Ok what's wrong with the article

[The Observer]

I give up

Finally? Victory? After all these years of having to endure goal-post moving, switching positions and arguing for both sides, he finally caves in?

It's a basic liberty to barter not a basic liberty TO MISREPRESENT WHAT YOU ARE TRADING. Trading private minted coins misrepresented as "current money" or in other words "legal tender" to someone would be misrepresenting what they are, you don't have such a right.

No, I guess not.

[Quixote]

The only reason they were able to charge him with money laundering is because the coins were assumed illegal not for any other reason.

Von Nuthouse has been charged? When did that happen?

What "con" are you talking about? Who was conned? Everyone involved in the liberty dollar deal knew what they were getting in to and knew from public posting what they would get if they traded the liberty dollars in.

That is simply a lie. "Everyone" includes the retailers to whom the Libbies were passed. If Nuthouse intended them to know what they were getting into, he would not have suggested that Libbites deliberately attempt to confuse them about the LD's value.

[SteveSy]

That is simply a lie. "Everyone" includes the retailers to whom the Libbies were passed. If Nuthouse intended them to know what they were getting into, he would not have suggested that Libbites deliberately attempt to confuse them about the LD's value.

When did he suggest that people passing liberty dollars should "deliberately attempt to confuse them about the LD's value"?

I think the only person that is lying is the person hell bent on someone being shutdown even though he or anyone else he knows of was not hurt in any way shape or form. Do you have any evidence to show retailers filed any charges or complained about NorFed? Are you basing your opinion on the one instance where a person not affiliated used a liberty dollar in the wrong way? Is this the same instance where the issue was rectified quickly without anything becoming of it?

I suspect all you'll do is come back with more unsupported nonsense based solely on your personal opinion of why liberty dollars should not exist. You've probably never even seen a liberty dollar, except for maybe a picture little alone met any retailer or person using or having accepted them. Until one of you start coughing up complaints made by retailers or users made to the authorities or to the media about norfed they haven't done a damn thing wrong as far as I'm concerned. Same goes with the author of the article and many more I'm sure.

[Famspear]

Unsupported nonsense?

Steve, you still have yet to provide support for your statement:

Minting or creating items for barter or exchange is a basic liberty.

Show us some support for that. Support means AUTHORITY. Authority means actual legal text.

SteveSy wrote:

I give up, it's truly pointless discussing anything with people who ignore what is written or insist on commenting on arguments people did not make.

It's a basic liberty to barter[,] not a basic liberty TO MISREPRESENT WHAT YOU ARE TRADING. Trading private minted coins misrepresented as "current money" or in other words "legal tender" to someone would be misrepresenting what they are, you don't have such a right. You have basic right and the liberty of freedom of speech doesn't mean you can lie about people in public or run around yelling BOMB in an airport.

No, Steve, you yourself stated: "Minting or creating items for barter or exchange is a basic liberty." Yet, you have yet to come up with a single authoritative source that would back that up.

Now, you have backed off a bit, and you are saying "It's a basic liberty to barter[,] not a basic liberty TO MISREPRESENT WHAT YOU ARE TRADING."

Forget about the "misrepresentation" and "lying" crap.

Stated another way: If tomorrow the Congress passes a statute that makes bartering of any kind whatsoever a crime, including TRUTHFUL bartering, and you thereafter engage in TRUTHFUL bartering, and you are charged with the crime of TRUTHFUL bartering, how are you going to convince the judge that the statute is unconstitutional?

Are you going to do that with a bald statement to the judge that bartering is a "basic liberty"?

The judge might respond with "Who says so?"

Is your answer going to be "I, SteveSy, say so"??? Is that it?

Your rhetoric about "basic liberty" means nothing unless you can translate your rhetoric into a legal argument that will hold up in a court of law.

I'm not saying that there isn't some case law somewhere on the right of citizens to "barter" without interference from the government. I'm saying that the burden is on YOU Steve, not other people, to find that case law.

And don't cite "the Constitution," because I sorta doubt that the Constitution even mentions bartering.

[Agent Observer]

Stevesy wrote:

...they haven't done a damn thing wrong as far as I'm concerned.

That's the crux of all your arguments. Too bad, for you, and thankfully for those of us who are sane, that the world doesn't work according to Stevesy. There are these things called laws, which you somehow you manage to misrepresent and misunderstand time after time.

Why the focus on NORFED anyway Stevesy? Perhaps you lost money to them and now you're bitter because you can't recover? I haven't been following the case, but I really wouldn't be surprised to hear they sold a bunch of paper libbies and didn't have the metal to back them up. Since you pound your chest repeatedly about computer lingo, try this analogy on for size: If that's the case, then anyone who bought the paper variety paid for vaporware. If that's ok with you, then I'll sell you 100 acres on the moon for $1.5 Million.

[jg]

When did he suggest that people passing liberty dollars should "deliberately attempt to confuse them about the LD's value"?

Although I can not attribute the following to a particular individual, the site at http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/spend-l ... ospend.htm definitely says in #6 to tell them it is real and valued at twenty dollars;

How to use the Liberty Dollar


Are you having fun with the Liberty Dollar? Thousands of people just like you have discovered the solution to understanding money and are using the Liberty Dollar. And you can to! Here are a few tips to help you use the new currency successfully.

1. Read the Success Stories about how other Americans are using the new currency.


2. Education is an important part of using the Liberty Dollar. Please read all materials included in the kit you received as well as review all content on our website. Most people do not understand how money works. The merchant you are about to use the Liberty Dollar with must know that the Liberty Dollar is private, non-government currency; so it cannot be deposited in a bank. It is not 'legal tender', a 'coin', or United states government money like Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs).

3. Although prudence would seem to indicate that people would refuse a currency they've never seen, this is simply not the case. After thousands of transactions, the Liberty Dollar is readily accepted most of the time. It is meant to be circulated voluntarily as barter, accumulated and collected.

4. Simply offer The Liberty Dollar with the confidence that it will be accepted. After all, why wouldn't it? When you offer the American Express Card, if it is not accepted, they tell you. Likewise, if the store does not accept Liberty Dollars, the cashier will tell you and you can simply pay another way.

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

7. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.

8. Never use a Silver Liberty alone unless the sale is greater than $10 and less than $20. If the total is greater than $20, include the Silver Libertys with FRNs.

9. The Federal Reserve does not require anyone to understand the monetary system to use their currency. In fact, they thrive on the people's ignorance about money. The Liberty Dollar is all about knowing what money is and simply brings choice to the marketplace.

10. Be sure to read lots of Success Stories online that tell how the Liberty Dollar has been actually used in commerce by people, just like you.

11. Email your own Success Story when you have an outstanding experience using the Liberty Dollar. We want to hear from you!

12. REMEMBER: The Liberty Dollar is a PRIVATE inflation proof currency and is NOT United States government currency, 'legal tender' or a 'coin'. Using the Liberty Dollar as barter for products and services at businesses across the country is voluntary.

Now, give the Liberty Dollar a try. Discover the fun for yourself! Make money, do good, and have fun while protecting our purchasing power - one dollar at a time.

-

[The Observer]

Actually nos. 6,7 and 8 all express the intent of passing the libbies as currency.

[notorial dissent]

Ah SteveSy, ever the poster child for the Texas literacy, or is that illiteracy program.

[][]

1. Agreed...the phrase "legal tender" being the key.
2. What does the dollar amount have to do with anything?
3. What "con" are you talking about? Who was conned?
4. The only reason they were able to charge him with money laundering is because the coins were assumed illegal not for any other reason.
5. More importantly just because someone serves a warrant doesn't mean you're guilty, ....
6. He NEVER represented his money as legal tender.
7. I have never seen change provided in FRN's when using a gift card or check for that matter.

1. No, Steve, "legal tender" is a legal definition, as set and established by Congress, and not subject to your interpretation.
2. The dollar amount adds to the appearance of it being true coin, and that is a no no.
3. Get a clue Steve, the con of selling 15 oz of shampoo and charging for 20 oz., the con of trying to pass them off to people who don’t know any better and might take the amount printed on the “coin” at face value.
4. Dumb even for you. The coins were irrelevant to the money laundering charges, they were just an added bonus. He was taking money, converting it to bearer instruments that could then be passed around at will and untraceable. The seigniorage charge was just his cut in the cleaning process, and he was making out handsomely if he was at all competent at it.
5. Gee Steve, did I say anything about that, gee, no I don’t think I did, but that fact that you can means that it has more than crossed your mind and you just don’t want to admit it. However, since they had evidence of money laundering, and since he was also in violation of 18 USC 486, they had every right to seize the implements and products of an illegal act. Same as applies to drug making paraphernalia seizures.
6. Oh contraire mon petite chou, that is exactly what he did, you just conveniently forget von Nutbert’s little 12 step plan for passing the Libbies, that alone will show intent when it comes to trial, and it won’t take a jury long to get the picture.
7. And you most likely never will, since that is one of the by-laws of any of the cards I have ever seen is that once purchased, they are non-refundable and are basically in store credit only. Nice try though.

[Prof]

TOO SNARKY:

Really, referring to Steviepoo as

6. ... [M]on petite chou

should be deleted by the Moderator(s). Snarkiness should not be permitted on the boards without advance warning. Finally, the phrase is "Au contraire ....."

[SteveSy]

When did he suggest that people passing liberty dollars should "deliberately attempt to confuse them about the LD's value"?

Although I can not attribute the following to a particular individual, the site at http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/spend-l ... ospend.htm definitely says in #6 to tell them it is real and valued at twenty dollars;

How to use the Liberty Dollar


Are you having fun with the Liberty Dollar? Thousands of people just like you have discovered the solution to understanding money and are using the Liberty Dollar. And you can to! Here are a few tips to help you use the new currency successfully.

1. Read the Success Stories about how other Americans are using the new currency.


2. Education is an important part of using the Liberty Dollar. Please read all materials included in the kit you received as well as review all content on our website. Most people do not understand how money works. The merchant you are about to use the Liberty Dollar with must know that the Liberty Dollar is private, non-government currency; so it cannot be deposited in a bank. It is not 'legal tender', a 'coin', or United states government money like Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs).

3. Although prudence would seem to indicate that people would refuse a currency they've never seen, this is simply not the case. After thousands of transactions, the Liberty Dollar is readily accepted most of the time. It is meant to be circulated voluntarily as barter, accumulated and collected.

4. Simply offer The Liberty Dollar with the confidence that it will be accepted. After all, why wouldn't it? When you offer the American Express Card, if it is not accepted, they tell you. Likewise, if the store does not accept Liberty Dollars, the cashier will tell you and you can simply pay another way.

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

7. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.

8. Never use a Silver Liberty alone unless the sale is greater than $10 and less than $20. If the total is greater than $20, include the Silver Libertys with FRNs.

9. The Federal Reserve does not require anyone to understand the monetary system to use their currency. In fact, they thrive on the people's ignorance about money. The Liberty Dollar is all about knowing what money is and simply brings choice to the marketplace.

10. Be sure to read lots of Success Stories online that tell how the Liberty Dollar has been actually used in commerce by people, just like you.

11. Email your own Success Story when you have an outstanding experience using the Liberty Dollar. We want to hear from you!

12. REMEMBER: The Liberty Dollar is a PRIVATE inflation proof currency and is NOT United States government currency, 'legal tender' or a 'coin'. Using the Liberty Dollar as barter for products and services at businesses across the country is voluntary.

Now, give the Liberty Dollar a try. Discover the fun for yourself! Make money, do good, and have fun while protecting our purchasing power - one dollar at a time.

-

Sure number 6 all by itself might mean something however in number 7, 30 seconds later: "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver."

I really don't understand how you think you have a point. Like he said people offer American Express at places that do not accept them under the assumption that they might. what exactly is the difference. Each are backed up by the issuer. You guys are doing you best to make a distinction where there is no difference.

[Dr. Caligari]

Sure number 6 all by itself might mean something however in number 7, 30 seconds later: "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver."

Both 6 and 7 make clear what is, in any event, clear from the "$20" on the coin-- it is designed to make people think they are getting $20 worth of silver, when they are not. That's fraud in my book.

[SteveSy]

Ah SteveSy, ever the poster child for the Texas literacy, or is that illiteracy program.

[][]

1. Agreed...the phrase "legal tender" being the key.
2. What does the dollar amount have to do with anything?
3. What "con" are you talking about? Who was conned?
4. The only reason they were able to charge him with money laundering is because the coins were assumed illegal not for any other reason.
5. More importantly just because someone serves a warrant doesn't mean you're guilty, ....
6. He NEVER represented his money as legal tender.
7. I have never seen change provided in FRN's when using a gift card or check for that matter.

1. No, Steve, "legal tender" is a legal definition, as set and established by Congress, and not subject to your interpretation.
2. The dollar amount adds to the appearance of it being true coin, and that is a no no.

Well the word "legal" obviously means something created under the law. Libbies were never represented as being created under the law. Nice try though.

3. Get a clue Steve, the con of selling 15 oz of shampoo and charging for 20 oz., the con of trying to pass them off to people who don’t know any better and might take the amount printed on the “coin” at face value.

They aren't selling something that is not clearly marked with what you will get. As to your second baseless nonsense show where anyone, out of the 2 million liberty dollars issued, made a complaint to the media or authorities claiming they were ripped off, or "conned" by NorFed.

4. Dumb even for you. The coins were irrelevant to the money laundering charges, they were just an added bonus. He was taking money, converting it to bearer instruments that could then be passed around at will and untraceable. The seigniorage charge was just his cut in the cleaning process, and he was making out handsomely if he was at all competent at it.

Jesus....you've done WAY to many drugs.

[SteveSy]

Sure number 6 all by itself might mean something however in number 7, 30 seconds later: "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver."

Both 6 and 7 make clear what is, in any event, clear from the "$20" on the coin-- it is designed to make people think they are getting $20 worth of silver, when they are not. That's fraud in my book.

Hmmm so the coins issued by the treasury with $50 or $20 on them that are not worth $20 or $50 isn't fraud?

Now you can claim "well they're worth more", ya to the person receiving them what about some idiot using them by accident? Maybe an ignorant spouse. It probably wasn't a good idea to use that wording, I'll grant you that. But that wording doesn't make the entire operation illegal. He tells the user to show it's not legal tender.

[Quixote]

Like he said people offer American Express at places that do not accept them under the assumption that they might. what exactly is the difference. Each are backed up by the issuer. You guys are doing you best to make a distinction where there is no difference.

Now Libbies are like charge cards.

My credit cards don't look anything like money. My bank has never suggested that I try to dazzle the sales clerk with the hologram and lie about their chances of getting reimbursed for goods and services I received in exchange for a signed charfe receipt.

[Dezcad]

Hmmm so the coins issued by the treasury with $50 or $20 on them that are not worth $20 or $50 isn't fraud?

If the treasury coins with $50 or $20 on them are not worth $50 or $20, how much would you sell them to me for?

I'd be interested in buying them from you if you will sell them at 15% discount, say $42.50 and $17.50. I'm especially interested in these:

[SteveSy]

Here's a real violation of the law. Didn't see the FBI raiding their offices and they advertised on TV claiming they were "legally authorized", implying the government was behind it.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/ny_coin.html


btw, these are STILL sold on the internet, with no interference from the treasury dept.

For the first time ever, own your own non-circulating Cook Islands legal tender version of the world's most talked about commemorative, the 2005 Freedom Tower Dollar, struck to honor both the World Trade Center and the new Freedom Tower being erected in its place. It's a new dollar from the Cook Islands clad in .999 pure silver recovered from Ground Zero!

[Quixote]

He tells the user to show it's not legal tender.

Maybe. In the same breath he implies, but never states, that they are not legal tender, and also implies that they are money.

[SteveSy]

He tells the user to show it's not legal tender.

Maybe. In the same breath he implies, but never states, that they are not legal tender, and also implies that they are money.

Money:

1.any circulating medium of exchange, including coins, paper money, and demand deposits.

Ummm that includes numerous things almost all are not FRN's.

[Quixote]

Here's a real violation of the law. Didn't see the FBI raiding their offices and they advertised on TV claiming they were "legally authorized", implying the government was behind it.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/ny_coin.html


btw, these are STILL sold on the internet, with no interference from the treasury dept.

For the first time ever, own your own non-circulating Cook Islands legal tender version of the world's most talked about commemorative, the 2005 Freedom Tower Dollar, struck to honor both the World Trade Center and the new Freedom Tower being erected in its place. It's a new dollar from the Cook Islands clad in .999 pure silver recovered from Ground Zero!

The false advertizing was stopped within a month. FBI involvement in a false advertizing case handled rapidly by state authorities would be pointless. And of course, National Collector's Mint sold them as collectables, not as currency.

[Quixote]

He tells the user to show it's not legal tender.

Maybe. In the same breath he implies, but never states, that they are not legal tender, and also implies that they are money.

Money:

1.any circulating medium of exchange, including coins, paper money, and demand deposits.

Ummm that includes numerous things almost all are not FRN's.

But none of them are Libbies.