "REAL money," to use his terminology. If (and that's an "if") the so-called "medallions" are ultimately deemed to be "coins" and if, as von NotHaus claims, his "medallions" are intended to be used as "real money" or "currency," then he and anyone else who makes them or intentionally uses them might have criminal problems under section 486. In such a case, merely referring to the transactions as "barter" transactions would not necessarily relieve an individual of criminal liability.

[SteveSy]

The issue is whether merely avoiding the use of the word "coin" would make the use of a Liberty Dollar "medallion" as "current money" not be classified as criminal conduct under 18 USC 486. In other words, is the Liberty "medallion" really a "coin" for purposes of section 486? I don't know the answer to that question, as I haven't studied all the relevant law on the subject. I am simply saying that merely avoiding the use of a certain "word" does not necessarily relieve someone of criminal culpability.

The purpose of that section was to prevent someone from passing counterfeit coins or coins that appear just like U.S. minted coins so that someone could be conned. That's simple common sense. The government is misusing that section in order to shut down a legitimate operation. No one that I can find on the net has ever complained about being ripped off by Norfed or duped in to believing these coins were "current money". No one was refused their precious metal if when they tried to exchange their notes. Of course now they are because the government stole their stored silver/gold and made their notes currently worthless.

And we've already been through the "Best Buy" example. Again, the issue would not be whether "they have a dollar figure attached used to buy stuff with." The issue would be whether they violate section 486 (or some other statute). I don't think anyone uses "Best Buy" cards as "current money." Indeed, about the only place you can redeem them is at Best Buy stores. They're simply gift cards.

No one that I know of and certainly no web page has tried to pass Norfed's coins off as "current money" meaning it's accepted by the government as legitimate money.

Look at the warrant, I can't believe you don't have a problem with the outright BS the FBI agent used to get the warrant. The main assertion used by the Agent is that Norfed is engaged in a scam where people were duped in to believing the denominated value on the notes represented 100% of the market price of metal if you were to exchange them.

Only an idiot or a person engaged in his own con could make such a claim. It's written clearly right on the note what you will get.

The dollar is dropping like a rock and the Fed is simply insuring it will have a monopoly no matter what happens. It doesn't want anyone to have an opportunity to escape its control.


btw, all gift cards are intended to be used as "real money" or "currency" in the same sense that liberty dollars are. You purchase a card, just like you purchase a liberty note, and you buy crap with them. In fact I would argue such things as visa/mastercard gift cards are more so in violation because they are given to be used for the sole purpose of making purchases. They are given when you receive "cash back" or rebates. Which are advertised as a return of "real money" / currency.

[The Observer]

And we've already been through the "Best Buy" example. Again, the issue would not be whether "they have a dollar figure attached used to buy stuff with." The issue would be whether they violate section 486 (or some other statute). I don't think anyone uses "Best Buy" cards as "current money." Indeed, about the only place you can redeem them is at Best Buy stores. They're simply gift cards.

Actually, I think there has been discussion before about people organizing in using merchant debit cards as a way to circumvent currency systems and to put money out of the reach of the government. The fact that the cards do not require identification of the user is probably what attracts evaders.

But it isn't the utopia that some "patriots" may think it is. First off, you cannot earn interest on the cards - you are actually giving the issuing merchant a free loan (and whatever interest they earn on banking your money until the card amount is redeemed; a new report several months reported that merchants see the cards as a finance tool since a great deal of money sits on the cards as long as a year). Secondly, some merchants put a time limit on the card that voids it after not being used during that time period (although I think some states have passed legislation against that practice. The third problem is that the cards are rather limited in use and are not typically portable from one vender to another (although a card from a merchant that provides a wide range of products/services, such as Wal-Mart would be more useful). Finally, trying to use the cards as a medium of exhange among consumers has the typical problems of security and fraud loss.

In any event, Steve's analogy of trying to compare debit cards to Liberty dollars is wrong, as usual. No merchant or vendor has ever advertised their debit system as a way to protest the government's currency system, nor have they claimed debit cards to be an alternate currency that has the backing of precious metals.

[SteveSy]

In any event, Steve's analogy of trying to compare debit cards to Liberty dollars is wrong, as usual. No merchant or vendor has ever advertised their debit system as a way to protest the government's currency system, nor have they claimed debit cards to be an alternate currency that has the backing of precious metals.

Both of those arguments are non-sequitors because the law doesn't say you can't use barter if it is used to protest the government. Nor does the law say you can't offer notes that are backed by gold or silver. Also, it's not to protest the government it's to protest U.S. fiat currency or the Fed, basically the same thing. The Fed is not the government it's a private institution which acts independently which is utilized by the U.S. government.

Gift cards are advertised, specifically so, as alternate currency. In fact on many occasions you are forced to use them because many rebates and refunds are received only through a visa gift card or matercard. I've never seen where a merchant gave someone change, refund or rebate in liberty dollars forcing them to accept them as money.

More importantly is who is being hurt by what Norfed is doing? Are they hurting you? Have you found any information to show someone complained of being conned or ripped off? Do you have any information showing people did not voluntarily engage in these exchanges by Norfed? The only people I see being hurt are by the hand of the government, they have made all of the Liberty notes worthless because they seized, based on outright lies, all of their exchangeable property.

I don't own any of these things but I find what the government is doing as appalling. No one was hurt by Norfed or complained about being hurt. The government has intentionally hurt people to the tune of about 20 million or whatever the value is of the metal they seized.

[Famspear]

SteveSy wrote:

The purpose of that section was to prevent someone from passing counterfeit coins or coins that appear just like U.S. minted coins so that someone could be conned.

No, Steve, the purpose of section 486 is to prevent someone from passing ANY such coin of ANY design, whether made as a fraudulent copy of an official U.S. minted coin or whether of “original design.” That’s why the text of section 486 specifically says that.

SteveSy wrote:

btw, all gift cards are intended to be used as "real money" or "currency" in the same sense that liberty dollars are

[ . . . ]

You purchase a card, just like you purchase a liberty note, and you buy crap with them

Steve, that is laughable. Under your line of “reasoning,” just about EVERYTHING is money.

Everyone knows that gift cards are redeemable only at limited places – i.e., at the businesses of the merchants that issue or accept them. And gift cards are purchased.

The use of a credit card involves the creation of debt to finance a purchase, etc. You are literally borrowing from the credit card company to make the purchase. The merchant is paid by the credit card issuer on your behalf. You receive a bill from the credit card issuer a few weeks later, and you pay off the credit card debt with a payment to the credit card issuer, not a payment to the merchant.

By contrast, “money” is intended to be used anywhere. Unlike the use of a credit card, the mere use of one's own money does not create a debt owed by the user.

Unlike a gift card, money is not something you “purchase” and then give to a friend or family member, to be used only at certain stores. And Liberty Dollars are not intended to be limited for use only at certain stores.

The whole concept of currency, or current money, is that the item used as money is intended to be accepted, and is accepted, in the economy at large, not merely at “Best Buy” or wherever you bought your “gift card.”

These are pretty basic concepts, Steve.

SteveSy wrote:

Both of those arguments are non-sequitors [sic] because the law doesn't say you can't use barter if it is used to protest the government. Nor does the law say you can't offer notes that are backed by gold or silver.

Wrong again, Steve. Regarding coins, there is no law (of which I am aware) that exempts “barter” from the application of section 486. Merely “bartering to protest the government” does not de-criminalize behavior if (and again, I’m saying “if”) that behavior is deemed to involve criminal behavior regarding “coins” under section 486. If section 486 criminalizes certain conduct, then the mere fact that the conduct was also intended as a “barter to protest the government” is probably not going to save that individual.

On the "paper" Liberty Dollars, the law does not need to specifically say that someone "cannot offer notes backed by gold or silver" in order for the law to criminalize that person’s behavior. Is the intentional use of the paper Liberty Dollar as “real money” a criminal offense? It’s not an area of law I have yet researched in depth.

[Famspear]

Steve, here's 18 USC 486 again:

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

--Bolding added by Famspear

[Famspear]

SteveSy wrote:

No one that I know of and certainly no web page has tried to pass Norfed's coins off as "current money" meaning it's accepted by the government as legitimate money.

Wrong again, Steve. The issue is not whether von NotHaus or Liberty coin users have tried to say that the coins are accepted by the government as being legitimate money. Under section 486, you can be in violation regardless of whether you try to pass off a coin as being “accepted by the government as legitimate money” or not.

The two key issues are: (1) Are the Liberty coins really “coins,” for purposes of section 486, and (2) are they made or intended to be used as “current money” (regardless of whether they look anything like U.S. Mint official coins or not).

On the question of whether they’re deemed to be coins under section 486, who knows?

On the question of whether they’re intended to be used as “current money,” von NotHaus himself has said:

"We never refer to the American Liberty as a coin," von NotHaus told The Spokesman-Review in 1999. "The word 'coin' is a government-controlled term. This is currency that is free from government control."

--bolding added by Famspear; see:

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/st ... ?ID=219774

A reasonable jury could conclude that von NotHaus is simply avoiding the use of the term “coin” because he realizes that using that term could get him into trouble. Unfortunately, von NotHaus immediately steps in it by using the term “currency” to describe the “American Liberty.” That was back in 1999. So, the question is: Are the coins – oops, excuse me, the “non-coins,” the “medallions” he issues today – intended as “currency,” i.e., as “current money”?

If the Liberty coins (uh, excuse me, "non-coins") he issues today are essentially the same as the American Liberty "non-coins" to which he made reference back in 1999, his own words might help convict him if he were to be charged under section 486.

And even if he had never used the terms “currency” or “current money,” that would not necessarily negate criminal culpability. Merely avoiding the use of a particular legal term does not necessarily make otherwise criminal behavior into something non-criminal.

Again on the Liberty coins, two important issues would appear to be (1) are they “coins,” and (2) are they made or intended for use as “current money.”

[Quixote]

SteveSy wrote:

No one that I know of and certainly no web page has tried to pass Norfed's coins off as "current money" meaning it's accepted by the government as legitimate money.

I see you haven't read the "How to use the Liberty Dollar" section on libertydollar.org.

. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

7. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.

Notice that they suggest you not tell any part of the truth about the LD unless directly asked. Then be sure to represent its value as deceptively as possible. Don't say "I like to think it's worth $20," but rather that it's "valued at $20."

I especially like the 30 seconds part. As if the clerk is going to mull it over for 30 seconds before accepting or rejecting the funny money.

[Famspear]

For paper money, the follow would seem to apply:

18 USC 471. Obligations or securities of United States

Whoever, with intent to defraud, falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.


18 USC 472. Uttering counterfeit obligations or securities

Whoever, with intent to defraud, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or with like intent brings into the United States or keeps in possession or conceals any falsely made, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.


18 USC 473. Dealing in counterfeit obligations or securities

Whoever buys, sells, exchanges, transfers, receives, or delivers any false, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, with the intent that the same be passed, published, or used as true and genuine, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

--bolding added.

For coins, we have:

18 USC 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

--bolding added.

Regarding the paper Liberty Dollars: Does their manufacture or use violate anything in sections 471, 472, or 473?

Assuming that the paper Liberty Dollars are sufficiently “unlike” Federal Reserve notes in physical appearance, I could see that there might be a stronger case for proving violations in connection with the Liberty coins (section 486) than there would be for the paper Liberties (sections 471, 472, or 473). I’m no practitioner in this field, but it would seem that paper “currency” that is sufficiently different from Federal Reserve notes is unlikely to be confused with Federal Reserve notes and is unlikely to have been manufactured or used with an intent that anyone be defrauded. In other words, could the manufacture and use of the paper Liberties be legal EVEN IF they are intended for use as “current money” – as long as they are not intended to fool anyone into thinking that they are Federal Reserve notes, etc.???? However, see Quixote’s post, just above.

By contrast, the manufacture or use of the Liberty coins might be illegal even if the coins were completely different in appearance from official U.S. coins – as long as (1) the Liberty coins are really considered “coins” for purposes of section 486 (an open question?), AND (2) the Liberty coins are intended for use as “current money” (whatever that means).

[The Observer]

Gift cards are advertised, specifically so, as alternate currency. In fact on many occasions you are forced to use them because many rebates and refunds are received only through a visa gift card or matercard.

Wrong. Gift cards have never been touted as "alternate currency", especially for the reason that vendor disagrees with the monetary policy of the Fed or because the vendor believes that FRNs are baseless in value. Nor does the gift card issuer claim or imply that the gift card can be used at other vendors' stores without prior agreement.

More importantly is who is being hurt by what Norfed is doing? Are they hurting you? Have you found any information to show someone complained of being conned or ripped off? Do you have any information showing people did not voluntarily engage in these exchanges by Norfed?

The potential for being hurt is on those who may not understand what they are getting because of slick language of Nuthaus. We had the incidence of that idiot Shaun trying to pass Liberty dollars on unsuspecting employees of a food mart or some similar enterprise. That alone is enough for me to believe Nuthaus had taken this enterprise too far, not to mention the questions that have been raised with his unorthodox practices in auditing of his precious metal inventory.

I don't own any of these things

And there is a reason you don't own any of these things, Steve. Because deep down you know they aren't worth the money being paid for them and you don't want to be ripped off. It is just too bad you could care less about others being ripped off.

[The Observer]

I especially like the 30 seconds part. As if the clerk is going to mull it over for 30 seconds before accepting or rejecting the funny money.

Or even better, the fact that the customer will expect in change the "phony" currency of the FRN instead of Liberty currency. After all, if the point of the Liberty dollar campaign is to provide a currency that is backed with precious metals, why didn't Nuthaus provide a variety of denominations in coins so that participants in his program wouldn't have to worry about having to deal with risky US 1's, 5' and 10s? Why is it only important for $20 to be fully backed by silver?

How quickly would the Liberty dollar sink if merchants started providing similar Liberty coins as change instead of FRN currency? I bet TPs would be screaming like mad about how the stores were ripping them off.

[The Observer]

The dollar is dropping like a rock and the Fed is simply insuring it will have a monopoly no matter what happens. It doesn't want anyone to have an opportunity to escape its control.

Really? How many other precious commodity businesses have been raided by the government in the last week?

[SteveSy]

Gift cards are advertised, specifically so, as alternate currency. In fact on many occasions you are forced to use them because many rebates and refunds are received only through a visa gift card or matercard.

Wrong. Gift cards have never been touted as "alternate currency", especially for the reason that vendor disagrees with the monetary policy of the Fed or because the vendor believes that FRNs are baseless in value. Nor does the gift card issuer claim or imply that the gift card can be used at other vendors' stores without prior agreement.

Please explain why the part in red makes a difference according to the law.

You use that as a determining factor yet its baseless when it concerns the law. The law makes no such distinction, you've simply concocted a bogus premise to base your argument on.

As far as the "prior agreement" they simply advertise wherever the gift card is accepted. Liberty dollars can be used wherever liberty dollars are accepted.

More importantly is who is being hurt by what Norfed is doing? Are they hurting you? Have you found any information to show someone complained of being conned or ripped off? Do you have any information showing people did not voluntarily engage in these exchanges by Norfed?

The potential for being hurt is on those who may not understand what they are getting because of slick language of Nuthaus. We had the incidence of that idiot Shaun trying to pass Liberty dollars on unsuspecting employees of a food mart or some similar enterprise. That alone is enough for me to believe Nuthaus had taken this enterprise too far, not to mention the questions that have been raised with his unorthodox practices in auditing of his precious metal inventory.

No one that I know of how complained about it. Nothaus can no more be held liable for the acts of one person than can Mastercard be held liable for someone stealing a Mastercard and using it in an illegal fashion. So out of about 20 million in these liberty dollars you can produce two instances of someone misusing them who are not affiliated with Norfed? Oh boy you really have a good argument there.

I don't own any of these things

And there is a reason you don't own any of these things, Steve. Because deep down you know they aren't worth the money being paid for them and you don't want to be ripped off. It is just too bad you could care less about others being ripped off.

I knew all along the government would shut them down, not because its illegal, bogus or a rip off but because I know how our government operates. Oh and btw, if you purchased the liberty dollars 6 years ago they were worth 50% more than you paid for them, prior to the government stealing the metals that backed them up of course. If you kept the same amount in U.S. dollars they will now buy 50% less in silver. Whoever got those Liberty dollars did not get such a bad deal if you ask me. Whoever held on to U.S. dollars have gotten ripped off.


btw, I know deep down a lot of things aren't worth what people pay for them doesn't mean that people shouldn't be aloud to still sell it if people are willing to pay for it knowing in full what they are getting.

[SteveSy]

The dollar is dropping like a rock and the Fed is simply insuring it will have a monopoly no matter what happens. It doesn't want anyone to have an opportunity to escape its control.

Really? How many other precious commodity businesses have been raided by the government in the last week?

There's only one type of note like the Liberty dollar that I know of, you know of any others?

[SteveSy]

For paper money, the follow would seem to apply:

18 USC 471. Obligations or securities of United States

Whoever, with intent to defraud, falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.


18 USC 472. Uttering counterfeit obligations or securities

Whoever, with intent to defraud, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or with like intent brings into the United States or keeps in possession or conceals any falsely made, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.


18 USC 473. Dealing in counterfeit obligations or securities

Whoever buys, sells, exchanges, transfers, receives, or delivers any false, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, with the intent that the same be passed, published, or used as true and genuine, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

--bolding added.

For coins, we have:

18 USC 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

--bolding added.

Regarding the paper Liberty Dollars: Does their manufacture or use violate anything in sections 471, 472, or 473?

Assuming that the paper Liberty Dollars are sufficiently “unlike” Federal Reserve notes in physical appearance, I could see that there might be a stronger case for proving violations in connection with the Liberty coins (section 486) than there would be for the paper Liberties (sections 471, 472, or 473). I’m no practitioner in this field, but it would seem that paper “currency” that is sufficiently different from Federal Reserve notes is unlikely to be confused with Federal Reserve notes and is unlikely to have been manufactured or used with an intent that anyone be defrauded. In other words, could the manufacture and use of the paper Liberties be legal EVEN IF they are intended for use as “current money” – as long as they are not intended to fool anyone into thinking that they are Federal Reserve notes, etc.???? However, see Quixote’s post, just above.

By contrast, the manufacture or use of the Liberty coins might be illegal even if the coins were completely different in appearance from official U.S. coins – as long as (1) the Liberty coins are really considered “coins” for purposes of section 486 (an open question?), AND (2) the Liberty coins are intended for use as “current money” (whatever that means).

Please explain how "obligation or other security of the United States" remotely applies to the liberty dollar. "Current Money" is money that has the sanction of the federal government, that is its obvious meaning. the intended purpose of the law is to keep someone from issuing currency and passing it off as government accepted money good for all debts public and private. The word "coin" can not mean anything identified as the dictionary term coin as this would make every coin including game tokens and casino coins illegal.

Gift cards apply to every one of your arguments. They are intended to be used to purchase items at retailers around the country. They are backed up by the reserves of the company that issues them.