Von Nuthouse raid (Continued)

[notorial dissent]

Steve, you have your dumber than usual hat on tonight. There is no part of Sec 10 that ever allowed the States to coin money, that power is reserved to the Congress alone. As to the rest of your nonsense, a federal statute declaring what is or is not legal tender supercedes anything the state may have done previously, so again you rationalization doesn’t hold water.

Give it up Steve, you are grasping at straws and losing.

You must really be desperate for attention if you are going to all this trouble just to get someone to call you a fool.

[SteveSy]

And again, no one said they had, what was said was that they had the appearance of valid coinage, which is a crime.

Show me a law that says you can't make something with the "appearance of valid coinage". That's just made up garbage. The law uses the word coin in the legal tender sense. Meaning you can't present something and offer it as legally authorized government money.

At least liberty dollars are not pretending in any way shape or form to be real treasury money while the "replica's" are and they are somehow legal.

Now that's laughable.....I never claimed it was anything other than a replica pretending to be a real coin.

And yet you made the above quote exactly contradicting yourself. The replica is a replica because it claims to be one, and nothing else, and mainly because it does not exactly copy the original, and omits vital bits and does not violate the statute.

Liberty coins aren't anything like legal tender coins. Only a blind moron would assume they were similar. They omit nearly everything a legal tender coins has.

Nice try here Steve, but the only definition of currency that counts here is the one in the statute that they violate, and the rest of your examples specifically do not fit the definition because they are defined legally otherwise. Again a nice but equally futile attempt to claw your way out of the hole you dug with your own mouth.

You have confused the dictionary word "currency" with the wording in the statute. It's perfectly legal to create a form of currency. It's not legal to purport that the currency you made was authorized or created by the federal government.

[SteveSy]

Steve, you have your dumber than usual hat on tonight. There is no part of Sec 10 that ever allowed the States to coin money, that power is reserved to the Congress alone. As to the rest of your nonsense, a federal statute declaring what is or is not legal tender supercedes anything the state may have done previously, so again you rationalization doesn’t hold water.

Give it up Steve, you are grasping at straws and losing.

You must really be desperate for attention if you are going to all this trouble just to get someone to call you a fool.

Nothing in Section 10 gives the federal government the exclusive right to make money. It's not there nor was it ever there. Banks used to make their own currency...there are several SC cases where the government tried to tax them out of existence.


Oh I found this just for you dufus...I hope you'll feel as stupid as you appear by your last posts.

http://www.banknotes.com/usnbn.htm

I'm sure you'll desperately try and save face by claiming you intended to mean "coin" to mean metal coins and not money, currency etc in general.

Maybe a reminder is in order:

As has been pointed out to you numerous times, the Constitution give the Congress sole right to mint and control money, that is sole and absolute, there is no wiggle room there Stevie. Along with that right comes the power to regulate and enforce that right by law. As has all been pointed out to you on numerous occasions.

[Doktor Avalanche]

You're talking about negotiable instruments, not actual currency. A negotiable instrument is a specialized type of contract for the payment of money that is unconditional and capable of transfer by negotiation. Common examples include checks and banknotes (paper money).

I'm not an economics professor or a rank amateur and even I know when you're making an apples and SteveSy comparison.

[.]

A mister diffuses psilocybin and ether into the air.

A master could be doing the diffusing if Fuzz was around.

[SteveSy]

You're talking about negotiable instruments, not actual currency. A negotiable instrument is a specialized type of contract for the payment of money that is unconditional and capable of transfer by negotiation. Common examples include checks and banknotes (paper money).

I'm not an economics professor or a rank amateur and even I know when you're making an apples and SteveSy comparison.

Give me a break....

And exactly how is the liberty dollar any frigging different. You guys have gone so far off the deep end its unlikely you can come back. Those notes have "dollars" written on them, and look like money. Their purpose is to be used as currency. Some of those notes are issued by private banks and corporations. They will give you X dollars on demand. There are also early silver and gold certificates issued by private banks with the word "dollars" on them also.

They are no different. Norfed will give you silver or U.S. dollars on demand if you request. They are a promise that they will give you what the note states, they're title for property, in this case silver or gold.

The government does not have the exclusive authority to make any type of currency, they never have.



187X


1835

[Doktor Avalanche]

The basic functions of the Department of the Treasury include:

Managing Federal finances;

Collecting taxes, duties and monies paid to and due to the U.S. and paying all bills of the U.S.;

Producing all postage stamps, currency and coinage;

Managing Government accounts and the U.S. public debt;

Supervising national banks and thrift institutions;

Advising on domestic and international financial, monetary, economic, trade and tax policy - fiscal policy being the sum of these, and the ultimate responsibility of Congress.

Enforcing Federal finance and tax laws;

Investigating and prosecuting tax evaders, counterfeiters, forgers, smugglers, illicit spirits distillers, and gun law violators.

The United States Department of the Treasury is a Cabinet department and the treasury of the United States government. It was established by an Act of Congress in 1789 to manage government revenue. The first Secretary of the Treasury was Alexander Hamilton. President George Washington asked Hamilton to serve after first having asked Robert Morris. Hamilton almost single-handedly worked out the nation's early financial system, and for several years was a major presence in Washington's administration as well. His statue still stands outside the Treasury building.

The Department is administered by the United States Secretary of the Treasury and the Treasurer of the United States who receives and keeps the money of the United States. The Department prints and mints all paper currency and coins in circulation through the Bureau of Engraving and Printing and the United States Mint. It also collects all federal taxes through the Internal Revenue Service.

[SteveSy]

The basic functions of the Department of the Treasury include:

Managing Federal finances;

Collecting taxes, duties and monies paid to and due to the U.S. and paying all bills of the U.S.;

Producing all postage stamps, currency and coinage;

Managing Government accounts and the U.S. public debt;

Supervising national banks and thrift institutions;

Advising on domestic and international financial, monetary, economic, trade and tax policy - fiscal policy being the sum of these, and the ultimate responsibility of Congress.

Enforcing Federal finance and tax laws;

Investigating and prosecuting tax evaders, counterfeiters, forgers, smugglers, illicit spirits distillers, and gun law violators.

I don't' give a crap what the treasury department says on their web site, it's obviously wrong. The constitution never gave the government exclusive authority to create currency. The images I posted prove it. Besides the word currency means:

1. Money in any form when in actual use as a medium of exchange, especially circulating paper money.
2. Transmission from person to person as a medium of exchange; circulation: coins now in currency.
3. General acceptance or use; prevalence: the currency of a slang term.
4. The state of being current; up-to-dateness: Can you check the currency of this address?

That includes any type of checks or gift cards which would make every bank and retailer out there in violation of the law. Also, I print postage stamps from my computer via stamps.com as do millions of other people.

The law is intended and can only mean you can not pass off privately minted money in the sense of legal tender notes, in other words money created by or authorized by the federal government.

You're sinking fast....want to try again?

[Doktor Avalanche]

HAHAHAH!!!!!

Ummm...I'll take "Enumerated Powers Of The United States Congress" for 1000 Quatloos, please.

And the answer is Article One, Section Eight of the United States Constitution.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles (16 km) square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings.

Hey Stevie: when you're finished polishing all the brass on the Titanic, the deck chairs need some arranging.

[SteveSy]

HAHAHAH!!!!!

Ummm...I'll take "Enumerated Powers Of The United States Congress For 1000 Quatloos", please.

Sorry the word "exclusive" or "only" does not appear in section 10. The government is simply permitted the power to coin money and regulate the value of that money it created not the exclusive power.

If the government had the exclusive power they would have shut down all those older banks. Instead they tried to tax them out of existence because that was their only means of killing them off.

btw, I love how you dismiss the facts that prove you wrong by pretending they're insignificant because they're old. Maybe you didn't know but the constitution is older than those notes.

[Doktor Avalanche]

HAHAHAH!!!!!

Ummm...I'll take "Enumerated Powers Of The United States Congress For 1000 Quatloos", please.

Sorry the word "exclusive" or "only" does not appear in section 10. The government is simply permitted the power to coin money and regulate the value of that money it created not the exclusive power.

If the government had the exclusive power they would have shut down all those older banks. Instead they tried to tax them out of existence because that was their only means of killing them off.

Says you. I just blew your whole "nowhere in the Constitution" argument out the window but you want to trifle with me over definitions? Okay, go look up the definition for "enumerated powers."

On second thought, don't - I'll save you a trip: those are powers given to it (Congress) by the US Constitution. The enumerated powers are a list of specific responsibilities found in Article 1 Section 8 of the United States Constitution, which enumerate (grant) the authority granted to the United States Congress. Congress may exercise only those powers that are stated in the Constitution, limited by the Bill of Rights and the other protections found in the Constitutional text.

Section 10

States may not exercise some powers reserved for the federal government; they may not enter into treaties, alliances or confederations, grant letters of marque or reprisal, coin money or issue bills of credit (such as currency).

Furthermore, no state may make anything (such as Federal Reserve Notes) but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts. The states may not pass bills of attainder, ex post facto laws, impair the obligation of contracts or grant titles of nobility.

Reserved, Stevie...by the way, you missed a spot.

[.]

I really didn't think Sybil would be dense enough to show up spouting the gift card garbage one sees on any number of whack-job sites. I should have known better.

Regardless of all of that rubbish, VonNutBall's game is very simple.

He peddles his "money" for 50% to 100% more than the value of the metal needed to coin it or to be put in "storage" (in the case of his paper "money.")

Assuming $20 million peddled over the last 10 years, his gross profit before costs (minting, printing, shipping, commissions to paytriot vendors, storage costs, auditing costs, general overhead, etc.) was probably somewhere between $7 and $10 million. Net is unknown, but could easily be $5 million, perhaps much more.

One can be inspired to spout a lot of anti-Fed nonsense for $500K+ per year, especially if you're a recent bankruptcy filer.

His miscalculation would seem to be the federal laws regarding coinage and money laundering problems.

Money laundering was one of the things that got e-gold indicted. Occupational hazard in the cash (FRNs) metals business. In fact, other than idiot TP/conspiracy-types, I can't imagine that anyone OTHER THAN money launderers would want to pay the kind of totally obnoxious premiums NutBall was charging per ounce.

2% to 5% over spot is common for government minted bullion coins. At $15 silver, that's 30 cents to 75 cents per ounce. When I buy or sell silver in increments of 5,000 ounces in the form of futures contracts, I pay a commission of .048 cents per ounce. That's right, less than 1/20 of one cent per ounce. ($.00048/ounce.) A single contract for 5,000 ounces, worth ~$70-75K costs $2.40 to transact.

Nobody in their right mind would pay NutBall's "commission" of many dollars per ounce other than someone looking for a laundry. Well, other than goofy TPs and Fed conspiracists. They all deserve what they are getting.

I also note in passing the many stories I've read here and there on the internet about how some TP tried to pass a Libby. Usually without success, but they all love to mention which little shops will actually accept them. Somehow I imagine that the rate of acceptance is going to go from .00001% to .0000000000000001%.

[Doktor Avalanche]

I really didn't think Sybil would be dense enough to show up spouting the gift card garbage one sees on any number of whack-job sites. I should have known better.

Welcome to Quatloos.

[Doktor Avalanche]

btw, I love how you dismiss the facts that prove you wrong by pretending they're insignificant because they're old. Maybe you didn't know but the constitution is older than those notes.

Trust me, Stevie; when you actually hit upon the idea of fiat currency and what it's about I'll be more than happy to dismiss your notion of it, too.

In the meantime, your homework is to look up the United States National Bank Act of 1863 and 1864 and, in 1000 words or less, tell us what it was about.

[SteveSy]

Nobody in their right mind would pay NutBall's "commission" of many dollars per ounce other than someone looking for a laundry. Well, other than goofy TPs and Fed conspiracists. They all deserve what they are getting.

Well considering if you held on to your FRN's for six years you lost money over libbys I don't think it was such a bad deal.

btw, I find your positive attitude about people losing their property because you disagree with them disgraceful. It's the typical mentality here getting satisfaction over another's suffering simply because you have a different opinion. It's just revolting....

[.]

Welcome to Quatloos

<=== Joined: 30 Dec 2003

[Doktor Avalanche]

btw, I find your positive attitude about people losing their property because you disagree with them disgraceful. It's the typical mentality here getting satisfaction over another's suffering simply because you have a different opinion. It's just revolting....

Cry me a river, Stevie. It'd be revolting and disgraceful to have a positive attitude about people losing their property when they haven't done anything to deserve it.

In NutHouse's case, he had it coming.

In the meantime, read this: http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa081599.htm/

[.]

Well considering if you held on to your FRN's for six years you lost money over libbys I don't think it was such a bad deal.

Huh?

Silver was $5 an ounce less than 4 years ago. But, what anyone may have done with their FRNs has nothing to do with it.

The point is that anyone who paid VonNutBall's ridiculous multi-DOLLAR premium per ounce instead of some tiny fraction of a penny per ounce is an idiot.

Let me illustrate this for you:

The year is 2003. Silver is $5. A money launderer (or an idiot TP) pays $10 each in cash to VonNutBall for 5,000 Libbys. Cash outlay: $50,000.

At the same time, an intelligent investor deposits $25,000 (full price) with his broker in order to buy a 5,000 ounce long-duration silver futures contract at $5. Commission: negligible.

Silver is now $15. The money launderer now has $75,000 in silver coins.

Profit: $25,000 less whatever it costs to melt, assay and transact the end-product, say $1K.

He has to do that because he can't sell them to NutBall, NutBall has no money. He can't sell them anywhere except perhaps on eBay, one at a time, and he has 5,000 to sell, which will take years, if ever, considering that eBay doesn't like listings for illegal goods.

The intelligent investor also has $75,000 in equity in his account. All he has to do to sell his futures position is click his mouse.

He has a gross profit of $10 per ounce less the carrying costs of futures contracts over the previous 4 years, which is about 5% per year, or about a total of $2.00 per ounce for the 4 year holding period.

That's a net profit of about $8.00 per ounce, or $40,000. Costs to transact: negligible.

So, let's see. NutBall's customer has a profit of $25K, minus ancillary costs of $1K. Of course, NutBall pays no interest, so NutBall's guy also foregoes interest earnings on his $50K, and his net profit is reduced by the 4% risk-free rate of return, so his net return on his $50K over 4 years is really only $16K.

Which is less than a 30% gain on his $50K "investment."

As opposed to the NutBall guy, the intelligent investor earned interest on his credit balance with the broker at about the risk-free rate of return. He doesn't suffer an opportunity cost penalty on his $25K investment, he stayed even on that issue, the interest earnings are in his account.

The intelligent investor has a net profit of $40K after implied (built into futures prices) interest and storage (carry) costs on an investment of $25K.

Which is a net gain of 160% on his $25K investment.

Which is over 5 times the percentage gain using NutBall's "money."

Now, tell me again, Sybil, who got the bad deal? Not to mention that I'm ignoring the fact that the melt value of NutBall's "money" may or may not be exactly what it's cracked up to be.

Considering that deposits in futures accounts are backed up by billions of dollars in net worth of clearing members of exchanges and no customer of a clearing member has ever lost a penny due to the insolvency of a clearing member, would you rather buy your silver via a clearing member of a futures exchange or VonNutBall?

[wserra]

Excellent, clear explanation, ..

You make punctuation a little difficult, ., but you're worth it.

[.]

Well, gee, thanks, Wes. It's always my pleasure to embarrass Sybil and bring joy and laughter to the denizens of this little corner of sanity.

Sorry about the punctuation thing. It's an unfortunate byproduct of anonymity ala f*ckedcompany.com (a Phil Kaplan venture,) apparently now defunct for a couple of years, where anyone could post as a dot.