County tells TPs "so sue us" over federal tax lien

[Quixote]

November 29, 2007
Commissioners Tell Group to Take IRS Lien Dispute to Court
By JOHN SOWELL

Douglas County commissioners told a group claiming that the federal Internal Revenue Service is illegally filing liens against property owners who have not paid their taxes to take their case to court.

Commissioners Doug Robertson and Joe Laurance said Wednesday they would not spend any more time arguing with members of the Lawmen ad hoc Steering Committee over the procedures followed by Douglas County Clerk Barbara Nielsen in recording liens submitted to the county by the IRS.

Members of the Lawmen group claim Nielsen has violated state law by recording the liens even though the IRS has failed to follow procedural steps required under state law. Nielsen and county attorneys say federal law allows the IRS to file the liens without going through all of the steps required of an individual or a private business.

Earlier this month, the Lawmen group submitted a proposed county ordinance that members said would alleviate their concerns. It laid out a set of six steps the group said needed to be met before IRS liens could be legally processed.

When the proposed ordinance was first presented, commissioners said they would entertain passage of it with a proviso that it would not go into effect until a Douglas County Circuit Court judge examined it and determined that it was constitutional.

The issue came up again Wednesday after Loma Wharton, a Winston resident who serves as chairwoman of the Lawmen group, told the Board of Commissioners her group would not accept changes to the ordinance suggested by County Attorney Paul Meyer.

Robertson and Laurance said Wednesday they were no longer willing to consider passing the proposed ordinance. They said they have been repeatedly advised by Meyer, Assistant County Attorney Kathleen Johnson and other outside attorneys that the county's recording of IRS liens is proper. A Douglas County judge recently ruled in a foreclosure case that an IRS lien was valid, Robertson said.

"We have gone the distance, I believe, with this issue. Whatever action is taken, it's going to end up in court. It appears to me that we have been advised as the Board of Commissioners by three lawyers and a Circuit Court judge that what the clerk is doing is not unconstitutional or illegal," Robertson said. "You believe differently."

In August, the Lawmen group asked the county to stop processing liens from the IRS. They said the paperwork submitted by the agency should appear only as a "Notice of Lien" in county records because the IRS had failed to comply with Oregon law on perfecting a lien.

In accepting the liens as presented, the group claimed the county had denied property owners their due process rights.

The issues raised, Robertson said, were state and federal issues. He told Lawmen group members it's time for them to take their arguments to a different forum.

"Ultimately, regardless of what we do, how much more time, effort and resources we spend on this, it's going to end up in court. So sue us. Sue the clerk. Get to court and get a decision," Robertson said.

Laurance agreed.

"We have given enough time and energy to this discussion and you need to take that discussion elsewhere," Laurance said. "Frankly, this board has done everything they can, with patience and understanding, and I suggest that the discussion end at the Board of Commissioners meetings."

He also said the group could take out a petition, collect signatures and have the proposed ordinance placed on the ballot. That would involve the same procedures carried out last year by the group that was successful in making Board of Commissioners seats nonpartisan.

Rae Copitka, another member of the group, repeated earlier threats that the Lawmen plan to take legal action against county officials if their demands are not met.

"If we don't get it here, again, criminal complaints will be filed," Copitka said. "We feel that we've been the ones that have been more than patient."

Both Copitka and Wharton also disputed Robertson's characterization of the judge's ruling in the Douglas County case. They said the judge had not ruled that the IRS lien filed in the case was valid.

One of the Lawmen's demands was that a notice of lien be filed in the county records as a notice of lien. The county should have agreed. It might have taken years for the Lawmen to figure out why that plan didn't work.

[.]

Where's Van Pelt when you need him?

I'm sure he could straighten those county commissioners right out.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

I love it! This is a classic example of "You ain't going to win anyway so stop wasting our time."

Rae Copitka, another member of the group, repeated earlier threats that the Lawmen plan to take legal action against county officials if their demands are not met.

OOH can I do this. Before the Republicans come to town I demand the city council pass a "no eating in convention arenas" ordinance, if they don't meet my demands I will sue!

Did you hear that Mayor Coleman?!

I am a powerful bushytail!

[wserra]

"If we don't get it here, again, criminal complaints will be filed," Copitka said.

Round-filed.

Why do wackos believe that they have any power whatsoever to initiate criminal proceedings against anyone?

[LPC]

Where's Van Pelt when you need him?

Right idea, wrong whacko. This is obviously a job for Mitch "Checkmate!" Modeleski, aka Paul Andrew Mitchell.

[The Observer]

One of the Lawmen's demands was that a notice of lien be filed in the county records as a notice of lien. The county should have agreed. It might have taken years for the Lawmen to figure out why that plan didn't work.

Especially since they didn't seem to notice that the county had been recording those notices of lien as notices of liens already and had been doing so for years.

It makes me wonder if these Lawmen are going to claim that they can be pretty quick if they need to be.

[.]

wrong whacko

IIRC, amongst all of his other NFTL/lien drivel, Van Pelt maintained that the feds had to follow procedural steps specified by state law.

Perhaps he and PAM could collaborate to further confuse these losers.

[Doktor Avalanche]

wrong whacko

IIRC, amongst all of his other NFTL/lien drivel, Van Pelt maintained that the feds had to follow procedural steps specified by state law.

Was that before or after he tried to convince us that FRN's weren't lawful money?

[LPC]

Apparently, this is the resolution/ordinance that Wharton/Copitka want the Douglas Co. commissioners to adopt (best to remove liquids from mouth before reading):

BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OF THE COUNTY OF DOUGLAS, OREGON

IN THE MATTER OF REVISING THE WAY ]

THE COUNTY OF DOUGLAS FILES ]

NOTICE OF FEDERAL TAX LIENS ] RESOLUTION

AND FEDERAL TAX LIENS TO PROTECT ]

THE RIGHTS AND PROPERTY OF THE ]

CITIZENS OF THE COUNTY OF DOUGLAS ]

WHEREAS, the current practice of filing Notice of Federal Tax Liens, herein after known as NOFTL, violates the Constitutionally protected Due Process rights of the Citizens of the County of Douglas, and;

WHEREAS, the current practice of filing NOFTL violates the Citizens right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, from unreasonable search and seizure arising under Article 1 section 8, Oregon Constitution and Article IV, US Constitution, and;

WHEREAS, the current practice of filing these NOFTL has caused the Citizens of the County of Douglas irrevocable and irreparable damage to their persons and property, and;

WHEREAS, the Citizens of the County of Douglas created and formed the Board of Commissioners of the County of Douglas; who swore an oath to protect and uphold the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Oregon; for the express purpose of having said Board defend and protect the Citizens of the County of Douglas from enemies both foreign and domestic, and;

WHEREAS, it has always been this Board of Commissioners obligation and duty to defend and protect the private property rights of the Citizens it was created to serve, and;

WHEREAS, the evidence presented to this Commission by the Oregon Lawmen ad hoc Steering Committee is overwhelming and compelling as to the proper way to file these NOFTL and bona fide Federal Tax Liens,

THEREFORE, we the County of Douglas Board of Commissioners do hereby resolve and do hereby enact the following process and procedure to be followed and adhered to for the recording of NOFTL and bona fide Federal Tax Liens, to be followed from this day forward;

1. Every bona fide NOFTL or Federal Tax Lien must include a complete copy of IRC section 6331 including section 6331(a), showing scope and limitation of authority regarding IRC 6331, in a print font not smaller than 8 point, and;

2. Every NOFTL and bona fide Federal Tax Lien received by the County of Douglas Recorder of Conveyance or any and every other official of this county, elected or appointed to carry out this duty, shall, from this day forward:

a. Verify that the appropriate documentation, certification, verification, and sworn affidavit be personally signed in front of the County of Douglas Recorder of Conveyance, by the Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator Enforcement Officer or Revenue Recovery Officer, under penalty of perjury, as being true, correct, certain, and complete and;

a. Ensure that the foregoing authentication, as set forth in subsection 1.a above, shall accompany every NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien, before the filing or recording thereof in the County of Douglas records, and;

b. Ensure that the foregoing authentication, as set forth in subsection 1.a above, shall accompany each and every NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien, before placing thereon the County of Douglas Recorder of Conveyance seal/stamp on said NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien, and;

3. That any Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator, Revenue Recovery Officer or Enforcement Officer, who shall present to the County of Douglas Recorder of Conveyance or any other official of this county, elected or appointed to carry out this duty, a NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien shall be hand delivered thereto and be accompanied by:

a. A positive IRS identification card and pocket commission containing a color photograph of the officer of which a copy shall be taken thereof and filed in the County of Douglas records with the NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien, and;

b. A thumb print of the right hand of the Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator, Enforcement Officer or Recovery Revenue Officer, and;

c. Written proof of Delegation of Authority from the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States ONLY to the Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator, Enforcement Officer or Recovery Revenue Officer from the, and;

d. The work and personal residence address of the Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator Enforcement Officer or Recovery Revenue Officer (in the event service upon said officer is needed), and;

e. The Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator, Enforcement Officer or Recovery Revenue Officer to ensure that he/she is not attempting to extort for personal gain, shall submit to a drug test which shall be administered by a competent medical laboratory facility, and a personal credit check, to be paid for by the Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator, Enforcement Officer or Recovery Revenue Officer, and;

4. Proof of Certification of NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien per ORS 87.811, and;

5. Form 23C Assessment Certificate-Summary Record of Assessment and a IRS form 4340 with a valid Office of Budget and Management (OMB) number, signed and dated by the Assessment Officer must accompany every certified NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien, and;

6. That all forms/papers/documents from the IRS MUST display a valid Office of Budget and Management (OMB) number, and such number shall be verified by County of Douglas Recorder of Conveyance, through the Office of Budget and Management.

THEREFORE, when, and only when all of the foregoing has been supplied, verified and accounted for, then and only then shall the above listed information, documentation, certification shall entitle the NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien to be date/time stamped and have the County of Douglas Recorder of Conveyance official seal/stamp affixed thereto and the said documents then be recorded in the appropriate permanent alphabetical Lien Index file, to be located in the County Recorder of Conveyance Lien Index, as per ORS 87.811.

THEREFORE, HEREINAFTER, NO NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien shall be electronically transmitted to the County of Douglas Recorder of Conveyance, and all NOFTL or bona fide Federal Tax Lien being hand delivered for filing and/or recordation that do not comply with and are not accompanied by ALL the above listed verification, documentation, certification, as prescribed by law, shall be stamped RETURNED FOR CAUSE - FRAUD and marked only with the time/date stamp, and then copied. The copy shall be placed in an appropriate sub index file in the County of Douglas Recorder of Conveyance Lien Index titled NON-NEGOTIABLE NOTICE OF FEDERAL TAX LIEN INDEX and the original thereof returned to the IRS.

BE IT RESOLVED: That from this day forward the foregoing is the process that shall be followed and implemented upon signing by the commissioners; ordained by this Board of Commissions of the County of Douglas, State of Oregon, who have sworn an Oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Oregon, to serve and protect the rights and property of the Citizens of the County of Douglas.

DEFINITIONS for this ORDINANCE:

authentication: the act of proving that something (as a document) is true or genuine, esp. so that it may be admitted as evidence; the condition as being so proved.

bona fide: authentic and genuine in nature, without any intention to deceive.

Certificate: a document in which a fact is formally attested.

certification: the act of attesting. The state of having been attested.

Citizen: A person entitled to all of the protections as set forth and delineated as being applicable to the People of the United States, in the First Ten Amendments of the Constitution of the United States of America, not withstanding the debilitating provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment; and likewise are entitled to the protective provisions set forth in the Constitution of the State of Oregon. For the purpose of this Ordinance - the word "C/citizen" and the word "P/people" are declared to be synonymous and equal in every respect.

conveyance: the voluntary transfer of a right or property.

lien : the legal right or interest that a creditor has in another's property, lasting usually until a debt or duty that it secures is satisfied.

oath: a solemn declaration, accompanied by a swearing to God or a revered person or thing, that one's statement is true or that one will be bound to a promise.

seal: an impression or sign that has legal consequence when applied to an instrument or document.

service: formal delivery of a writ, summons or other legal process. Process of service.

status: standing; state or condition; social position. The legal relation of individuals to the rest of the community, the rights, duties, capacities, and incapacities which determine a person to a given class. A legal personal relationship, not temporary in its nature nor terminable at the mere will of the parties, with which third persons and the state are concerned.

verification: confirmation of correctness, truth, or authenticity, by affidavit, oath, or deposition to assure good faith averments or statements of the party.

Dated this ______day of ____________2007

BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OF

County of Douglas

Chair:_________________________________

Comm:_________________________________

Comm:_________________________________

[wserra]

Why not just demand that the County announce its secession? Or at the very least declare that the IRS is just a bunch of empty headed animal food trough wipers?

[LPC]

In terms of setting up hoops for the IRS to jump through, they left out (a) DNA sampling and (b) certification of pedigree.

[Nikki]

It's surprising that the esteemed legal scholars and researchers of the Commission by the Oregon Lawmen ad hoc Steering Committee somehow totally missed the concept of Federal supremacy.

About the only thing the Douglas County Commissioners can make IRS agents, officers, etc do is obey the speed limits and feed the parking meters.

[ASITStands]

It's surprising that the esteemed legal scholars and researchers of the Commission by the Oregon Lawmen ad hoc Steering Committee somehow totally missed the concept of Federal supremacy.

About the only thing the Douglas County Commissioners can make IRS agents, officers, etc do is obey the speed limits and feed the parking meters.

But it's the "servant government" don't cha' know?

[hartley]

e. The Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator, Enforcement Officer or Recovery Revenue Officer to ensure that he/she is not attempting to extort for personal gain, shall submit to a drug test which shall be administered by a competent medical laboratory facility, and a personal credit check, to be paid for by the Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator, Enforcement Officer or Recovery Revenue Officer, and;

Wow. Just... wow.

A credit check and a DRUG TEST?

I didn't even have to go through all of that when I was hired by the IRS.

And at agent's personal expense, too.

Yep, those are some loonies.

[webhick]

b. A thumb print of the right hand of the Internal Revenue Special Agent, Criminal Investigator, Enforcement Officer or Recovery Revenue Officer, and;

That's forcing disability discrimination. This means that if you are missing the thumb on your right hand, your entire right hand, the entire right arm, etc, you are not allowed to perform the full duties of the above listed positions for no legitimate reason. So, how would the IRS handle such a thing? If a case requires a lien, does that mean they'd have to transfer the case to someone with a thumb? Well, there's another problem with that, because that would mean that only people with thumbs have to put out those out of pocket expenses and would result in a reverse-discrimination lawsuit or something. And the IRS can't hire only people with right thumbs.

[LPC]

That's forcing disability discrimination. This means that if you are missing the thumb on your right hand, your entire right hand, the entire right arm, etc, you are not allowed to perform the full duties of the above listed positions for no legitimate reason. So, how would the IRS handle such a thing? If a case requires a lien, does that mean they'd have to transfer the case to someone with a thumb? Well, there's another problem with that, because that would mean that only people with thumbs have to put out those out of pocket expenses and would result in a reverse-discrimination lawsuit or something. And the IRS can't hire only people with right thumbs.

I think that the IRS has already hired a lot of people who are all thumbs, in order to be ready.

[Quixote]

That's forcing disability discrimination. This means that if you are missing the thumb on your right hand, your entire right hand, the entire right arm, etc, you are not allowed to perform the full duties of the above listed positions for no legitimate reason. So, how would the IRS handle such a thing? If a case requires a lien, does that mean they'd have to transfer the case to someone with a thumb? Well, there's another problem with that, because that would mean that only people with thumbs have to put out those out of pocket expenses and would result in a reverse-discrimination lawsuit or something. And the IRS can't hire only people with right thumbs.

I think that the IRS has already hired a lot of people who are all thumbs, in order to be ready.

In addition, the IRS has cleverly not filled any of the positions referred to in the ordnance. Does a Recovery Revenue Officer collect only from 12 step programs?

[grixit]

And again the reference to a "pocket commission". Is there actually such a thing?

[Famspear]

grixit wrote:

And again the reference to a "pocket commission". Is there actually such a thing?

Yes. See Internal Revenue Manual:

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part1/ch13s06.html

[wserra]

November 29, 2007
Commissioners Tell Group to Take IRS Lien Dispute to Court
By JOHN SOWELL

Take a look at the comments. Not a huge number of them, but they're unanimous that it's past time the wackos got the boot.

Much like the neighbors of Ed and Elaine family:imprisoned.