Von Nuthouse raid (Continued)

[SteveSy]

Well, gee, thanks, Wes. It's always my pleasure to embarrass Sybil and bring joy and laughter to the denizens of this little corner of sanity.

You haven't embarrassed me. You missed the point and are comparing apples to oranges. You aren't buying liberty dollars to invest you are buying liberty dollars to protect the value of your currency.

If you had $1000 in FRN's and $1000 in liberty dollars you gained with the liberty dollars and the FRN's you held lost 50% of their value.

You are looking at it from an investment perspective. You don't use you investment as a currency.

[grixit]

Well, gee, thanks, Wes. It's always my pleasure to embarrass Sybil and bring joy and laughter to the denizens of this little corner of sanity.

Sorry about the punctuation thing. It's an unfortunate byproduct of anonymity ala f*ckedcompany.com (a Phil Kaplan venture,) apparently now defunct for a couple of years, where anyone could post as a dot.

You worked for PKware?

[Doktor Avalanche]

You are looking at it from an investment perspective. You don't use you investment as a currency.

You must have missed the part where I handed you back your ass on a platter with all the trimmings, Stevie.

Libbys are not currency.

[grixit]

Hey, let's all issue our own currency. Mine will be the "Chewie", which will be backed by the fillings in my teeth. I'll just make up a bunch and offer to buy Stevesy's house with them.

[SteveSy]

You are looking at it from an investment perspective. You don't use you investment as a currency.

You must have missed the part where I handed you back your ass on a platter with all the trimmings, Stevie.

Libbys are not currency.

Yes they are currency, they're just not legal tender currency.

Go look up the definition of currency before your next post. Of course I've posted it two or three times now...apparently ignoring the facts is the only way you feel you can win an argument.

[.]

are comparing apples to oranges

Actually, I was demonstrating the rough equivalence between your mind and concrete, something which has been done here not only repeatedly, but by many different people. Thanks for helping out.

[SteveSy]

are comparing apples to oranges

Actually, I was demonstrating the rough equivalence between your mind and concrete, something which has been done here not only repeatedly, but by many different people. Thanks for helping out.

It's not concrete you ARE comparing apples to oranges. People are not buying liberty dollars for the silver they hold title to. You're constructing a strawman. Your argument is akin to saying people held on to government issued Silver Certificates because they were investing in silver which is, well, stupid.

The reason people used Liberty dollars is so they would be a protection against FRN inflation. A year 2000 liberty dollar with the face value of $20 will buy more than a year 2000 FRN. If the retailer does not accept Liberty dollars you have the option of trading in that 2000 liberty dollar for silver and converting it to FRN's. You would receive more than $20 in FRN's. This is of course prior to the government stealing all the silver and gold that backed those notes.

[LPC]

You aren't buying liberty dollars to invest you are buying liberty dollars to protect the value of your currency.

Ignoring for the moment your continuing word games with "current money" and "currency":

"Currency" is what I have in my wallet. I rarely carry more than $100, and it is usually spent within a week or two. How does a currency that contains silver with a value of 50% to 75% of the face amount of the currency "protect" me during that one or two week period?

And even assuming that it does protect me during that one or two week period, what difference does it make? If the dollar were to drop in value by 25% in a week, the value of the coins in my pocket would be the least of my worries.

So you're not really talking about the money in my pocket, but you're talking about stuffing money in a mattress, only using LDs and not FRNs. But in that case, you're talking about an investment, because every dollar I put in that mattress, whether in the form of an LD or FRN, is money I could not invest in stocks, real estate, or rare wines.

In short, your rationale du jour is simply another of your weasely, delusional attempts to sound rational while tap-dancing and juggling at the same time.

If you had $1000 in FRN's and $1000 in liberty dollars you gained with the liberty dollars and the FRN's you held lost 50% of their value.

Over what period of time? Why would I hold $1,000 in FRNs (or LDs) more than a few days?

You seem to be taking several inconsistent positions simultaneously:

1. LDs are currency;
2. Currency is not an investment;
3. LDs will be more worth more than FRNs over long periods of time;
4. Calculations of the value of LDs over long periods of time compared to investments over the same periods of time are irrelevant because LDs are not investments; and
5. Calculations of the value of FRNs over long periods of time are relevant because they will be worth less than LDs.

Which of those positions do you now want to disown, deny, weasel out of, or just plain lie about?

[SteveSy]

You aren't buying liberty dollars to invest you are buying liberty dollars to protect the value of your currency.

Ignoring for the moment your continuing word games with "current money" and "currency":

It's not word games, "currency" and "current money" have two different meanings. The first represents "something that is used as a medium of exchange", which includes checks, gift cards, tokens casino coins etc. The later represents money the government has declared as legal tender by law.

"Currency" is what I have in my wallet. I rarely carry more than $100, and it is usually spent within a week or two. How does a currency that contains silver with a value of 50% to 75% of the face amount of the currency "protect" me during that one or two week period?

It won't protect you in the next week or two unless of course the FRN drops seriously in value over that period. btw, I'm not sure where you got 50% to 75% of the face value....that never happened that I know of. I think currently its at a .155 loss on exchange per dollar and that's for the new issue not the old.

And even assuming that it does protect me during that one or two week period, what difference does it make? If the dollar were to drop in value by 25% in a week, the value of the coins in my pocket would be the least of my worries.

Well that's your opinion. Every time the dollar drops value the price of goods increase making your FRN's buy less and less. Since the economy runs on money I would say that's your biggest problem.

So you're not really talking about the money in my pocket, but you're talking about stuffing money in a mattress, only using LDs and not FRNs. But in that case, you're talking about an investment, because every dollar I put in that mattress, whether in the form of an LD or FRN, is money I could not invest in stocks, real estate, or rare wines.

No you don't stuff them in your mattress. You use them to trade with. When the dollar falls and precious metals increase you either exchange the liberty for the silver and get more than the face value of liberty dollars in FRN's or you trade in your liberty dollars for double the face value of new liberty dollars.

In short, your rationale du jour is simply another of your weasely, delusional attempts to sound rational while tap-dancing and juggling at the same time.

No, you just want to find fault so bad you miss the forest because all the trees are in the way.

If you had $1000 in FRN's and $1000 in liberty dollars you gained with the liberty dollars and the FRN's you held lost 50% of their value.

Over what period of time? Why would I hold $1,000 in FRNs (or LDs) more than a few days?

You wouldn't but I'm sure you would receive other liberty dollars in trade at some point if you were involved with liberty dollars. As FRN's drop in value you at some point will, get to trade in old liberty dollars for double the face value or you can trade them for silver and cash that in for more than the face value of the liberty dollars in FRN's.

The point is you lose nothing with the dollar drops value, your purchasing power in liberty dollars stays the same or close.

You seem to be taking several inconsistent positions simultaneously:

1. LDs are currency;

True

2. Currency is not an investment;

Not generally....not if you intended to use it.

3. LDs will be more worth more than FRNs over long periods of time;

Liberty Dollars do not lose value when FRN's lose value. It's not really an increase, the purchasing powers remains pretty constant. The increase comes from the fact that FRN's buy less because they lose value.

4. Calculations of the value of LDs over long periods of time compared to investments over the same periods of time are irrelevant because LDs are not investments; and

They provide stability in the value of your money.

5. Calculations of the value of FRNs over long periods of time are relevant because they will be worth less than LDs.

Look at it as an insurance policy against a devalued currency. You're simply protecting the purchasing power of your money. This affect happen as a group....the overall issue of the currency is protected.

I personally would not use the liberty dollars the way the program is setup. I see what they are trying to accomplish and I see the benefits to some degree. I personally think they should never revalue the notes, they should have remained constant though I see where some confusion would arise.

In any case I don't see a scam or illegal activity. They're just bartering plain and simple. No one is forced or tricked in to believing the government authorized these notes. No one is forced to use them. People who purchased these things new full well that the face value did not represent the equal market value in silver or gold, in fact it's written right on the notes what you will get. If you don't find it a good deal then by all means don't use them. Apparently a lot of people like them and use them what's wrong with that?

I mean if you had wide spread misuse reported where people were duped all over the place in to taking these things I can see the problem. The best I've seen so far is one person who misused them while the retailer in the end suffered no damage whatsoever.

[Doktor Avalanche]

You are looking at it from an investment perspective. You don't use you investment as a currency.

You must have missed the part where I handed you back your ass on a platter with all the trimmings, Stevie.

Libbys are not currency.

Yes they are currency, they're just not legal tender currency.

Go look up the definition of currency before your next post. Of course I've posted it two or three times now...apparently ignoring the facts is the only way you feel you can win an argument.

If it's not legal tender currency then it's not currency. You may as well have a fistfull of Monopoly money for all it's worth.

Currency is a unit of exchange, facilitating the transfer of goods and/or services. It is one form of money, where money is anything that serves as a medium of exchange, a store of value, and a standard of value. A currency is the dominant medium of exchange. To facilitate trade between currency zones, there are exchange rates, which are the prices at which currencies (and the goods and services of individual currency zones) can be exchanged against each other.

Currencies can be classified as either floating currencies or fixed currencies based on their exchange rate regime. In common usage, currency sometimes refers to only paper money, as in coins and currency, but this is misleading. Coins and paper money are both forms of currency.

Libbies do not fall under this definition. Libbies are no more currency than, say, casino chips.

[SteveSy]

You must have missed the part where I handed you back your ass on a platter with all the trimmings, Stevie.

Libbys are not currency.

Yes they are currency, they're just not legal tender currency.

Go look up the definition of currency before your next post. Of course I've posted it two or three times now...apparently ignoring the facts is the only way you feel you can win an argument.

If it's not legal tender currency then it's not currency. You may as well have a fistfull of Monopoly money for all it's worth.

Currency is a unit of exchange, facilitating the transfer of goods and/or services. It is one form of money, where money is anything that serves as a medium of exchange, a store of value, and a standard of value. A currency is the dominant medium of exchange. To facilitate trade between currency zones, there are exchange rates, which are the prices at which currencies (and the goods and services of individual currency zones) can be exchanged against each other.

Currencies can be classified as either floating currencies or fixed currencies based on their exchange rate regime. In common usage, currency sometimes refers to only paper money, as in coins and currency, but this is misleading. Coins and paper money are both forms of currency.

Libbies do not fall under this definition. Libbies are no more currency than, say, casino chips.

Boy how long did it take for you to find a description that sorta kinda supports your assertions? Problem is every dictionary definition out there proves you wrong. btw, if you read that carefully the description is subjective and fits the liberty dollar, checks, casino tokens and many things very nicely.

Currency is a unit of exchange, facilitating the transfer of goods and/or services.

Yes, liberty dollars and the others fits this description.

It is one form of money, where money is anything that serves as a medium of exchange, a store of value, and a standard of value

Yes, liberty dollars and the others fits this description.

A currency is the dominant medium of exchange.

Between who? Is the Paso the the dominant medium of exchange in the U.S., no...does that make it not a currency?

Is the liberty dollar the dominant medium of exchange between liberty users...could be. I'm sure it is between some.

To facilitate trade between currency zones, there are exchange rates, which are the prices at which currencies (and the goods and services of individual currency zones) can be exchanged against each other.

Yes, liberty dollars and the others fits this description. Each have their places of exchange for other currencies.


But of course we have strayed from the point. You have used money, currency, and current money as all being synonymous...they aren't. You have indirectly classified "current money" to be anything that represents medium of exchange. On the one hand you use it broadly so that you can force liberty dollars in to violating the law and then when you're shown that your broad use would also include things like casino tokens, checks or gift cards you revert back to a very precise use. The precise use, which it is, makes it a violation of the law only if you represent that your private currency is legal tender or in other words authorized by the federal government by law. Liberty dollars never made such a claim and in fact has gladly advertised that it isn't as if that benefits the user.

It's not illegal to have a piece of paper, plastic, metal or any other material with a numerical figure and the word "dollar(s)" written on it and use it to purchase or trade for something. It is illegal to represent that coin or note as authorized by law by the government or as the law describes it "current money".

[LPC]

You aren't buying liberty dollars to invest you are buying liberty dollars to protect the value of your currency.

Ignoring for the moment your continuing word games with "current money" and "currency":

It's not word games, "currency" and "current money" have two different meanings. The first represents "something that is used as a medium of exchange", which includes checks, gift cards, tokens casino coins etc.

No, the word "currency" means dollar bills, coins, and other legal tender.

For example, Merriam-Webster defines "currency" as:

1 a: circulation as a medium of exchange b: general use, acceptance, or prevalence <a story gaining currency> c: the quality or state of being current : currentness

2 a: something (as coins, treasury notes, and banknotes) that is in circulation as a medium of exchange b: paper money in circulation c: a common article for bartering d: a medium of verbal or intellectual expression

None of those definitions will include checks, gifts cards, or casino tokens, and you're not going to find any reputable authority that considers a check to be the same thing as currency.

Face it: You just make up this crap as you go along, and have no shame in making crap up because you're either too stupid or too delusional to admit that you are just making crap up.

"Currency" is what I have in my wallet. I rarely carry more than $100, and it is usually spent within a week or two. How does a currency that contains silver with a value of 50% to 75% of the face amount of the currency "protect" me during that one or two week period?

It won't protect you in the next week or two unless of course the FRN drops seriously in value over that period.

Then you've just admitted that the Liberty Dollar has no value over an FRN, unless you also want to reverse yourself and take the position that people should hoard LDs and hold onto them as investments.

[notorial dissent]

You aren't buying liberty dollars to invest you are buying liberty dollars to protect the value of your currency.

So explain to me again how paying $10 for $6-8 worth of silver, or $20 for $14 worth of silver is somehow protecting my money? Particularly when you have a direct 30% loss of value at the very start? Nor any guarantee that the price of silver is going to continue to rise, let alone stay stable. It has been known to collapse just as it is likely to rise. So in order to break even, the price of silver is going to have to rise about 40% just to break even, which isn’t likely.

If you had $1000 in FRN's and $1000 in liberty dollars you gained with the liberty dollars and the FRN's you held lost 50% of their value.

No, actually your Libbys cost you $1000 and immediately lost 30% of their value. Your 50% inflation rate is, along with the rest of your reasoning, ridiculous, as the current inflation rate is 2-3%. So starting with the initial 30% loss you have to figure in the actual inflation rate into the ongoing loss of your “inflation proof investment”. Sounds like Steve logic to me.

The point is you lose nothing with the dollar drops value, your purchasing power in liberty dollars stays the same or close.

Better check your math Stevie, you lost $300 to start with, and inflation is nibbling away at the remainder, and that is always assuming that silver doesn’t do a nose dive.

They provide stability in the value of your money.

Sure they do Stevo, providing you think a declining balance is stable or desirable. Oh wait, I forgot we were dealing with Sybil logic here. So you would think it was desirable.

[SteveSy]

If you had $1000 in FRN's and $1000 in liberty dollars you gained with the liberty dollars and the FRN's you held lost 50% of their value.

No, actually your Libbys cost you $1000 and immediately lost 30% of their value. Your 50% inflation rate is, along with the rest of your reasoning, ridiculous, as the current inflation rate is 2-3%. So starting with the initial 30% loss you have to figure in the actual inflation rate into the ongoing loss of your “inflation proof investment”. Sounds like Steve logic to me.

If you purchased a $1000 of liberty dollars in 2000 you gained 50-66% over FRN's simple as that. $1000 in year 2000 liberty dollars is valued at around $1500 FRN's. It's difficult to calculate the exact figure because I do not know what the cost v. silver was at that time. If we use the current figure it's about 15% more than the price of silver. Prior to the government's theft of the metals that backed them of course.

FRN's consistently lose value....they have since they were created and will continue to. Not to long from now you'll be paying $20 for a gallon of milk.

The rate of exchange is based on the price of precious metals not the published inflation rate. So the way you calculate inflation when comparing Liberty dollars is via the price of precious metals. In 2000 silver was $5 now its around $15. So if you had $1 in FRN it has lost about 2/3rd's of its value as compared to $1 in liberty dollars. Even assuming you held a yr 2000 $1 libby worth $.50 USD at the time you still gained over FRN's in 2007 because precious metals have increased so much.

I think where all of you are getting confused is that we are using the exchange rate to calculate value as if FRN's are the value. The value is the metal not the exchange. A liberty note holding title to once ounce of silver is still worth one ounce of silver and will continue to be until the expiration of the note. A $5 FRN from 2000 would have purchased one ounce of silver. A $5 FRN today will purchase 1/3rd of an ounce in 2007. The liberty dollar lost no value whatsoever.

[Doktor Avalanche]

That must be some Kool-Aid they're pouring over at Steve's place.

[.]

Poor Sybil still doesn't get it. Only conspiracy kooks and money launderers want anything to do with VonNutBall's ridiculously overpriced "money."

Anyone with active brain cells who is not trying to hide income wouldn't go anywhere near it for any reason. I've traded metals for decades, but even a total rube could find at least one of dozens of vastly less expensive alternatives in less than 30 minutes.

I wonder if VonNutBall accurately reported the apparently substantial income from his little venture selling overpriced metal to paytriots and launderers. Maybe that's what's next in the continuing saga of the "monetary architect."

[SteveSy]

Hey now, remember there are no laws that say you can't royally gouge suckers....er, clientele......for precious metal items.

If somebody is stupid enough to pay $20 for $15 worth of silver (a 33.33% mark-up) is allowed to under the law.

Conversely, with gold around $720 an ounce (give or take), a US Mint 1 oz. gold coin was going for $790, or about a 10% mark up.

And gold ingots and bars may have a lower mark-up as there is no minting involved.

What SteveSy misses out on in his Liberty dollar scenarios is he is assuming the price of gold and silver continue to rise in price to keep pace with inflation. He also assumes that a person's wages remain static. Inflation also applies to the price businesses have to pay for labor. If either of those givens is not true, then his scenario falls apart. Additionally, he is not allowing for the fact that precious metals, besides being an inflation hedge, are also speculative in nature and if those who have speculated think the time is ripe to get out of precious metals, they will sell their positions, dumping precious metals on the market and lowering the price. Such is the nature of commodities.

I never assumed anything I simply stated what did happen. People are not buying these things to get the silver, gold or platinum. They can buy that from any precious metal dealer.


Besides their value comes from the willingness of people to accept them. If a liberty retailer will give you $20 worth of goods for a $20 libby then there worth $20. If not then FRN's worthless.

[The Operative]

If you purchased a $1000 of liberty dollars in 2000 you gained 50-66% over FRN's simple as that. $1000 in year 2000 liberty dollars is valued at around $1500 FRN's.

Are you using liberty dollars as an investment or a currency? Which is it Steve?

If you take FRNs and stuff them in a mattress, that is an investment decision, a bad one, but still an investment decision.
Same thing with liberty dollars, if you buy them and stuff them in a mattress, that is still an investment decision. A person can only make the gain you claim if you compare holding on to the liberty dollars to holding on to the FRNs.

However, if you buy liberty dollars in 2000 to use as currency or a means of barter, you aren't holding them. Same with FRNs, you either buy something with them or you invest them. If you buy something with the liberty dollars, you may get the $1,000 worth of stuff. However, somewhere in the equation, someone will have to convert the liberty dollars back to FRNs. Whoever does that loses money. For example, using current liberty dollars of $20 face value for one ounce of silver. If a person passed a $20 liberty for $20 worth of stuff and then the merchant has to convert the silver to FRNs. If the merchant can find a coin dealer to give him FRNs for it, the coin dealer will only give him the market value of the silver at best. Currently, that is $14.75. Therefore the merchant is out $5.25.

If you buy liberty dollars as an investment, it is still a bad one. If a person had bought $1000 worth of liberty dollars in January of 2000. They would have 100 liberty dollars or 100 ounces of silver. If the purpose was to buy silver, that same person could have bought American Eagle silver dollars for about $6. Silver was trading between $5.10 and $5.40 an ounce in January 2000. At $6 per silver eagle, the person could have bought about 166 ounces of silver. Even if that person had traded their $10 silver liberties for $20 silver liberties, they would only have $2,000 face value of liberties and only $1,475 worth of silver. If that same person had bought silver eagles, they would have $2448 worth of silver.

FRN's consistently lose value....they have since they were created and will continue to. Not to long from now you'll be paying $20 for a gallon of milk.

The rate of exchange is based on the price of precious metals not the published inflation rate. So the way you calculate inflation when comparing Liberty dollars is via the price of precious metals. In 2000 silver was $5 now its around $15. So if you had $1 in FRN it has lost about 2/3rd's of its value as compared to $1 in liberty dollars. Even assuming you held a yr 2000 $1 libby worth $.50 USD at the time you still gained over FRN's in 2007 because precious metals have increased so much.

Again, you are assuming a person holds on to just the FRNs and doesn't invest them. I don't know about you, but my money is working for me all the time.

I think where all of you are getting confused is that we are using the exchange rate to calculate value as if FRN's are the value. The value is the metal not the exchange. A liberty note holding title to once ounce of silver is still worth one ounce of silver and will continue to be until the expiration of the note. A $5 FRN from 2000 would have purchased one ounce of silver. A $5 FRN today will purchase 1/3rd of an ounce in 2007. The liberty dollar lost no value whatsoever.

But it is still a bad investment. My $5 FRN may not buy as much today as it did in 2000, but because of investing, I have many more $5 FRNs than the lost value in purchasing power.

[SteveSy]

If you purchased a $1000 of liberty dollars in 2000 you gained 50-66% over FRN's simple as that. $1000 in year 2000 liberty dollars is valued at around $1500 FRN's.

Are you using liberty dollars as an investment or a currency? Which is it Steve?

I'm not using them for either...I don't own any and never have.

People are using them as a type of insurance policy.

If you take FRNs and stuff them in a mattress, that is an investment decision, a bad one, but still an investment decision.
Same thing with liberty dollars, if you buy them and stuff them in a mattress, that is still an investment decision. A person can only make the gain you claim if you compare holding on to the liberty dollars to holding on to the FRNs.

Are people stuffing them in their mattress? Boy that would be stupid. Actually, stuffing a bunch of yr 2000 liberty's would have netted you a pretty good gain maybe not as much as if you bought the silver itself but you still would have profited fairly well.

However, if you buy liberty dollars in 2000 to use as currency or a means of barter, you aren't holding them. Same with FRNs, you either buy something with them or you invest them. If you buy something with the liberty dollars, you may get the $1,000 worth of stuff. However, somewhere in the equation, someone will have to convert the liberty dollars back to FRNs. Whoever does that loses money. For example, using current liberty dollars of $20 face value for one ounce of silver. If a person passed a $20 liberty for $20 worth of stuff and then the merchant has to convert the silver to FRNs. If the merchant can find a coin dealer to give him FRNs for it, the coin dealer will only give him the market value of the silver at best. Currently, that is $14.75. Therefore the merchant is out $5.25.

Sure if they immediately convert them....but then that's not the intended purpose of liberty dollars.

Again, you are assuming a person holds on to just the FRNs and doesn't invest them. I don't know about you, but my money is working for me all the time.

They don't have to hold on to them....they trade them to buy stuff with get some back in other trades etc. etc.

But it is still a bad investment. My $5 FRN may not buy as much today as it did in 2000, but because of investing, I have many more $5 FRNs than the lost value in purchasing power.

You're not supposed to just hold on to your liberty dollars, you're supposed to use them.

You assume people are buying these things and then spending them and buying some more.....that would be stupid. The purpose is to use them and receive them back as either payment for services, goods or as change. As the value of FRN's decrease against precious metals you have the option to convert your current liberty dolars for silver and convert them to more FRN's than you would have had to pay for them or exchange them for double the face value in more liberty dollars.

All of your reasons for showing how liberty dollars are a rip off are based on bogus assumptions. People aren't getting these things to invest in precious metals, they're getting them to use as currency with the added benefit of an insurance policy of having them backed by something tangible.

A liberty with the backing of 1 ounce of silver will always be exchangeable for 1 ounce of silver....not so with the FRN. FRN's have consistently lost trade value since their creation and will continue to do so until, and after, you're using a $20 bill to buy a gallon of milk with. If anything the FRN is the real rip off....You would be hard pressed to find another exchangeable item that has such a poor record of retained value.

[SteveSy]

All of your reasons for showing how liberty dollars are a rip off are based on bogus assumptions. People aren't getting these things to invest in precious metals, they're getting them to use as currency with the added benefit of an insurance policy of having them backed by something tangible (hopefully).

I added one word to one paragraph of SteveSy's that sums up the potential problem with NotHaus' plan.

Well considering the history of the FRN and the history of precious metals I would say you have a very good chance of not losing value. With the FRN it's a guarantee you will lose value. Like I said previously it would have been better if they never changed the exchange rate but I see where it would be confusing to consumers who did not understand a $20 libby is worth $60 USD. Silver is extremely unlikely to ever go below $5 an ounce especially now that the FRN is on a one way train to almost certain collapse or near collapse.