Not so notable notes for $100 Alex......

[Quixote]

I'm confused. The last I heard, only the Libbie coins were considered to be in violation of federal law. Has something changed to include the notes?

[SteveSy]

Selling $15 worth of product for $20 isn't always a crime, but lying about the product while doing so is illegal in most states and may violate federal law as well.

What did he lie about?

Additionally, by claiming Libby's can be used like real money, when buyers of the items and merchants who get stuck with them discover they cannot be used everywhere like real money, NorFed and NotHaus may have also crossed over into the realm of fraud.

No one said they will be accepted everywhere. I'm sure Amex says their travelers checks can be used like Real money also and many other companies offering gift checks or gift cards. You're taking his words out of context. You're arguing that since he used the term real money its a violation of the counterfeiting laws under the bogus premise that real money is in reference to FRN's. That's just plain absurd. When he uses the term real money it's obviously in reference to money backed by precious metals and not FRN's at all. It's even more absurd considering he labels FRN's as not real money, meaning his use of the phrase "real money" has nothing whatsoever to do with "current money" or anything the government makes as money. He mission was to create anything but a copy of an FRN. Counterfeiting FRN's by his own words would have defeated the liberty dollars purpose.

[Quixote]

Selling $15 worth of product for $20 isn't always a crime, but lying about the product while doing so is illegal in most states and may violate federal law as well.

What did he lie about?

You mean other than saying his illegal coins were legal? My comment was referring to the scheme as a whole, and von Nothaus's suggestion to his downline on how to get $20 of goods and services for the $15 worth of silver they paid $17.50 for.

Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

[Quixote]

makes him an accidental counterfeiter

Is he even being investigated for counterfeiting? The coins are the only NORFED product that even resembles U.S. currency. The coins are almost certainly a violation of 18 USC 486, so why risk confusing the jury with counterfeiting charges? The notes don't come anywhere close to looking like FRNs.

[SteveSy]

SteveSy, try not to be such a blad-faced and lousy bullsh*tter.


Here is the quote from the Liberty Dollar website http://www.libertydollar.org/ "The Liberty Dollar is private, inflation proof REAL money that is devoid of inflation and debt. It's a currency of the people, for the people, and by the people. "

It is about half way down the page, under the heading "100% backed by gold and silver."

A little further down the page, under the heading "Works like US Dollars," it states, "Just as FedEx brought competition to the Post Office and it became incredibly successful, the Liberty Dollar emulates the same model by offering an inflation proof currency. Now you can become incredibly successful too.

The Liberty Dollar brings free enterprise to the creation of money. Doesn't it just make sense that when the underlying commodity increases in value the purchasing power of the currency should increase in value? Well that is exactly what happened in 2005. The Liberty Dollar Moved Up from the $10 Silver Base to the new $20 Silver base and all Liberty Dollars DOUBLED in value. Just imagine, while your US Dollars are losing purchasing power, the Liberty Dollars are appreciating in value and rewarding everyone holding the new gold and silver currency that keeps pace with inflation.

Plus the Liberty Dollar is easy for merchants and customers use because it functions dollar-for-dollar with the US dollar as its "unit of account" is exactly the same. "

I put the site's own words in blue.

So, while his intentions MAY have been good, the execution of it was for sh*t. He gets screwed by his own words. Go ahead, look at the web site, go to the sections I noted and verify the quotes if you like. NotHaus MAY have had a noble idea, but his absolutely horse-cr*p implementation and advertising efforts is what makes him an accidental counterfeiter, which is counterfeiting nonetheless, unless a jury says otherwise - a possibility, since he has not been tried yet.

I'm sorry I just don't get it....He never makes the claim that they are FRN's. In every instance he makes it clear they are different and not FRN's at all. How can you claim something is a counterfeit, an attempt to copy, but yet the item looks totally different for one. Two, have the creator say the thing you claim they're attempting to counterfeit is exactly opposite of what they wanted to create because they feel the thing you're claiming they copied is garbage.

It's simply senseless, you're taking the phrase "real money" out of context. Real money is not in reference to FRN's at all. In fact the author claims "real money" isn't an FRN. lol

[SteveSy]

The coins are almost certainly a violation of 18 USC 486, so why risk confusing the jury with counterfeiting charges? The notes don't come anywhere close to looking like FRNs.

How are they a violation of 486 and a Amex traveler's check isn't. Please tell me what in 486 would make one illegal and not the other? Each have dollars written on them, a $ sign, and are used like cash to buy things with, are not accepted at every retailer and are backed up by a private institution.

[Dr. Caligari]

There are two separate issues here-- did he violate 18 USC 486, and did he attempt to perpetrate a fraud.

The first issue turns on the legal definition of the phrase "current money." I assume there is some case law interpreting the phrase, but I have not researched it. So, for all I know, he may be guilty under section 486, and he may not.

As to the second point, this quote seals the deal for me:

Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

The silver was not valued at $20, or anything close. So I think he's abetting a fraud.

[SteveSy]

There are two separate issues here-- did he violate 18 USC 486, and did he attempt to perpetrate a fraud.

The first issue turns on the legal definition of the phrase "current money." I assume there is some case law interpreting the phrase, but I have not researched it. So, for all I know, he may be guilty under section 486, and he may not.

As to the second point, this quote seals the deal for me:

Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

The silver was not valued at $20, or anything close. So I think he's abetting a fraud.

I agree there's a probability there is fraud there or an accomplice to misrepresentation. Did the warrant mention fraud as a possible crime?

It's questionable though.....what did these sell for on Ebay or at the merchant where you purchase them at? When you buy a treasury gold coin would you be committing fraud if you said the coin was valued at the price you paid if you tried to resell it considering the actual value of the gold is worth less?

Were the people that used the treasury silver dollar when they were around committing fraud when they said "here's a silver dollar valued at $1" when the silver content was valued at less than $1 or does the silver content have little to do with its value?

[natty]

The coins are almost certainly a violation of 18 USC 486, so why risk confusing the jury with counterfeiting charges? The notes don't come anywhere close to looking like FRNs.

How are they a violation of 486 and a Amex traveler's check isn't. Please tell me what in 486 would make one illegal and not the other? Each have dollars written on them, a $ sign, and are used like cash to buy things with, are not accepted at every retailer and are backed up by a private institution.

Because an Amex traveler's check is not a coin.

Section 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes,
or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other
metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money,
whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of
foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this
title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

[SteveSy]

The coins are almost certainly a violation of 18 USC 486, so why risk confusing the jury with counterfeiting charges? The notes don't come anywhere close to looking like FRNs.

How are they a violation of 486 and a Amex traveler's check isn't. Please tell me what in 486 would make one illegal and not the other? Each have dollars written on them, a $ sign, and are used like cash to buy things with, are not accepted at every retailer and are backed up by a private institution.

Because an Amex traveler's check is not a coin.

Section 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes,
or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other
metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money,
whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of
foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this
title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

So the notes are legal then?

[notorial dissent]

Probably not, they don't come under 486, they aren't metal, they come under the counterfeiting statutes that covers currency and documents.

If they had left the legend Liberty Dollar Currency off of them they probably wouldn't have had a problem. Call them currency and they skate over the edge.

Von Nutbert had the opportunity to do it right and do it legally, and at every turning he chose the other path.

Incidently, far from being a spur of the moment thing, the investigation into Liberty goes back to at least 2005, and probably before.

[.]

So, Sybil, other than the fact that you're a stubborn SOB, why have you continued to embarrass yourself through multiple threads totalling hundreds of posts, about a third of which are yours?

VonNutball is clearly going down, the only question is on which charges and how many counts. Take your pick, 486, mail/wire fraud, money laundering, or all of the above.

Ultimately, NORFED will likely file or be forced into bankruptcy. In that event, the holders of coins would then be faced with either selling them as collectible curiousities or melting them down to make any recovery unless they want to run the risks of 486 by passing them to some other bagholder.

The holders of NORFED paper would wind up either playing the collectible game or being general creditor claimants in federal bankruptcy court. Because NORFED may wind up having to pay substantial fines to the feds, any recovery by general creditors may be severely diminished.

Now, tell us all again how wonderful "Liberty Dollars" are.

[SteveSy]

So, Sybil, other than the fact that you're a stubborn SOB, why have you continued to embarrass yourself through multiple threads totalling hundreds of posts, about a third of which are yours?

VonNutball is clearly going down, the only question is on which charges and how many counts. Take your pick, 486, mail/wire fraud, money laundering, or all of the above.

Ultimately, NORFED will likely file or be forced into bankruptcy. In that event, the holders of coins would then be faced with either selling them as collectible curiousities or melting them down to make any recovery unless they want to run the risks of 486 by passing them to some other bagholder.

The holders of NORFED paper would wind up either playing the collectible game or being general creditor claimants in federal bankruptcy court. Because NORFED may wind up having to pay substantial fines to the feds, any recovery by general creditors may be severely diminished.

Now, tell us all again how wonderful "Liberty Dollars" are.

I never claimed liberty dollars were wonderful. I'm simply defending their right to use barter and to do business. It's not like there were a bunch of people complaining about NorFed, in fact I have yet to see a single person that has made a single complaint against NorFed.

I find it ironic that you blame NorFed for not being able to honor their exchange due to the fact that the government stole all the note holders gold and silver. Tell me again how wonderful the government is again.

btw, if you would have been lucky enough to have received one of those Ron Paul coins you would have made a nice profit, a $20 Ron Paul silver coin goes for about $350. Yep, you would have really been ripped off. A $10 year 2000 libby coin is worth about $15 in silver. I seriously doubt the government wins any case against NorFed, no jury is going to convict anyone from NorFed based on what they currently have. They aren't going to fall for all the lame nonsense your group has used to justify seizing all that gold and silver.

The government accomplished its mission anyway, it didn't have to prove its case and it still shutdown NorFed. The government could have done it the honest way and won the civil case that was against them by NorFed. Instead they chose the despotic approach, as they almost always do, with the support of silly fools like you.


You complain that the new issue of coins has a silver content worth about 30% less than the face value in FRN's, forgetting of course the issue just 5 years ago is worth 50% more than the face value. You rant and rave how much of a con this is. What about the FRN that has lost about 95%+ of its value since its creation? The only reason the government is challenging NorFed is to protect that scam the Fed has going on. Just in my life time general goods have almost tripled in price if not more due to the debasing of currency.

If a company wants to come in and offer an alternative I salute them, especially one with notes and coins that end up being worth more than their face value after just a couple of years. People on here keep postulating, "What if the price of silver drops, you'll lose money". Let's drop the what if's and look at what reality is. The FRN has consistently lost value since its creation, liberty dollars have consistently increased value since its creation, prior to the theft by the government of course.

[Agent Observer]

Stevesy wrote:

I'm sorry I just don't get it....

Now that is the single most sane and logical thing you've ever posted here. Oddly enough, it actually applies to everything you've ever posted here too...

I seriously doubt the government wins any case against NorFed, no jury is going to convict anyone from NorFed based on what they currently have.They aren't going to fall for all the lame nonsense your group has used to justify seizing all that gold and silver.

Well, I'm sure NORFED is comforted at receiving the Stevesy seal of approval. I suggest you practice whatever deranged and looney response you will have to the eventual conviction that is likely in store for them. So excuse will you offer then? Evil aliens? Shape shifting lizards? More astounding Stevesy legal reviews? I suggest you refer to the first quote in this post. That pretty much covers it.

[SteveSy]

And when they're not and the case goes no where you'll say?

I suspect it will be something similar to the LR kiddie porn nonsense you all jumped on. You'll excuse the government's BS like you always do and never admit you were wrong about anything.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

Evil Squirrel Overlord wrote:
SteveSy wrote:

I honestly can't see how you are "counterfeiting" by using an item to trade with regardless if it's silver or gold.

But they are not trading. They are instructed to tell the merchant that this is legal money (a means of exchange -- not a barter good) and that the face value represents the value of the coin in USD.

I have to stop you right there. I have not seen anywhere where NorFed instructs the user to claim "it's legal money".

Please read the website. They tell the passer to tell the merchant "it's real". Now I don't know about you, but if I were the merchant somebody telling me it was real money was attempting to pass that money off as legal tender.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

And from Google Cache:

The Liberty Dollar is private, inflation proof REAL money that is devoid of inflation and debt. It's a currency of the people, for the people, and by the people.




They tell the passer to inform the merchant that the coin is worth $20. We already know that the coin has less than $20 worth of silver form the Liberty Dollar site, the passer may know but the merchant does not. (Hence Conspiracy to Commit Fraud by encouraging the passer to pass a token claiming to be worth $20.) So if the merchant takes the coin to the bank and the bank says, "fuck off" then the merchant is out $20 and must attempt to pass this undervalued token or eat the loss.

Don't take wooden nickles either. Especially round TUITs.

The value of the coin is whatever someone determines its perceived value is. How else can it be, a FRN is virtually worthless if you're going to look at what its actual value is, it only has value because it is perceived to have value.

Welcome to the real world Steve. ALL PHYSICAL OBJECTS HAVE VALUE BECAUSE THEY ARE PERCIEVED BY HUMANS TO HAVE VALUE. Diamonds are not as rare as they seem. If the perception of them as objects of desire fade, then the value falls. DeBeers knows this and puts millions into advertising in the US.

You're making a special case for the liberty dollar and looking at what its backed by. That is not in the law for one and two its backed by more than FRN's. So if anything is a fraud its the FRN.

It is not backed by FRN notes or deposits of USDs. It is only backed by the face value of undervalued (in metal) coins they produce, so no matter what the actual deposit for their silver certificates will never be equal to or more than the actual undervalued metal content of the coins. Hence, exchanging FRN to Liberty Dollars will always result in a loss. Better to invest those FRNs directly into than through this scam organization. (The google cach shows an initial 35% loss on face value on the $1 certificate. Silver was at 6.25 and the certificate was valued at 1/10th the price of silver.)

For instance Ron Paul liberty dollars are going for triple their face value, seems to me they're valued at triple their face value. Personally I would take a $20 Ron Paul liberty in exchange for $20 in services....I could sell them for $100+ easily.

20 Ron Paul Liberty Dollars
27 bids currently at $305

We call that speculation. Dumb people are buying up the coins not to use at merchants or pass for metal content, but in hopes that they can sell them at a higher price later. If I had one I would sell it for $305.00 too.

Liberty Dollars without the political candidate are selling for novelty value. I wouldn't be adverse to buying one for my collection at $20. I'm sure if I wait I can pick up a Ron Paul next summer for a easy $15-20. But that's collector's value not face value. I might just do this. I'd be a good story to tell my grandkids. Goes well with my Billy Beer cans and beenie baby. Maybe we will bring them out on Halloween to scare the kids into wise investing.

[The Observer]

So if the merchant takes the coin to the bank and the bank says, "fuck off" ..

Either you bank at Bank of America or else squirrel banks don't put any money into customer service...

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

So if the merchant takes the coin to the bank and the bank says, "fuck off" ..

Either you bank at Bank of America or else squirrel banks don't put any money into customer service...

We are all nuts here!

[Demosthenes]

Nuthouse Newsletter.

December 5, 2007
Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters,
Liberty Dollar Lives! Announcing the Arrest Dollar!
URGENT NOTICE: We are preparing to file the Class Action Lawsuit (CAL) to begin the process to get your property back. PLEASE register for the CAL immediately at: http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php. PLUS, the digital Liberty Dollar (eLD) has been turned on! Now you can check your balance, transfer eLD between accounts and get a digital Liberty Dollar emailed to you so you can be a part of the Class Action Lawsuit. Right now there are over 2500 people on the CAL. We would like to double that to 5,000 names. Please join today.
And in a tremendous show of support for the Class Action Lawsuit, $2000 in eLibertyDollars have been donated towards the CAL. If you need an eLD to qualify for the CAL, just sign up and send in a donation and we will credit an eLibertyDollar to your digital account. PLEASE SIGN UP TODAY… The CAL action is pending. We`are moving aggressively to protect your property that backs up the paper and digital currency.
Now the BIG news. In defiance of the brutal raid that confiscated all of our metals, computers and almost everything, except our free independent spirit… The Liberty Dollar has re-opened and lives with the new "Arrest Dollar"! Thanks to the outpouring of support and the rock solid encouragement from the Regional Currency Offices (RCO), I am proud to be a part of such a staunch organization that refuses to bow to this senseless raid by the FBI and Secret Service that did everything possible to close the voice for Sound Money.
As Jason Hornberger, the President of http://www.FFF.org commented: "If the government wishes to have a business shut down, the law provides a remedy called an injunction, which is a formal order issued by a judge that requires a person or business to cease and desist from engaging in a certain operation."
We have not received any injunction. Nor a cease and desist order. We have not done anything wrong. We stand on the principle that we are innocent until proven guilty. As free men and women we can do whatever we wish… so long as we do not violate the Law. With 33 years in this industry and no knowledge of any crime plus the advise of legal counsel… I hereby announce the Liberty Dollar lives as "Liberty Dollar Numismatics".
Now, don't get me wrong. We have not dropped our goal of "returning America to value' by providing an "inflation proof" currency. Nor have we become just a "collectable" business. We remain dedicated to our original goals. It is just that we must make-do with what we have and what we can do.
The Liberty Dollar office is now re-opened! Sarah Bledsoe, the trusty manager who was at the Evansville office when I arrived from Hawaii, will continue to man the office. Unfortunately, she will be alone, so if you don't reach her, please leave a message.
Our number one mission is to get your property retuned to you ASAP. The single best action we can take is to stay in business… answer the phone… bring comfort to our supporters… act as a call center for media and donations to fight this obvious wrong… and work to cover our legal expenses.
Our current business model is to auction the donated Liberty Dollars on eBay… as we continue to fight for your right to use gold and silver any way you chose and keep the ideals that the Liberty Dollar exemplifies alive.
Announcing the "Arrest Dollar" to help fund our legal defense. Check it out at http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/arrestdollar/images.htm. The new "Arrest" Hallmark has just been created to mark special items issued during these difficult and very limited times too. In all likelihood, the Arrest Dollar will only be available between now and my arrest, as it seems unlikely that I will be doing any hallmarking after I am arrested.
Appropriately, the Hallmark, features "Handcuffs", and will be stamped on special items or any Liberty Dollar products you submit for Hallmarking. As a means to raise funds for our legal defense, the cost is $10 per Hallmark. Currently, a few donated $20, $10, and $5 Silver Libertys have been Hallmarked and are available for $30, $20, and $15 respectively plus $6 for handling and shipping… If you wish to beat eBay before these are auctioned off… please send your order, payable in money orders or check made out to "Bernard", as we do not have a company bank account.
PLEASE NOTE: We could be raided again! You could lose whatever you send to Liberty Numismatics … but if you don't send anything… I regret that we will lose the Liberty Dollar and the ideals it represents. Please give generously and submit whatever you wish to be Hallmarked. Just remember the mail and Hallmarking takes time… plus it is Christmas… and like you, I will be with my family too.
Unfortunately, we do not have a company bank account in Evansville. A money order is the best way to send a donation but checks made out the "Bernard" still work.
Got those dreaded, depreciating Non-Federal Non-Reserve IOU-Notes? Old Liberty Dollars in any form are greatly appreciated too… we need material for eBay. Cash is OK too. All checks and money orders, MUST be made out to "Bernard", as we have no company bank account. Please send everything to the old Liberty Dollar address: 225 N. Stockwell Road. Evansville. IN. 47715.
So do you have a Liberty Dollar to spare for the cause? Certificates, while not suitable for Hallmarking, are particularly sought after for our eBay auctions.
Who knows where we go from here? One of the best ideas I heard was for a Black Sabbath Liberty! As a heavy metal rocker, I could certainly identify with that idea! Seriously, our country is going in debt at nearly $1 million US dollars a minute… over $1 billion a day! US National Debt will hit $10 Trillion in a year! This is a very serious time for us and our money! You must take action. Either change your money or lose it.
As for me, I am innocent until proven guilty. I have an unalienable right of free speech. I refuse to go the showers quietly. Now hear me: The government fiat money is not worth shit! You either change your money or lose it. The longer you wait the more you lose. This country, the world, is headed towards a major monetary crisis. Not since Rome fell has man faced such an immense event. This collapse will make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk. We are headed towards a global hyperinflationary depression. Soon most people will be millionaires in a soup line… if not in prison. Get out of the soup line! The sooner you change your money the more you will make or at least preserve. For your own protection, please take action right now!!! Buy Silver immediately. Support the Liberty Dollar model with a donation. We need a survivable monetary system. We need your help. Please donate $10 or more!
When the Federal Reserve meets on December 11, they are expected to cut interest rates… and that means more easy money… and another step towards a global hyperinflationary depression! These people are mad. This is not going to be just a US problem… When Rome fell, it was the world, as they knew it… This experience would have make Jimi Hendrix flinch! This is no purple haze hallucination. It is real and it will affect you.
On a positive note. I am pleased to receive all your support. Recently the legendary Robert Clarkson of the Patriot Network has come to our aid. Interestingly, he too was raided by the same Agent Andy and had all his seized material returned. Please visit his incredible site at http://www.PatriotNetwork.info. And if you really want to get an insight into the government's war against activists click on COINTELPRO in the left column and then use code 4143 to access Part 3 and 4 and learn the truth about the government's "dismantlment" program against organizations like the Liberty Dollar!
Plus we have received so many comments, we have started a "Comments" page at the top of the Raid Page. Please check out the latest Comment by G. Edward Griffin at http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/r ... entary.htm.
Please support the Liberty Dollar with a Hallmark and a donation. Sign up for the Class Action Lawsuit today! Please don't let the government steal your money and drive the Liberty Dollar out of business.
BIG thanks for all the donations we received!!! Every donation counts!
Bernard von NotHaus
Monetary Architect/Editor
PS: Time to revisit Bernard's Second Law of Money:
"Any government action that purports to prohibit an American citizen from using a piece of gold or silver (or, for that matter, anything) in voluntary barter transactions between consulting adults is preposterous, antagonistic to a free market, and totally without legal merit."

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

"Liberty Dollar Numismatics"

What? The Liberty Dollar is no longer "Real Money" but now a collectible curiosity? Well strap me down and lick honey off my toes! NotHaus must have had a midnight epiphany! Just for that I need to put all my money int eArrest Dollars!